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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Zaphod99 on Wednesday 28 April 21 15:31 BST (UK)
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I am at loggerheads with a relative. We have what I believe to be my great grandmother's marriage record, with her father's name slightly wrong, let's say possibly misheard a bit like 'Josh' for 'Joseph'. My relative refuses to accept that mistakes on marriage records occur, so she won't accept any research that relies on this document. Looking for "mistakes on marriage records" here gets three threads, but I am looking for something more substantial, that will show mistakes are even made on important formal papers.
Zaph
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Josh is often used as an abbreviation for Joseph. Like Jno for John
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I have a very unusual surname in my tree. If it occurs then it's one of mine!
In the late 1880's a daughter married and the father (who should be John) is down as James.
But with John's profession.
I take it they didn't notice that on the cert,or they couldn't read well enough to see that it was wrong.
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How big an error was it? Could the father have had a middle name or a nick name that was used for example.
Mistakes happen everywhere and that's a fact of life. Don't fall out over it :)
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You say that the marriage certificate is for great grandmother - so not recent. :)
As a matter of interest did both parties sign the register? If not then they probably wouldn't realise that any error had been made.
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Errors do occur on official certs, depending on how accurate the information given was (its always to the best of the informant's knowledge), how well it was heard, whether or not the informant could read and spell it if asked etc.
Difficult to hazard an opinion without knowing the details.
Other points to check are witnesses (?known relatives?), ages of bride and groom, occupations for all concerned, including fathers.
Is the info for the bride all as expected?
Are there any (no matter how much of a long shot) other options in the marriage index?
Given the groom's age are there any other births around that time that could possibly be this man with the 'not quite right' Dad's name? Is there any record of perhaps a baptism for a child with the groom's name with a father's name that matches that on the marriage record?
Did the groom have siblings? what do their marriages say about their father's name? Maybe it wasn't his 'Sunday' name but a sort of nickname he was known by?
Proving something that all adds up is a lot easier than trying to ascertain if there was an error on a cert donkey's years ago. If you have exhausted all other avenues/ possibilities and have other plus points for this being the right marriage sometimes the best you can do is to say that 'on balance' its likely to be the correct record.
Not something to fall out over though. Your relative, like you, has to come to their own 'on balance' conclusion based on the info they have. The fact that you don't agree is just a difference of opinion.
Boo
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Zaph,
I've got one marriage record (for my husband's ancestors) that has the fathers' occupations switched.
Another marriage record (my great-grandparents') states that the bride's father was an actor (he was a bricklayer).
The marriage records for the children of one of my ancestors either lists their father's actual given name or his nickname and his occupation varies. I've found documentation for the names and the occupations but, without those, I would not be certain these were all children of the same man. (It took a while to put it all together.)
I've got marriage records for the children of two other ancestors: some list either a different given name or a slightly different middle name or an entirely new middle name for their father.
One of my husband's ancestors was illegitimate. Her marriage record lists a father's name that turns out to be her own surname (her mother's maiden surname), plus her stepfather's given and last names (for example, let's say her surname was Cook, and her stepfather's name was John Smith: her father's name was recorded as John Smith Cook). I don't know if she gave his name as such, or if the minister misunderstood, but it took me a while to sort that one out, too.
My great-grandmother gave birth to my grandmother in a maternity home. In her papers, her father was listed as dead (he wasn't) and she also gave them the name of a half-brother, which sent me on a merry chase, only to learn that he wasn't related to her in any way.
My great-grandfather's sister was married twice. Her first husband died. Her marriage record to her second husband gave her married surname as her maiden name. She had children with her second husband. On those children's birth registrations, she listed her first married surname as her maiden name. I was in touch with one of her grandchildren, who informed me that his parent's birth record listed the mother's maiden surname as (the first husband's surname), therefore I was barking up the wrong (family) tree and we were not related. In this case, I had other family records and knowledge of her surname from her second marriage, and it's an unusual name, so I didn't give up on trying to prove the relationship. Later, I was able to purchase copies of the birth records from the GRO, and three out of four had been amended to list the mother's actual maiden name.
People -- including clerics and registrars -- made mistakes; people gave differing information based on their own personal knowledge; and sometimes people lied. When every single detail doesn't line up correctly, the best we can do is make our case for why we believe a record is the correct one. Someone else might not accept our reasoning but that's okay.
Regards,
Josephine
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Mistakes are made even relatively recently. My parents married at a London church in the mid 1940's. They followed a marriage between another couple with the same first names, but different surnames.
