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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: m23to53 on Tuesday 27 April 21 12:15 BST (UK)
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Hi
Has anyone had problems with GRO indexes, printed and online ?
I am currently in correspondence with the GRO as I have a person who appears under one set of names in the printed version and another name in the online birth index, both entries having the same vol and page numbers. They tell me that they cannot tell me which is the correct registered birth name because it is confidential.
I now have another difference between the two - if you search for Minnie F(rances) Loring-Fox you get two results in 1942 in the printed version on the deaths index ! and only one in the online index. You also do not get the Minnie F L Fox death entry in the online version.
I cannot believe these are the only instances of differences between the two forms of the indexes, and does make me wonder which is the best one to use.
Regards
John
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I now have another difference between the two - if you search for Minnie F(rances) Loring-Fox you get two results in 1942 in the printed version on the deaths index ! and only one in the online index. You also do not get the Minnie F L Fox death entry in the online version.
From GRO website
LORING-FOX, MINNIE FRANCES 61
GRO Reference: 1942 June Quarter in PADDINGTON Volume 01A Page 23 Occasional Copy: A
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The two deaths are in different quarters as well! One in June quarter of 1942 so a death between April and June and the other the December quarter 1942, so a death between October and December!
According to the 1939 register her birth was 23 Jul 1880.
On the GRO for her death it just gives the June quarter and says Occasional Copy A. Not recorded with the December one!
LORING-FOX, MINNIE FRANCES 61
GRO Reference: 1942 J Quarter in PADDINGTON Volume 01A Page 23 Occasional Copy: A
It was war time, so I wonder if she was killed in a bombing raid and presumed dead?
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Occasional Copy A usually means that a change has been made to the original registration for whatever reason.
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I have a person who appears under one set of names in the printed version and another name in the online birth index, both entries having the same vol and page numbers. They tell me that they cannot tell me which is the correct registered birth name because it is confidential.
The criteria used when the older printed indexes were compiled is different to the criteria used in the newer indexes which have been compiled and made available online by the GRO. You really need to understand that the purpose of indexing is to create a finding aid and the people doing the old indexes tended to index entries several times if multiple surnames were recorded in the registration or if the names were in any way ambiguous.
Whoever told you the information is confidential is being ridiculous. Just buy the certificates to see the information on them.
Debra :)
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The death entry in the Dec 1942 appears to be indexed (on FreeBMD) under three different names ...Minnie F L FOX, Minnie F LORING-FOX and Minnie F HILL, which will reflect that her name appears as such on the death entry (probably as "otherwise" or "also known as" or "formerly known as").
On the new GRO index, the DEC entry only appears as Minnie Frances HILL which suggests that is the first name that appears on the register entry.
My guess would be that the first entry, in the JUN quarter, only recorded her name as LORING-FOX, and for whatever reason it became important to get that changed. Rather than a correction it appears to have been done as a full re-registration.
The re-registration in Dec would have led to a note being added to the margin of the earlier JUN entry, which would have triggered the submission of an Occasional Copy of that one.
As already mentioned - different indexes are compiled using different rule sets and it is to be expected that the results will differ and it can actually be useful sometimes.
A mismatch between the printed index (as used by FreeBMD), and that in the GRO on-line index will very rarely be an error, just a reflection of the different rules being used.
But there are always other explanations possible - so to be certain, you would need to order a copy of a certificate from each entry and compare them.
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Whoever told you the information is confidential is being ridiculous. Just buy the certificates to see the information on them.
I expect hat's what they meant they couldn't tell m23to53 that information, they had to buy the certificate! If they told people information over the phone, a lot of people wouldn't bother to buy the certificate.
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Hi
Has anyone had problems with GRO indexes, printed and online ?
I am currently in correspondence with the GRO as I have a person who appears under one set of names in the printed version and another name in the online birth index, both entries having the same vol and page numbers. They tell me that they cannot tell me which is the correct registered birth name because it is confidential.
I now have another difference between the two - if you search for Minnie F(rances) Loring-Fox you get two results in 1942 in the printed version on the deaths index ! and only one in the online index. You also do not get the Minnie F L Fox death entry in the online version.
