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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Stanwix England on Friday 30 April 21 15:58 BST (UK)
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I'm sorry if this is a stupid question. In the past, Ancestry seems to have always made the link but it hasn't done so this time.
I'm looking at a marriage for a James Turner, 1837, October in Sunderland.
The reference number is Volume 24, Page 223. Then for some reason at some point someone has written in pen next to it 4498/5
I think he married an Anne. If I find all the Anne's who married in Sunderland, 1837 in October - would the right one be the one who was on Volume 24 page 223. Or is that just nonsense?
Thank you
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Using FreeBMD, you can list all people who married in the relevant quarter and Registration district.
Then you have to try to spot the bride that COULD be Vol 4, page 223!
Often the early, hand-written, page numbers can't be identified -look for numbers with a square bracket in them - e.g. 2[2]3.
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Thank you
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These 2 are referenced under that number
Marriage Dec 1837
HUNT Sarah Sunderland 24 4498/S
TURNER James Sunderland 24 4498/S
COMMENT on freebmd -- original page number of 233 had a handwritten amendment of 4498/S
This suggests that the certificate may have been amended :-\
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That's very interesting.
If it's Sarah, then its not the one I'm looking for - but I am curious about what the amendment might have been.
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It can have been anything including a mis-spelling of a name that was then amended.
That marriage was on 7 Dec 1837 at Monk-Wearmouth
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There are details that give James' father as John and Sarah Hunts father as Francis.
Tazzie
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That marriage was on 7 Dec 1837 at Monk-Wearmouth
There are details that give James' father as John and Sarah Hunts father as Francis.
James & Sarah Turner are on 1841 census with Margaret age 3 and Sarah age 1, his occupation sawyer
HO107; Piece: 310; Civil Parish: Bishop Wearmouth Folio: 33; Page: 12
Confirming mmn of Sarah
TURNER, SARAH mmn HUNT
GRO Reference: 1840 J Quarter in SUNDERLAND UNION Volume 24 Page 238
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Maybe if OP tells us where they have their James Turner with wife Ann we can help find the right marriage :)
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Thank you so much everyone.
Unfortunately rosie99, I don't have much more information. All I know is that John Turner was a pilot (I'm assuming in the navel sense) and that he had a daughter called Maria Ann in July 1839, Sunderland.
I found a baptism that fits for Maria Ann, in July 1839 and got Anne's forename from that.
I've tried looking for other children by this couple, but could not find any.
I found a few children between a John Turner and a Sarah, so I think that's either a different couple or the same John but a different wife to Ann.
That makes me think the marriage I have been looking at is not the correct one.
Thank you everyone for the help, I will keep looking.
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From the GRO index
TURNER, MARIA ANN Mothers maiden surname GILPATRICK
1839 Sept Quarter in SUNDERLAND UNION Volume 24 Page 272
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TURNER, ISABELLA mmn GILPATRICK
GRO Reference: 1841 Dec Quarter in SUNDERLAND UNION Volume 24 Page 290
TURNER, SARAH mmn GILPATRICK
GRO Reference: 1845 June Quarter in SUNDERLAND UNION Volume 24 Page 315
Baptisms have them with mother Sarah
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There is a marriage for a James Turner to a Jane Gilpatrick on 30 May 1824 at Monkwearmouth.
First witness is Elizth Gilpatrick, second witness is A Robson
Both were of the parish of Monkwearmouth.
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Bear in mind that parsons or their clerks could sometimes get names, especially the mother's, wrong!
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Thank you everyone, I appreciate all the help.
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Unfortunately rosie99, I don't have much more information. All I know is that John Turner was a pilot (I'm assuming in the navel sense) and that he had a daughter called Maria Ann in July 1839, Sunderland.
I found a baptism that fits for Maria Ann, in July 1839 and got Anne's forename from that.
Is this the baptism you mean
Maria Ann Turner bpt 26 Aug 1840 Bishop-Wearmouth, Durham
daughter of James & Anne Turner
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There is also a transcription of this baptism in Durham baptisms. Father is named as James, a pilot and the address is given as Warren Street.
