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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: JD46 on Thursday 29 April 21 18:12 BST (UK)

Title: Norman name?
Post by: JD46 on Thursday 29 April 21 18:12 BST (UK)
I have traced my family line back to John Crowhurst (1480-1540), who married Margeret de Shernfold (1480-1548). Her name is obviously French, and her family seem to have owned land. This makes me wonder if the Shernfolds were descended from the Normans. Can anyone help?
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: Rena on Thursday 29 April 21 20:09 BST (UK)
I have traced my family line back to John Crowhurst (1480-1540), who married Margeret de Shernfold (1480-1548). Her name is obviously French, and her family seem to have owned land. This makes me wonder if the Shernfolds were descended from the Normans. Can anyone help?

You need somebody who has more ideas on the Norman conquest than me.  I believe the spelling of "Margeret" has no bearing  on the questions you are posing.  I believe the French equivalent of the English Margaret is "Marguerite".

This webpage shows Crowhurst to be an early place name@
https://opendomesday.org/place/TQ7512/crowhurst/

There's an historic house in Shernfold Park but I can only find mention of it being built in 1855.
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1028366

This is in the historic village of Frant, which is described in Genuki
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SSX/Frant.

It's a puzzle why Margeret had the separate "De" between given name and surname; unless her surname was DeShernfold/D'shernfold, with the "De" joined to the stem, which is usually how modern day surnames are shown.  . 

Surname became law circa 1068, with names being chosen from the place people lived, or the occupations they had., or on a person's looks/traits.

Best Wishes.
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: TreeSpirit on Thursday 29 April 21 20:12 BST (UK)
...  Margeret de Shernfold (1480-1548). Her name is obviously French, and her family seem to have owned land.

Maybe ... , but maybe not if her name has a link to Shernfold Park:
http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/browse/id/5328722eb47fc40c360003f3
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: Rena on Friday 30 April 21 00:31 BST (UK)
...  Margeret de Shernfold (1480-1548). Her name is obviously French, and her family seem to have owned land.

Maybe ... , but maybe not if her name has a link to Shernfold Park:
http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/browse/id/5328722eb47fc40c360003f3

Well done - I didn't know that web site existed !
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: markheal on Friday 30 April 21 01:20 BST (UK)
...  Margeret de Shernfold (1480-1548). Her name is obviously French, and her family seem to have owned land.

Maybe ... , but maybe not if her name has a link to Shernfold Park:
http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/browse/id/5328722eb47fc40c360003f3

Well done - I didn't know that web site existed !
...  Margeret de Shernfold (1480-1548). Her name is obviously French, and her family seem to have owned land.

Maybe ... , but maybe not if her name has a link to Shernfold Park:
http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/browse/id/5328722eb47fc40c360003f3

Well done - I didn't know that web site existed !

Useful website..... Are there an equivalents for Scotland, Wales and Ireland?
http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/about
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: Vance Mead on Friday 30 April 21 04:47 BST (UK)
As Rena has noted, this must be Shernfold in Frant, Sussex.

Here is John Crowherst in Frant, Sussex, in Common Pleas in 1529.

Third entry:
Sussex. Jury between Thomas Rayner, of Maresfeld, querent (plaintiff) and John Crowherst, of Frentt, husbandman, for debt.

This entry is calling for the sheriff to empanel a jury.

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1060/aCP40no1060fronts/IMG_4898.htm
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: Vance Mead on Friday 30 April 21 05:07 BST (UK)
Here's a slightly earlier Common Pleas case, from 1523.

Second to last entry:
Sussex. George Nevyle, knight, Lord Bergevenny versus William Maynard, senior, of Retherfeld, husbandman; Thomas Hotheley, of Retherfeld, husbandman; John Crowherst, of Frante, husbandman or yeoman. Debt of 100 marks (about 67 pounds) from each of them.

