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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Dulciebun on Monday 03 May 21 15:29 BST (UK)

Title: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Dulciebun on Monday 03 May 21 15:29 BST (UK)
Please help me track DAVID TIMINEY (Timoney, Timney perhaps) who tantalisingly pops up just once, on the 1851 census, then seems invisible.

Can you locate him, backwards or forwards? Has his surname got mangled in the indexes?

1851 census
David Timiney is a lodger along with JOHN TIMINEY (David's younger brother? or cousin?).
Both born Ireland. I think David's age is 28; what can you see?

The host family is McInany (later sp. McAneny) in Old Monkland, Lanark, and their lodgers David & John are (I believe) coal miners at this point.

[1861 census: The McAnenys shift to Bothwell, but the Timineys are not with them again.]

What happened to David?

Thank you, Dulciebun
Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Milliepede on Monday 03 May 21 15:37 BST (UK)
It's transcribed as 28 but I can't see the original to check. 

Where was John before and after or have you lost him as well? 
Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Milliepede on Monday 03 May 21 15:45 BST (UK)
No David but there are 3 Timmony lodgers born Ireland in Old Monkland Lanarkshire in 1861

James 29
Edward 24
John 24

in case the same family as David

Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Pennines on Monday 03 May 21 19:05 BST (UK)
Looking at the original census David's age does look like 28 - giving a birth year of c 1823. John is 18 (birth year c 1833)

I cannot see David on any other census at the moment. I suppose it's always possible he returned to Ireland, or are you aware of some later event for him?

I cannot see a birth in Ireland around 1823 - BUT events before 1830 ish can be difficult to trace in Ireland, especially if the people were R.C.
Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Dulciebun on Monday 03 May 21 19:51 BST (UK)
It's transcribed as 28 but I can't see the original to check. 

Where was John before and after or have you lost him as well?

Milliepede, thank you.

(Pennines has verified the age of 28 by kindly looking at the original.)

When stuck, I attack things from different angles - I'm actually looking for a John Timoney (spelling of surname flexible) and the John 'Timiney' here on the 1851, aged 18, therefore birth c. 1833/4 is a strong candidate. It's reasonable to assume this John is closely associated with the David and, since the combination "David + Tim(o)ney" is really quite rare, I thought I would chase David and see where it led. But he disappeared!

I've found my John on 1861,71,81,91 (spelled hilariously wrongly every time) and he died in 1901. But I haven't pinned him down before 1861 and I need to.

I have spotted a Timoney/Timney family which uses David, then Peter, then David then Peter etc down several generations... it's in County Durham (coal mines) at the end of the 19th century... and on the 1851 census David Timiney is a coal miner...but I can't fill in the time-gap.

When someone's not visible I've found them sometimes in the Forces; also in jail...

Thanks for showing me the further Timmony lodgers, I hadn't spotted them.  The John aged 24 in 1861 seems a little too young,  but you never know. I'm attracted by the 1851 mcAneny/mcInany household because this surname is in family stories, so I'll keep hunting for the David for now.

D x



Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Dulciebun on Monday 03 May 21 19:58 BST (UK)
Looking at the original census David's age does look like 28 - giving a birth year of c 1823. John is 18 (birth year c 1833)



Pennines
Thank you for consulting the original for us, appreciated. I get quite frustrated with what I can see of Scottish census entries because I'm always thinking "Has it been transcribed correctly"? and I currently have no means of checking. Which online site do you use?

As I've mentioned to Milliepede, I was chasing David Timminy to see if it led to a family situation I could use - but he's tough to track.
 
Do you happen to know what proportion of people did return permanently to Ireland after coming to England for work (19th century)? I haven't often found people who 'went back', but you may have a better idea... was it quite common?

D
Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Pennines on Monday 03 May 21 20:30 BST (UK)
D.

For the actual Scottish census records and BMDs etc there is Scotlands People

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
However you have to purchase units to view actual records.



Most purchases are made using Credits which cost 0.25 each and are available in batches of 30 (7.50) or 40 (10).

All credits are valid for two years and will expire at the end of two years unless further credits are purchased in that time.

It's free to register on the site.


However you can view actual birth, marriage and death certs with these units (Scottish death certs are very informative and give both parents' names, including maiden names.)

Birth certs also informative -- give the date and place of a parents' marriage.

You have the benefit of being able to look up a census on either Ancestry or Family Search -- so you can see the details you actually want -- ie less chance of spending units on Scotlands People on an incorrect result!