It is also worth having a look at Durham Records online which shows a death for a Maria Ann Turner in 1840 age 1 with the address Warren Street.
This shows an earlier birth and death of a Maria Ann Turner - parents James Turner a pilot and Sarah Gilbracken, address Warren Street. See link below.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D8Q9-Q9G?i=582&wc=9K5M-168%3A13618101%2C32548301%2C32664302&cc=1309819
And this is probably her burial
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6SC7-XF5?i=94&wc=9K59-6TP%3A13618101%2C32548301%2C32759601&cc=1309819
Perhaps have a look at these census images for a James Turner in Warren Street. A Maria is present in 1851 but not 1841. James has the occupation of waterman in 1841 and fisherman in 1851.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQBH-5TB
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M76V-SJJ
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGVM-TNZ
The 1861 census may have James living in Silver Street. Newspapers show death of wife in 1851 and son James in 1854.
William
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Perhaps have a look at these census images for a James Turner in Warren Street.
A Maria is present in 1851 but not 1841. James has the occupation of waterman in 1841 and fisherman in 1851.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGVM-TNZ
The 1851 census above has Sarah TURNER born c1804 Blyth Northumberland
Possible baptism for Sarah
Sarah GILPATRICK Birth 29 Jun 1803
Baptism 21 Aug 1803 Horton By Blyth, Northumberland
Father: Henry Gilpatrick Mother: Jane Hunter
some other entries parents names as above
Elizabeth Gilpatrick Birth 3 Feb 1799
Baptism 31 Mar 1799 Horton By Blyth, Northumberland
Elizabeth Gilpatrick Birth 3 Mar 1801
Baptism 31 May 1801 Whickham, Durham
Ann Gilpatrick Birth 4 Feb 1807
Baptism 26 Apr 1807 Horton By Blyth, Northumberland
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Hi, just wanted to say sorry I haven't been on here and said thank you for the latest help. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around it all. I appreciate it all, thank you.
Edit: I'm a bit befuddled. Apologies if I'm talking rubbish here.
So it seems like this family had three Maria Ann's over the years. The Maria Ann who was born in 1836 and died in 1838. Another Maria Ann who was born in about 1839/40 and died in 1840.
Obviously then, neither of these can be 'my' Maria Ann - because I know she lived on into adult hood.
Yet 'my' Maria Ann consistently says across future census records that she was born in 1839 or at least gives an age that points to her being born in 1839.
And yet, there is clearly a Maria on the 1851 census with a James and Sarah, who seems to have been born in 1841. This families information seems to fit well with the James Turner I have on the marriage certificate for my Maria Ann, as the occupations could feasibly work.
So the only way that would fit, If I'm not talking rubbish, is if Maria Ann was mistaken about, or lied about her age, for some reason. Perhaps to appear slightly younger than her husband?
Or I've got entirely the wrong family and there was another James Turner who had a daughter called Maria Ann.
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Personally I wouldn't view it as lying about here age. Remember back then lots of people didn't read and write. Dates were not as important to people then compared to us now days. I have lots in my tree that change dates, swoop names from first to middle name as this is what they are know by. You need to research each variant until each one can be discounted. This can be time consuming but also help get great results.
Good luck in your research.
Regards
Panda
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Can I ask whom did Maria Ann marry? What exactly does it say on the marriage certificate - does it give an address? Who were the witnesses?
( I was pushed for time when I submitted my earlier post and should have added that I was simply adding the information provided to the mix and suggesting that the James and Sarah family should not be immediately discounted . I totally agree with the points made by panda40).
William
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Can I ask whom did Maria Ann marry?
What exactly does it say on the marriage certificate - does it give an address?
Who were the witnesses?
Maria could have married Robert Grayton in 1860?
taken from your GRAYTON thread here's the link https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=848173.0 for anyone looking
Some years ago, I found a marriage record that I believed fit.
It was for the 26th August 1860, in Sunderland.