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/H8/CP40no1038/aCP40no1038fronts/IMG_0028.htm
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: JD46 on Friday 30 April 21 10:31 BST (UK)
Thank you for the replies everyone. I am curious about the lady John Crowhurst married, in around 1498. ‘Margeret de Shernfold’ certainly refers to Shernfold in Sussex. Does that mean her family owned land there (a manor?). Why the use of ‘de’? Was that common at the time? Or does it suggest some kind of Norman ancestry? As I understand it, William parcelled out land to his followers after 1066, who then referred to themselves as, for example, ‘Roger de (i.e ‘of,’ or ‘from’) Smithfield’ (meaning Roger, ‘from’/‘owner of’ the manor or land around Smithfield). Was she descended from a Norman who was given, or seized, land in Shernfold?
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: Vance Mead on Friday 30 April 21 11:04 BST (UK)
"de" just means from, in either Latin or French, usually without any suggestion of Norman descent. The records from Common Pleas that I posted earlier are in Latin. John Crowherst, for example, was "de Frante".
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: spendlove on Friday 30 April 21 11:53 BST (UK)
Hi,

Searching Google came across the following research on a number of families, including some on John Crowhurst who married Margaret IN Shernfold Park.  It comes with, what I consider, a warning that the information if from Ancestry.
https://www.ponting-family-history.org/vol-iii-appendix-d/

From what records have you obtained the name Margaret de Shenfold?

To discover land ownership you need to find which Manor Frentt and the land called SHERNFOLD  came under. Then see if the Manor Court Rolls have survived searching these for who was the Lord of the Manor and who the copy holders were.

My ancestors lived in Shottle Park, this was an ancient hunting park, and were of (de) Shottle Park however they did not own it.


Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 30 April 21 14:22 BST (UK)
"What's in a Name? Your Link to the Past?"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/familyhistory/get_started/surnames_01.shtml
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: Vance Mead on Friday 30 April 21 18:14 BST (UK)
Going back before John Crowhurst/Crowherst in Frant, here are some earlier Crowhersts in Teston, Kent, about 15 miles away, near Maidstone. I can't say if they are connected at all.

Will of John Crowherst of Teston / Barming, 1510
http://vulpeculox.net/history/kwills.htm
Teston and Barming are two adjacent parishes near Maidstone

Common Pleas, Hilary term 1514, Third to last entry:
Kent. John Maplysden, versus John Pokyll, of Thorneham, husbandman; Richard Manfeld, of Fryndysbery, husbandman; William Crowherst, of Teston, husbandman; John Smyth, of Borden, wheeler; Richard Kete, of Mepeham, husbandman. Debt.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no1005B/bCP40no1005Bdorses/IMG_0899.htm
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Saturday 01 May 21 16:55 BST (UK)
I found a couple of records with "de Threlfall" written in - and I wouldn't think there are many less French-linked families* than that! Often it was - especially in court records, down to whoever was writing it all up.
*Lancashire all the way through, apparently
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: venelow on Sunday 02 May 21 01:33 BST (UK)
Hi JD

As Yorky suggests the use of De + place name seems to be a common way to describe a person by naming where they lived in the time frame you are looking at. I have also seen this in connection with my own name which is an English place name and a very Anglo-Saxon one at that. After a time the De was dropped and the place name became a surname.

It appears that before the large house called Shernfold Park was built in the 19th Century there was a place called Shernfold within the parish of Frant. Maybe a hamlet or maybe just a farm.

I think you may find this book, which you can read online, of interest.

https://theweald.org/d10.asp?bookid=eeles999

Best wishes
Venelow
Title: Re: Norman name?
Post by: markheal on Sunday 02 May 21 03:46 BST (UK)
"de" just means from, in either Latin or French, usually without any suggestion of Norman descent. The records from Common Pleas that I posted earlier are in Latin. John Crowherst, for example, was "de Frante".

Is there any general rule to merge 'De' with the place name or to stay separate 'de'

i also wonder wonder about the usage in my family from Chew Magna Somerset.  This John [below] was Church Warden and his handwritten notes in the records are quite pernickerty about the spelling of his family surname which of course vary and confuses!

JOHN At Heal or Atheal or Heall OR HEAL Church Warden at Chew Magna
1648–1710
BIRTH 18 JUL 1648 • Ellbrough, Hutton, Somerset, England
DEATH 24 NOV 1710 • Bishop Sutton, SEE NOTES Chew Magna