When the certificates were received my Dad was married to the other woman and my Mum was married to the other man. It is really only because by then everyone was literate that the mistake was spotted but they could easily have the kept the incorrect certificate had they not realised.
Pheno
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Josh is often used as an abbreviation for Joseph. Like Jno for John
That was just an example. I could have said George/Geoff or Albert/Bertram, different but close enough for easy soundalike confusion, or copying error.
More welcome please. I might sway my cousin. Ta for so far.
Zaph
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"I am at loggerheads with a relative" WHY ??? I would tell them to go and do their own research!
Of course there are errors on offical records, on a marriage cert the only 'real' information is the date/place the rest is given information which could be a lie, or a mistake not picked up as the people marrying didn't read/write or they just missed the error
My great grandfather married twice on his first marriage he names his grandfather ( who brought him up) as his father, on the second marriage cert he names his uncle who he was working with at the time as his father and yet his father was alive.... Another side great grandparents one lied about her age she said she was 10 yrs older than she was as she was marrying an older man the other said he was a bachelor ( he was a widower)
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I’ve got one from about 1900 where the forenames of the fathers were switched.
Something like George HAMILTON and John MARSHALL. Instead of John HAMILTON and George MARSHALL
Luckily for me it was a second marriage for the bride and a sister signed her full easily recognisable name neatly!
A family I am working on at the moment for a friend have all so far been literate, with excellent handwriting. On one of those marriage records in the 1700s the vicar has heard the bride’s name as having a D in the middle. But the bride has clearly signed with a T in the middle.
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I have given some examples on other threads, but it would take me ages to list all those I have found doing my own, my husband's and friends trees.
I have come across numerous examples of grandfathers, uncles and brothers named as the father on the marriage certificates of illegitimate people. My mother-in-law was illegitimate, she didn't even know the name of her mother until I sent for her birth certificate when she was nearly eighty, she only had the shortened version. She was brought up in foster care. On her first marriage in 1937 the Father's name was correctly left blank, on her second marriage in 1954 her foster father was named as her father.
Then there are the two marriage certificates I have for one man who describes himself as a bachelor on both marriages, having failed to obtain a divorce from his first wife. As far as I can tell, his bigamy was never discovered.
The only certificates that I can be sure that the facts are 100% correct, are my own marriage certificate, two sons birth certificates and the death certificates of the people for whom I was the informant.
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I registered my mother in laws death and the Registrar made an error on the death certificate, cant remember what it was. She nulled the certificate that she had used, corrected the error and printed a new certificate. If the error hadn't been noticed and I couldn't read, it would have remained on the certificate and nobody would have been any the wiser, and this is only 5 years ago!
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My own entry for my birth on the England and Wales Birth Index is wrong. Completely wrong forename. The only reason I know its me is because of the combination of my surname and mothers maiden name, which is rare.
It's a sound-a-like of my somewhat unusual first name, so I have a feeling it was maybe communicated over a phone or shouted across a busy office. ;D
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Golly..do you have to have a passport in the wrong name?
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No because my birth certificate is right. It's just the index for some reason.
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No because my birth certificate is right. It's just the index for some reason.
Phew!
I know someone whose name is spelled incorrectly on her birth certificate, another way on her drivers license and neither of those is the way she actually spells it. So every time she has to do something official she has to make sure she uses the “correct” version!
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Blimey that sounds like a nightmare!
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I am at loggerheads with a relative. We have what I believe to be my great grandmother's marriage record, with her father's name slightly wrong, let's say possibly misheard a bit like 'Josh' for 'Joseph'. My relative refuses to accept that mistakes on marriage records occur, so she won't accept any research that relies on this document. Looking for "mistakes on marriage records" here gets three threads, but I am looking for something more substantial, that will show mistakes are even made on important formal papers.
Zaph
Of course mistakes are made, but when people say a birth record is wrong or a marriage record is wrong it may not be.
It could very easily be that the registrar or clerk copying from the register to the certificate has made a mistake, one example of this is available here
http://anguline.co.uk/cert/marr_cert.html
I had to apply for a marriage certificate for my mother's marriage shortly after her death in 2004, as I did not want to send the original certificate I had in case it got lost in the post. On the new certificate her maiden name was given as IMY instead of GUY.
If simple mistakes like that can be made when both her father's name and mother's maiden & married names are shown on the register in modern times when I assume the clerk is literate, it is not surprising that errors would be made in earlier times when many people were perhaps semi-literate.
Cheers
Guy
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What document are you looking at -
church record?...image of handwritten document?...transcription?
civil record?...image of handwritten document ?...transcription?
What document is the relative looking at -
church record?...image of handwritten document?...transcription?
civil record?...image of handwritten document ?...transcription?
