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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: MrsS2012 on Thursday 29 April 21 22:41 BST (UK)
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Hello everyone,
I’ve just been having another dig around in my family tree after quite a long break away and am still really really stuck on my great grandmother! I thought looking it over again with fresh eyes would reap some results but so far no good.
Her name was Emily Hales and apparently she was born around 1904 in Islington. I found a birth record for a Emily Hailes for 1904 in Stepney but not sure if this is her? She married Herbert Douglas in 1921 and George Davies in 1946.
My Nan never spoke about her grandparents, I don’t know if she knew them or not?
I believe Emily’s father was called Frederick as I have her second marriage certificate to George Davies and she has put her father down as Frederick and his occupation as a leather worker?? (difficult to make out the second word) he was deceased in 1946 when she married George but other then that I know nothing about him and haven’t been able to find anything that fits.
Not sure where else to try. Although I have found quite a few records relating to Emily and Frederick Hales I have such limited info I don’t know if these records relate to them or not?
My mum remembers her mum saying that Emily was abandoned as a baby but unfortunately my Nan had a bit of tendency to make things up so not sure where to go with this?
Any advice and tips welcomed.. been out of the game a while so could be missing something obvious!!
Thank you!
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Have you looked for her on the 1939 register to establish her full birthdate?
The 1904 birth has mmn Brenan
Have you looked for a Frederick Hailes/Hales on the 1911 census?
When & where did she die?
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Why do you think Emily was born in Islington? You need the first marriage certificate, not the second. She would have only been 17 years old so her address and the witness names might hold some clues. You also need to see the details she gave then about her father.
Debra :)
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Going by what appears in the 1939, Emily is on her own, no Herbert with her, this is most likely to be her birth registration.
HAILES, EMILY BRENAN
GRO Reference: 1904 S Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 01C Page 377
Using the Hales spelling does not bring up a birth in the SQ of 1904
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Not sure what to think here. Herbert appears to have married twice.
Marriages Dec 1912
Barnett Alice M Douglas Willesden 3a 551
Douglas Herbert E Barnett Willesden 3a 551
Marriages Dec 1921
Douglas Herbert E Hales Kensington 1a 300
Hales Emily Douglas Kensington 1a 300
I can find Herbert with an Alice and son George in the 1939
Going by the birth date this would appear to be Herbert's birth registration
DOUGLAS, HERBERT ERNEST SCHNEEGANS
GRO Reference: 1886 M Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 24
On the face of it, it appears that Herbert committed bigamy with Emily.
There is a death for Herbert E Douglas in 1947
Deaths Mar 1947
Douglas Herbert E 61 Willesden 5f 721
Gives a birth year of 1886 which would match the birth given above.
There is a probate record for this Herbert. Address was 5 Wood Close, Kingsbury, London. Died 12th February 1947. Probate to George James Douglas. This address is the same as the one in the 1939 Register.
If anyone has a sub to Ancestry you can see the marriage cert for the 1912 marriage of Herbert to Alice. It comes under the heading of London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754 - 1932. This would give you Herbert's father's name which could be checked with the 1921 marriage with Emily.
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I've found what looks like the right Herbert in the 1891 census.
Living at Dunmow Road, West Ham, London & Essex with widowed father George and siblings.
Registration district West Ham
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 1314
Folio 78
Page 43
This looks like his parents marriage
Marriages Jun 1872
DOUGLAS George Islington 1b 329
SCHNEEGANS Rosina Islington 1b 329
You really need to get the 1921 marriage certificate to see who the fathers are of both Herbert and Emily.
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30 November 1912 - St Mary, Willesden
Herbert Ernest Douglas, 26, Bachelor, Tin Smith. Father: George (deceased), Ironmonger's Assistant
Alice Mary Barnett, 28, spinster. Father: James (deceased), Platelayer
Witnesses: Arthur Edgar Douglas and Annie Eliza Barnett
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there is this death in June qtr 1940 which fits with the age of Emily, (assuming Herbert was similar age). Again, need that marriage cert.
Douglas Herbert E 35 Islington 1b 282
I thought could be this birth
Births Mar 1905 (>99%)
Douglas Herbert Edward Islington 1b 334. Mother's maiden name BLAKER
There is a marriage - image of cert is on Ancestry
Feb 22 1889
William DOUGLAS 21 bachelor footman father Joseph DOUGLAS deceased a Miller
Louisa BLAKER 23 spinster father Albert BLAKER a Shoemaker
both at 3 Palmerston Road, South Acton
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Published tree with that information has several daughters born to Emily and Herbert so I imagine MrsS2012 has the right Herbert.
The marriage details are not given though - just Emily’s father as Frederick.
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Thanks for looking up that marriage BumbleB. Looks like I found the right census record then.
There is a brother called Arthur E in that 1891 census and his birth registration gives the second name as Edgar. Dad is also an ironmongers assistant in that census.
So if the 1921 marriage shows dad as George, it would suggest that Herbert committed bigamy.
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See replies #7 and #8 :)
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You're quite right Heywood, we could be looking at two people with the name Herbert E Douglas.
One as Herbert Ernest (1886) and the other as Herbert Edward (1905).
Only the 1921 marriage certificate will clarify that and it is not on Ancestry as an image.
I can't find a 1904/05 Herbert in the 1939.
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No I can’t either :-\
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But Herbert Edward is at same address as Emily on 1939 electoral roll.
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I can see them in Electoral registers 1938 at 11 Beaumont Road and 1939 at 6 Miranda Road but not in 1939 registers :-\
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Thank you for all the responses everyone.