I cannot believe these are the only instances of differences between the two forms of the indexes, and does make me wonder which is the best one to use.
Regards
John
The reason they won't tell you (note won't, not cannot) is because they want you to buy the certificates.
This all started many many years ago when solicitors clerks used to visit the Superintendent Registrars offices and copied entries in the registers instead of purchasing certificates, this was unlawfully stopped by the Registrar General who prevented the Superintendent Registrars allowing access to registers without there being a change in the law.
Cheers
Guy
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Luckily there are only 4 Minnie Frances registered in the apparently right quarter of 1880, two of whom died young. There appears to be marriages for the other two, but no names of grooms matching the names of Minnie Frances who died 1942.
Another thing is the Fox connection. A 1936 electoral roll has her sharing the address with her daughter Elizabeth Ann Loring, journalist and dietician who is also something of a mystery, and a Charles K Fox. While on the 1939 she shares an address with her daughter and a Christopher D Fox, apparently born 1889. Have so far been unable to trace either Fox further as well as the mother and daughter. I assume the truth is out there if I knew where to look. I have assumed her origins were in England, but they may not be.
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How do they link to your family
Death Dec qtr 1977
LORING ELIZABETH ANN date of birth 12 MAY 1904 ::)
ST MARYLEBONE reg dist 14 2033
Can't see an entry on the probate index
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Minnie and her daughter are on the Register, wrongly listed as surname Loving on Ancestry. Must admit that it does look like that name. but the birth date does not match the 1977 death so not sure.
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Oops. I pressed enter by mistake.
Loring is not supposed to be her actual surname according to other sources, and her date of birth varies from 1904 to 1908 to 12/5/1915. No Elizabeth Loring born those years on the GRO Index which does seem to say her birth name was not Loring. Which makes one wonder who Minnie is, has she changed her name too, and is she actually the mother.
John
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Have you got the Dec 1942 death certificate for Minnie and worked out why it seems to have her primary surname as HILL ?
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Oops. I pressed enter by mistake.
Loring is not supposed to be her actual surname according to other sources, and her date of birth varies from 1904 to 1908 to 12/5/1915. No Elizabeth Loring born those years on the GRO Index which does seem to say her birth name was not Loring. Which makes one wonder who Minnie is, has she changed her name too, and is she actually the mother.
John
Are you searching for Elizabeth Ann Loring or Minnie?
You mentioned ‘daughter’ earlier and I was going to ask if she was definitely Minnie’s daughter but you might be doubting that as above. :-\
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More usually known as "Elisabeth Ann" (of the Sunday Dispatch), wrote some books, made a record or two
http://fluffontheneedle.blogspot.com/2014/02/use-your-gramophone-every-morning-and.html
Apart from slimming, it seems that E A Loring had a big interest in the subject of adoption!
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You beat me to it ;)
I was waiting for confirmation and was going to post about her.
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She seems to have been an interesting lady.
They also had someone called Eulalie Lala Adamson with them. Goodness knows who she was!
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1939 register explains her relationship - well the transcription on my site isn’t quite right but you can read her occupation.
She is another elusive person. In 1945 she is elsewhere.
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I think we are digressing here Jon. ;)
1946 Eulalia, 34 yrs left for Basrah, Iraq with Amy Adamson 59 yrs - last address Grimsby.
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It is interesting even though it might be irrelevant.
There are a couple of earlier records for Amy Adamson entering the U.K. - one with a daughter Julie b 1921 (I had thought she might be Eulalia but too young). They are described as ‘Russian’ and residents of Iraq.
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It is certainly interesting, didn't expect Iraq to come up!
Looking at the electoral registers after the war.
1945, Elizabeth Ann Loring still at 175 Sussex Gardens, with, among others, Arthur Lee
1946, Elizabeth A Loring and Arthur E Lee at 21 Cleveland Square, Paddington
1947, Elizabeth A Loring and Arthur E Lee at 6 Spring Street, Paddington (later she is Elisabeth A, and from 1954 it says she and Arthur are in Flat 1)
1958 and 1959, still Flat 1, 6 Spring Street, Elisabeth and Arthur are joined by Louisa R Hill
1960, Elisabeth A Loring and Louisa R Hill at 4 New Cavendish Street, Marylebone (no Arthur)
1961, Arthur E Lee is back with them there!