I don't know whether it was common to go back to Ireland I'm afraid. It was just a thought, as he has 'disappeared' and of course - no Irish census records at that time.

The other problem is not knowing where in Ireland they were born.

If John married - he may have named his eldest son after his father.

There is a baptism for a John Timony 26/11/1832 at St Patricks, Belfast -- father Peter, mother Mary Kelly, but the only sibling coming up for him is an Arthur in 1831. So frustrating unfortunately.
Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Dulciebun on Monday 03 May 21 20:53 BST (UK)
D.

For the actual Scottish census records and BMDs etc there is Scotlands People

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
However you have to purchase units to view actual records.



Most purchases are made using Credits which cost 0.25 each and are available in batches of 30 (7.50) or 40 (10).

All credits are valid for two years and will expire at the end of two years unless further credits are purchased in that time.

It's free to register on the site.


However you can view actual birth, marriage and death certs with these units (Scottish death certs are very informative and give both parents' names, including maiden names.)

Birth certs also informative -- give the date and place of a parents' marriage.

You have the benefit of being able to look up a census on either Ancestry or Family Search -- so you can see the details you actually want -- ie less chance of spending units on Scotlands People on an incorrect result!

I don't know whether it was common to go back to Ireland I'm afraid. It was just a thought, as he has 'disappeared' and of course - no Irish census records at that time.

The other problem is not knowing where in Ireland they were born.

If John married - he may have named his eldest son after his father.

There is a baptism for a John Timony 26/11/1832 at St Patricks, Belfast -- father Peter, mother Mary Kelly, but the only sibling coming up for him is an Arthur in 1831. So frustrating unfortunately.

Pennines
I don't mind paying to see a record, if I'm (almost) sure it's the correct one. And those Scottish records sound very generous in what they provide. But it can get very expensive if you're just needing to browse, in the hope of finding what you want.

My John 'Timney/Timoney' claimed he was born in Belfast. His age is quite steady on the censuses and his Death cert. and so a birth for 1834-ish is a good bet, although the baptism could be a bit later.

John did marry, late in life, and he gave his father's name as James. But then John named his first son Henry. However John's 2nd and 3rd sons do conform to the Irish naming patterns - so I've wondered long and hard why we have James and Henry. (Was 'James' untrue? John was a fair way from Belfast when he married.)

I haven't been able to look backwards far enough in Belfast records, because the sites I can see, don't seem to cover the 1830s. Can you see? (Please don't incur any costs on my behalf!)

D

Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Pennines on Tuesday 04 May 21 09:58 BST (UK)
D.

I have checked Roots Ireland (being a nerd I subscribe to that!) -- no John born to a James. Irish Genealogy (free site, just in case you don't know) and Ancestry.

The only one I can find at the moment is a John Timoney, baptised 21 June 1837, so a bit late -- father James, but in Leitrim and Sligo. That's on Ancestry BUT the image is practically illegible - so I'm going off the transcription.

Usually - when I say I can't find something - another Rootschatter does and makes me feel like plonker - so I hope this happens for you.

Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Dulciebun on Tuesday 04 May 21 10:48 BST (UK)
D.

I have checked Roots Ireland (being a nerd I subscribe to that!) -- no John born to a James. Irish Genealogy (free site, just in case you don't know) and Ancestry.

The only one I can find at the moment is a John Timoney, baptised 21 June 1837, so a bit late -- father James, but in Leitrim and Sligo. That's on Ancestry BUT the image is practically illegible - so I'm going off the transcription.

Usually - when I say I can't find something - another Rootschatter does and makes me feel like plonker - so I hope this happens for you.

Pennines
hahaha you're lovely. And far more experienced than myself, and very helpful.

I've come back to this John Timoney bapt. 1837 Sligo again and again - and now you've mentioned him too, you've given me luck and I'm feeling that this John is likely to be right. Because, you see, this John's father James Timoney was (99% certain) a soldier with the 6th Dragoons (Inniskilling) who went here there & everywhere in Ireland & England & Scotland between 1820 - 1842 and took the family with him, wife and kids. (He retired to Manchester.) So this John Timoney bapt. 1837 could have been born when the soldiers were in/near Belfast, yes, and baptised in a spare moment when his father James was back at what he considered his home base (Leitrim).

So I'll abandon the search for that David Timiney [in fact I've found a 'David Timney' being tried for manslaughter, Durham, 1875] and that may be what happened to this guy.

Request: If you subscribe to Roots Ireland, may I please ask you to check for a Mary NIXON who some folk on Ancestry believe was James Timoney (soldier)'s wife? The dates given for her are about 1800 - 1840 but I can find no mention of her on any of the sites I can see.