My great grandfather Herbert was born 8 Jan 1905 and died 4 May 1940 so the Herbert who married in 1912 wasn’t him.
I say Islington for Emily’s birth as this is what is what is recorded on her death certificate, which I have a copy of. (She died on 16 July 1981 in Dagenham) It actually lists her dob as 30 Jun 1901 but it’s 1904 on the 1939 reg and my Nan seemed to think it was 1904… she could have been fibbing I guess!
I have a photocopy of her second marriage cert to George Davies but not the first. Her father is definitely listed as a Frederick Hales. I did look for a Frederick Hales on the 1911 census but although I found a few I didn’t know which one matched? I’ve been looking to find a Frederick and an Emily together but if the story of her being abandoned is true they may not have lived together?
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Right, ok, so he was Herbert Edward then. As has already been suggested it would be a good idea to obtain the 1921 marriage certificate to see what names appear on it for Emily's father and witnesses.
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I have a copy of her 1946 marriage certificate which states her father as a Frederick Hales. Witnesses are F G Baker and F K Gibbons (don’t know who they are at the moment).
Do you think it’s also worth getting hold of the 1921 cert to see if it says anything different?
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‘It actually lists her dob as 30 Jun 1901 but it’s 1904 on the 1939 reg and my Nan seemed to think it was 1904… she could have been fibbing I guess!’
She might have been ‘fibbing’ to make her age closer to Herbert’s.
The first marriage certificate would be useful for reasons already given.
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Ok, I’ll get that ordered then.. might give me some answers. Be useful to know if her father was alive in 1921 even, might make it easier to track him down :)
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Yes definitely. Unless you get it you have no means of being sure if this is the same Emily. You certainly need to know what name is given for her father, his occupation, what age she gives (not that that is necessarily going to be accurate!) and who the witnesses are.
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I have just found a 50 year old Frederick Hales living at 42 Hereford St in Bethnal Green with a wife and several children. One of them being a Rose Emily Hales born in 1901. Wondering if this could be her. She did call her eldest daughter Rose Emily so I’m wondering if that could have been her given name and she just called herself Emily.
Could be totally barking up the wrong tree but I might look into this family a little and see if I can find anything that connects them. The occupation for Frederick doesn’t match… he’s down as a Railway Porter but he could have changed his profession by the time Emily remarried in 1942. ???
I will do a little digging I think… and order the 1921 marriage certificate in the meantime for more clues!
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Interesting....I can find a birth registration for Rose Emily but not corresponding to her apparent date of birth on the 1939.
HALES, ROSE EMILY CAVILLE
GRO Reference: 1899 D Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 135
Needs some more digging around as you suggested MrsS
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I think we can discount that Rose Emily. This looks like her marriage
Marriages Jun 1930
Hales Rose E Moule Bethnal G. 1c 329
Moule Edward W Hales Bethnal G. 1c 329
She is on the 1939 with a birth date that would fit the DQ 1899 birth registration. Her mother is with them.
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What are the details for Emily on 1939 register which you say you have?
Annette
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Not a lot. On her own, birth year 1904, place Luton, Beds. Shows her second married name. Is that enough for you to find her yourself?
We can't give full details from the 1939 at the moment. If anyone wishes to have full details it has to be done through the pm system. Ridiculous really because if you can see them, they are, in theory, deceased. ::)
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Not a lot. On her own, birth year 1904, place Luton, Beds. Shows her second married name. Is that enough for you to find her yourself?
We can't give full details from the 1939 at the moment. If anyone wishes to have full details it has to be done through the pm system. Ridiculous really because if you can see them, they are, in theory, deceased. ::)
I am sure my iPad shows completely different records to everyone else!
I can’t see Emily in Luton in 1939.
I can see Herbert Edward and Emily as mentioned earlier in Islington in 1938 and 1939. I have checked those addresses with no joy for 1939 register.
Very strange :-\
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Sent you a pm Heywood.
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Thanks GG.
Just to help anyone else, without breaking too many rules, she is transcribed as ‘Lemily Dougles’ on one popular site. :)
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Good grief! Wonder who transcribed that one then ::)
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Haha yes I found that!!
The Emily Douglas on the 1939 reg is definitely her. But didn’t give me any more clues as to who her parents were :(
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Well let's hope that the 1921 marriage certificate is more illuminating then. Do let us know what it says when you get it.
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Thank you - wasn't expecting her to be out of London.
Annette
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Going by what appears in the 1939, Emily is on her own, no Herbert with her, this is most likely to be her birth registration.
HAILES, EMILY BRENAN
GRO Reference: 1904 S Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 01C Page 377
Using the Hales spelling does not bring up a birth in the SQ of 1904
Don't think this is her - appears to be a dau. of a Charles Hails and Mary Jane Brennan married 1893 Stepney BUT looks like this person died 1905 Poplar as Hales (mother died 1906).
Annette
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Going by what appears in the 1939, Emily is on her own, no Herbert with her, this is most likely to be her birth registration.
HAILES, EMILY BRENAN
GRO Reference: 1904 S Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 01C Page 377
Using the Hales spelling does not bring up a birth in the SQ of 1904
Don't think this is her - appears to be a dau. of a Charles Hails and Mary Jane Brennan married 1893 Stepney BUT looks like this person died 1905 Poplar as Hales (mother died 1906).
Annette
I don’t think this is her either, as I suspect she was actually born in 1901, this is what is recorded on her death certificate. However I haven’t been able to find a record for a Emily Hales in 1901. I’ll definitely let you all know when I get the certificate ordered and it arrives!