1962, Now joined at 4 New Cavendish by Gertrude Hill
1964, 1965, Only the three ladies, no Arthur
Death possibility?
June 1963 Marylebone 5d 267
Lee, Arthur E.
age 66
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So now the Hill name appears :-\
Regarding Eulalia, I think she was employed so perhaps not a major figure in finding Minnie and Elizabeth’s origins.
Although, John perhaps has all the necessary details and really just wanted to sort out GRO indexes and we have gone on a detour ::)
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So now the Hill name appears :-\
An outside possibility
Free index to the 1911 census, Thornton Heath, Croydon
We have here a Louisa Hill, 18, and a Gertrude Hill, 13, both born Penge
Daughters of Reginald Hill, 44
and Minnie Hill, 33, born Hadleigh, Suffolk
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW82-1SQ
BUT
Minnie is not their mother!
1901, Reginald Hill, 34, is married to Minnie, 27, but seems to be a different Minnie! Born Esher.
Father in law William Berry with them
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9XZ-91W
Two possible marriages for Reginald
March 1891 Croydon
Reginald Thomas Hill + Minnie Berry
June 1904 Cosford
Reginald Thomas Hill + Minnie Frances Lamb
Poss death of Minnie 1?
March 1902 Bromley 2a 343
Hill, Minnie
age 28
Possible birth of Minnie 2?
Sep 1879 Cosford 4a 542
Lamb, Minnie Frances
Mother's Maiden Surname: Budd
Not checked a lot, it could all fall to pieces!
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Possible birth registration of Louisa?
HILL, LOUISA ROSE
Mother's Maiden Surname: BERRY
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 265
Possible death, if she didn't marry, she was getting on a bit, if that's her with Elisabeth A Loring on the electorals!
July 1987 Kensington & Chelsea 13 1401
Louisa Rose Hill
d-o-b 11 May 1892
Using that info, the free index to 1939 Register has
Louisa Rose Hill, born 1892, living 1 Allen Edwards Road, Lambeth
The two children from 1911 of Reginald and Minnie 2
HILL, GLADYS HARRIET
Mother's Maiden Surname: LAMB
GRO Reference: 1905 J Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 628
HILL, ROWLAND REGINALD
Mother's Maiden Surname: LAMB
GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 319
Looks like the father of Minnie Francis Lamb born Suffolk was called Rowland, so likely named after him (as well as Reginald Hill).
Sadly, a probable early death for Minnie's son
HILL, ROWLAND REGINALD
Age at Death (in years): 20
GRO Reference: 1926 D Quarter in ST. MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 629
His dad seems to have died a few years later
HILL, REGINALD THOMAS
Age at Death (in years): 63
GRO Reference: 1929 D Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 394
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Death Dec qtr 1977
LORING ELIZABETH ANN date of birth 12 MAY 1904 ::)
ST MARYLEBONE reg dist 14 2033
London phone books, late 1970's
Loring Elisabeth A, Editor, 4 New Cavendish St W1...01-935 ****
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My goodness Jon. I read all the Hill info and will have to reread. It looks quite promising though.
Perhaps the death certificate is the way though. Well done Jon.
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Thanks, heywood.
Let's hope it leads somewhere. Not with "Loring" thus far!
If Elisabeth Ann was a daughter of Minnie, and we don't know for sure, then perhaps she was adopted, unless she was Gladys Harriet :-\
Perhaps I'm getting carried away now!
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I've been looking for Minnie Frances in Elisabeth Ann's own paper, the Sunday Dispatch. Thought her death might be mentioned (if so, haven't found it so far!)
Unfortunately I do not have full access :(
But this may be all there is!
9 July 1939, page 9
Mrs. Loring Fox, mother of Elisabeth Ann, Sunday Dispatch Woman's Page Editress, underwent a major operation yesterday in a London nursing home. Mr. Alfred A. Loeser, gynecologist, who operated on Elisabeth Ann successfully 18 months ago, performed the operation.