There must be more than just a slight variation, such as the example you are giving, to cause two researchers to differ. I wonder how either claim can be supported.
When and where was the event?
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If the research is backed up by other records, then it is OK to just discard it as a simple error. Info given was only as accurate as what was being told. Of course this applies to birth and death certs as well as marriage.
A man I knew was born in 1964 in Doncaster to Jamaican parents, his birthday was always believed to be Nov 8 but his funeral service card said 1st September 1964. Hard to say which is the correct one, he died in 2008 of a rare lung illness. The only way to be totally sure would be any hospital records if he was born in hospital but they will not be open to the public. A conflicting DOB can add doubt into the mix even for people alive today or who were born in the 20th century.
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My Great Great Grandmother had the wrong first name for her Father as well. John instead of William although his occupation was correct. No family witnesses. Her place of birth was not correctly listed in the censuses and her age was 5 years out.
In short I thought I knew who she was but I couldn’t be 100%. The not quite right info could be explained by the fact that she was orphaned by the age of 5. Eventually the 1939 register that listed her date of birth (although a year out) proved her to be the correct person.
That’s one example on my tree, I have others ;D
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Thanks all, so far.
Wivenhoe, we are both debating the image of handwritten document.
Zaph
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So could you post it for us all to have a look at?
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Just a thought - your relative doesn't agree with the record which you believe to be correct - OK. BUT has your relative come up with anything to confirm their theory?
Yes, we can all agree to disagree, but if someone is being so pedantic, then surely that person has to come up with the evidence. :-\
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No, she has no alternative idea, and the document doesn't actually show anything other than the fact that the father's name is a diminutive but obscure alternate.
I think I've got enough here to convince here that she can't exclude it totally.Thanks.
Zaph
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I had problems with a wrong father's name on a wedding cert.
My husband's paternal grandmother's family was the problem.
I had her family (I believed) and sent for her wedding cert. - different father's first name.
Started again looking for her family but couldn't place the father's name with a daughter of her name. Her age was consistent on all documentation and could only find one birth in the area over the couple of years I looked at, I sent for the birth cert. . I was back at my original family. More confusion.
About a year later I searched again and up popped an adult baptism for the lady, it named her parents, they were same as her birth cert., the marriage cert. was wrong.
Wondered what the reason was, a misheard name, but they were completely different . Mix up with another couple or just a rushed job. Whatever it was, fortunately a recently found DNA cousin has also proved it's the correct family. ;D ;D ;D
Eveyone makes mistakes, even on official documents.
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Mistakes are human, we all make them!
A recommended read for us all........
There is a vast documentation of the omissions and errors in the civil marriages recording system based upon a 1 per cent sample at the GRO.
The two volume research project published in 1998 by Michael Whitfield FOSTER as 'A Comedy of Errors or Marriage Records of England and Wales 1837-1899'.
This deserves to be re-published as now second-hand copies have become very sought-after and therefore expensive.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Michael-Whitfield-Foster/e/B001JSCDBG%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share
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Every time I appear on RootsChat, I say it -
He/She who never made a mistake, never made anything.
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Thanks all, so far.
Wivenhoe, we are both debating the image of handwritten document.
Zaph
Is it a post-1836 marriage certificate, and if so, is it a copy from the church register or local register office, or is it a copy from the GRO?
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When I had the occasion to give information in person to the local registrar I was informed that if I wanted to change anything I had to do it quickly before the volume was completed and a new volume opened up. otherwise I'd have to pay for the Registrar having to search for the original volume entry. Maybe our ancestors knew about some errors but hadn't noticed until much later when they knew they'd have to pay to have changes made.
Last week, I posted a photo online of some old pals. I wasn't certain how to spell one person's surname, was it Rege----" or "Regi----"? So turned to the Yorkshire bmd website. Surprisingly there was no sign of his marriage or birth. I then turned to the freebmd website and thankfully the pal's name was listed where it should be and it was "Rege----" .
The Yorkshire bmd site had translated the surname as ROCHESTER . When on earth does an "eg" look like "och"?
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Thanks to all contributing. I think I can show my cousin that an alternate or diminutive form of a name is quite common, and that real errors are more common than she or I thought.
Sloe Gin, it is the church record that is in question.
I now realise that first name abbreviations were common, and might have been wrongly expanded by a vicar, such as Edw., Geo. Etc. I also found this document very useful, although it specifically refers to GRO errors.
Handout: Just How Accurate is the GRO Index? & How to Locate ‘Missing’ Entries
A Talk by Celia Heritage
www.chfh.co.uk
Zaph