I have just received the certificate today and it says that Robert Grayton married a Maria Ann Turner. His father was Charles Grayton (deceased) and he has the occupation of Seaman. His deceased father was a joiner.
Is this Maria’s death entry?
Maria A Grayton age 80 (born c 1836)
Dec 1916 Sunderland Volume: 10a Page: 644
I don't have much more information.
All I know is that JOHN Turner was a pilot (I'm assuming in the navel sense) and that he had a daughter called Maria Ann in July 1839, Sunderland.
I found a baptism that fits for Maria Ann, in July 1839 and got Anne's forename from that
I assume John Turner was named as her father on the 1860 marriage cert. to Robert Grayton
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Hello everyone, thank you for the continued help!
The full information on the certificate is
1860, at the Parish Church in the Parish of Sunderland in the County of Durham.
No: This either says 51 or 57. Not sure.
26th August 1860.
Robert Grayton age 22, Bachelor, Seaman.
His address is hard to read so I might have to upload a picture of that to the other forum to get some help on that. It's number 2 something anyway.
Then it says Charles Grayton, deceased, Joiner.
Maria Ann Turner, age 20, Spinster. No profession noted.
Her address is also hard to read but I think it's 22 Burleigh Street. Father is James Turner, Pilot.
Witnesses are John Rafferty and Eleanor Francis.
Strangely it only says that Maria Ann Turner and Eleanor Francis did not sign themselves and left their mark. However, all the handwriting looks the same to me, as if Robert Grayton and John Rafferty didn't sign their own names either.
Marriage was by banns, curate was Robert Fisher.
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Maria Ann Turner, age 20, Spinster. No profession noted.
Her address is also hard to read but I think it's 22 Burleigh Street.
Father is James Turner, Pilot.
Previously you mentioned her father was named John ???
Is it possible this could be Maria on 1851 census as MARY A Turner father JOHN :-\
Piece: 2397 Folio: 182 Page Number: 47
44 Burleigh St
JOHN Turner 35 pauper seaman
Ann Turner 33
MARY A Turner 9
John W Turner 7
William O Turner 4
All dittoed born Sunderland
Not found John W or William O Turner’s birth reg on GRO indexes to confirm mmn
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I hadn't noticed that, Ladyhawk, sorry.
I think my dyslexia is playing me up here. Having looked at it again, it does look like it was James not John, but I wouldn't want to bet my house on it as the copy is a bit faint.
The record that you uncovered would make more sense wouldn't it, being as it's the same street.
Apologies for the wild goose chase! :-[
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Having looked at it again, it does look like it was James not John, but I wouldn't want to bet my house on it as the copy is a bit faint.
As you are unsure is it possible that you can add a snippet of the m/c to show her fathers name.
Still looking to see if I can find John, Ann, Mary A, John W & William O Turner on the 1861 census to either rule them in or out
EDIT to add snippet of 1851 census confirming his name is definitely JOHN
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Thanks for providing the information I requested. I had hoped for a Silver Street address!
Burleigh Street is where Robert and Maria Grayton (surname transcribed as Grayson in the index I used) are recorded in the 1861 census at number 14.
For information going through the censuses Maria Ann is actually recorded as older than previously suggested.
1861 22
1871 33
1881 44
1891 54
1901 64
1911 74
The probable death record for her in 1916 gives her age as 80. Accordingly the most common birth years inferred from all these records would be 1836 - 1837.
William
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The probable death record for her in 1916
The burial register records her as the wife of Robert Grayton, so I'd say it was definitely her
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-J98V-C?i=863&cat=825808
Edit: here is the grave register showing Maria and Robert buried in the same plot
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-7N7D?cat=825808
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Strangely it only says that Maria Ann Turner and Eleanor Francis did not sign themselves and left their mark. However, all the handwriting looks the same to me, as if Robert Grayton and John Rafferty didn't sign their own names either.
Presumably this copy of the marriage certificate came from the GRO and it is not an actual photo copy of the parish register. In that case it would be the copy of the register entry which the church person would have filled in on and sent to the GRO.