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Not quite the kind of information you would want to be published :-\
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Sadly, a probable early death for Minnie's son
HILL, ROWLAND REGINALD
Age at Death (in years): 20
GRO Reference: 1926 D Quarter in ST. MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 629
His dad seems to have died a few years later
HILL, REGINALD THOMAS
Age at Death (in years): 63
GRO Reference: 1929 D Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 394
Croydon directory for 1928 has Reginald Thomas Hill at 2 Torridge Road, Thornton Heath.
Unfortunately that may be the last year available.
Seems to have been at that address for quite a few years.
A newspaper story, Norwood News, 16 June 1922.
Terrible free text, but the gist seems to be that Rowland Hill, of 2 Torridge Road, Thornton Heath, and another lad were summoned for playing football somewhere or other, and annoying the residents.
Looks like they were fined half a crown each.
So, apart from that minor spot of bother, all seems normal with the family.
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Not quite the kind of information you would want to be published :-\
I agree, heywood, very strange. Can't see any more on her in there.
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After all our hard work, and the interest shown by many, it would be nice to have a response from m23to53 :)
There are a couple of earlier records for Amy Adamson entering the U.K. - one with a daughter Julie b 1921 (I had thought she might be Eulalia but too young). They are described as ‘Russian’ and residents of Iraq.
1930, and, interestingly, the address given is one in Thornton Heath, 290 Brigstock Road, just a couple of streets away from the last known residence of the Hills. Mrs Millar was listed in the directory and still living there in 1939.
An outgoing record from 1928 has a West Croydon address, and there is a Raynes Park one on an arrival in 1932.
Amy and Julie are in the free index to 1939 at 14 Matheson Road, Fulham. Not sure Julie is open on ancestry, and may be in the end pages.
Amy L Adamson, born 1889, and Julie Grice (Adamson), born 1920.
Marriage, June 1941, Cleethorpes
John R Grice and Julie Adamson
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m23to53 was last active on Sunday.
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I have been trying to follow a couple of Fox's who were living with Minnie and Elizabeth at various times in Sussex Gardens.
One is Charles Kenneth Fox and the one who is with them in 1939 Christopher D Fox with a DOB of 23rd July 1889. But neither seem to exist. :-\
m23to53 do you actually have Minnie's death cert,albeit there do seem to be 2 of them.
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According to the online GRO indexes there is only death regstration for Minnie - in the December quarter - which I have now applied for.
Sorry I have been silent the last few days but another mystery has come up which has grabbed my attention while waiting for the certificate. I must admit I am a little surprised that little has been mentioned the two Fox's and if either could have been the reason for Minnie's Loring-Fox surname - though they seem invisible as far as records go. I also wonder about the Loring name, and if they are in London on electoral rolls under another name. Only 2499 entries to check for Minnie Frances and 104000 for Elizabeth Ann !
AH, a cursory search has found Elizabeth Ann Loring living 69 Hillcrest Gdns, Thames Ditton in 1935 with Christopher and Minnie Frances Fox. Another Ancestry error - does not come up when you search for Loring, only Minnie finds it.
m23to53
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How do they link to your family
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Now have the death certificate. She is Minnie Frances Hill,. otherwise Loring-Fox, widow of Reginald Thomas Hill, architect, died May 1942. I assume he is the Reginald Hill mentioned in earlier posts, though working for a builder on 1901/1911 censuses, though could have bettered himself later. Be interesting to see the family on 1921 census when it appears.
Minnie was his second wife, the first being the former Minnie Berry who died in 1902, the second being Minnie Frances Lamb, born Cosford, Suffolk, 3rd quarter 1879, who married Hill in 1904. I am assuming all this as no other suspects.
The family is on 1911 census, but none of the children are born 1904/1908, the possible main birth dates of E. A. Loring. Wonder where the name came from as it does not appear to be connected to anyone else in the family. There is a family tree for Hill, but it is a bit of a mess with the children because of Hill marrying two Minnies.
Elizabeth Loring is divorced on 1939 Register, but nothing in the National Archive Divorce archive, nor for Gladys Harriett (Hill) if she had married. That 1962 electoral roll entry for Elizabeth Loring and Gertrude Hill is interesting as Gertrude was one of Hill's daughters by his first wife.
I presume Minnie Loring-Fox is a surname based on her daughter's and Fox, whatever his name was, who was her partner out of wedlock.
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Thanks for letting us know the details!
My earlier thought on how Elisabeth Ann might fit in
If Elisabeth Ann was a daughter of Minnie, and we don't know for sure, then perhaps she was adopted, unless she was Gladys Harriet :-\
We know that Elisabeth had a big interest in adoption (during WW2 at least), has anybody found what might have happened to Gladys? Just in case she "adopted" the pen name Elisabeth Ann in real life!
As far as I can see, Elisabeth A Loring is single in 1939. Minnie F Loring-Fox is married. Possibly meaning Minnie is married to Christopher, though it seems unlikely to be true?
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I have found other mystries to solve, including that of 1930s author David Sharp, but going back to Loring I have found on Ancestry the 1951 death in the Transvaal of an Elizabeth Ann Minnie Loring, which sounds suggestive even if no other details are available.
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9BY-R9BS-6
Her occupation was 'domestic duties'.
Parents William Henry JEWELL and Margaret JOHNSTON.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSSB-V9FY-1
Debra :)
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Death Dec qtr 1977
LORING ELIZABETH ANN date of birth 12 MAY 1904 ::)
ST MARYLEBONE reg dist 14 2033
London phone books, late 1970's
Loring Elisabeth A, Editor, 4 New Cavendish St W1...01-935 ****
'Our' Elizabeth Ann Loring was born in 1904 and died in 1977, so presumably not the same person as the one who died in 1951 in Transvaal,as that one was born in 1888.
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Pressed the wrong button !
Cannot find a marriage for Gladys Harriet Hill, the only possibilities for a Gladys H Hill marriage before 1939 being a Gladys Harriet Hill who was born Reigate in 1906, and a Gladys Honor Hill. No apparent death for an unmarried Gladys H Hill born 1905. Suppose a non-England marriage is possible , or even a death abroad
But I wonder. The newspaper archive has articles mentioning Elizabeth Ann Loring, each one mentioning her age agrees with her being born circa 1908. Could she actually be the daughter of Fox whom Minnie has accepted into the family ?
No further forward, except getting that 1977 death certificate. Pity the online GRO indexes do not cover the 1970s yet.
John
,.
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FreeBMD covers up to 1983?
I think Ancestry and FindMyPast cover later dates?
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But the GRO online indexes expand those middle initials which those two don't. Can save you ordering a certificate if the middle names are not those of the person you are researching. Of couse, there are years in the births and deaths which are not available yet. And no marriages yet. I have noticed one thing - you cannot order a PDF of a certificate not listed online.
John
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FreeBMD covers up to 1983?
Freebmd are currently working towards 1992
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It's probably just a coincidence, but I found this on archive.org:
https://archive.org/details/elizabethannatma00lawr/page/18/mode/2up
"Elizabeth Ann Loring was her full name, and she was a little girl seven years old."
This book (Elizabeth Ann at Maple Spring) was written by Josephine Lawrence and published in 1923. The page I linked to above suggests that there was a book before this one that featured a heroine called Elizabeth Ann Loring.
Anyway, just throwing it out there that the name Elizabeth Ann Loring might have been plucked from a children's book.
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Having researched pseudonyms for many years, they are formed generally by relative's names, places the person has been, or something like a name from a book etc. which attracts the pseudonym user. I must admit I wonder about writers like John Fearn or Lauran Paine who used over 50 names and how they created them.
The main issue in this case is the seemingly unsolvable question of what was Elizabeth Ann Loring's birth name which I must admit is lost in the mists of time. Perhaps it is now time to close the book on her and admit her origins were well disguised back in the 1930s, so we have little chance to uncover them today. Many thanks for all you thoughts on this matter.
John