Big thanks, D

Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Gibel on Tuesday 04 May 21 12:19 BST (UK)
The David Timney charged with manslaughter in 1875 was aged 14.
Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Dulciebun on Tuesday 04 May 21 12:28 BST (UK)
The David Timney charged with manslaughter in 1875 was aged 14.

Aged 14?
Blimey.
That doesn't show up on the index I've got. So it's essential to consult the details, thanks for looking :-)

Further to my previous message to Pennines, I think the John Timoney in Sligo is also unsuitable, since his age at baptism is now coming up as 0, therefore born 1837, not 1834/5 as I'm wanting. Unless, of course, he didn't know his true age: e.g. my John's son Henry Timoney, whose birth date can be seen by me (150 years later), was unsure of the correct year and (without any attempt to deceive) seems just to guess, when asked.

OK, so where is that David Timiney once he's left Old Monkland? There ought, at the very least, to be a record of death?

D

Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Pennines on Tuesday 04 May 21 14:00 BST (UK)
D.

Have you seen the Family Tree on Ancestry for a John McTimoney -- or is that your tree? He was supposedly born in 1834 Belfast, with a father James b 1799.

There is an entry in the British Army records for a Jas Timoney. Unfortunately it's just an entry in a Pension book dated 6th Nov 1842 giving this Jas an age of 43 - born in Dromahain? Leitrim. No other useful info for him. He was leaving the Army presumably with a pension, due to a persistant cough.

Neither your John nor David are coming up in Army births.

Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Dulciebun on Tuesday 04 May 21 14:33 BST (UK)
D.

Have you seen the Family Tree on Ancestry for a John McTimoney -- or is that your tree? He was supposedly born in 1834 Belfast, with a father James b 1799.

There is an entry in the British Army records for a Jas Timoney. Unfortunately it's just an entry in a Pension book dated 6th Nov 1842 giving this Jas an age of 43 - born in Dromahain? Leitrim. No other useful info for him. He was leaving the Army presumably with a pension, due to a persistant cough.

Neither your John nor David are coming up in Army births.

Pennines
I'm very wary of taking the contents of any Ancestry tree as 'truth' because so many of them are wrong. [I'm a professional researcher/biographer in another field, and it makes me hyper-careful.] I think using Ancestry is an enjoyable hobby for many people (and why not), but they often don't trouble to back up their 'finds' with records or proper evidence, and the trees fall apart as soon as you go in deeper.   

I've been in touch with a number of owners of Timoney trees, who have supplied more info. than you can see on Ancestry online.  The James Timoney/Tumney [6th dragoons] would be a very good bet in many respects, if only there were a solid record for a son John. Sigh.
     My John's first son Henry was desperate to join up with the dragoons in the 19th century - why? Nobody can say. Henry managed to get himself into the Hussars, light infantry.  Why was he pulled this way? Something in the genes?
     We also know of a 19th century 'Uncle Jimmy, who fights'... so who was he?

Do you know any unconventional ways of busting through seemingly impossible blocks?

D

Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Pennines on Tuesday 04 May 21 14:49 BST (UK)
I completely agree with you about taking other family trees as gospel -- however the 'John' in that tree tended to match yours with the same birth year and a comment to the effect 'claims he was born in Belfast'.

The father was shown as James with reference to an Army background -- all things, which you had mentioned.

I wish I did know of conventional or unconventional ways of breaking through brick walls, D! Irish research can be SO very frustrating. (Also -- mine never seemed to remember their age!)
Title: Re: David TIMINEY, where did he go after 1851?
Post by: Dulciebun on Saturday 08 May 21 10:30 BST (UK)
D.

Have you seen the Family Tree on Ancestry for a John McTimoney -- or is that your tree? He was supposedly born in 1834 Belfast, with a father James b 1799.

There is an entry in the British Army records for a Jas Timoney. Unfortunately it's just an entry in a Pension book dated 6th Nov 1842 giving this Jas an age of 43 - born in Dromahain? Leitrim. No other useful info for him. He was leaving the Army presumably with a pension, due to a persistant cough.

Neither your John nor David are coming up in Army births.

Pennines
I'm very wary of taking the contents of any Ancestry tree as 'truth' because so many of them are wrong. [I'm a professional researcher/biographer in another field, and it makes me hyper-careful.] I think using Ancestry is an enjoyable hobby for many people (and why not), but they often don't trouble to back up their 'finds' with records or proper evidence, and the trees fall apart as soon as you go in deeper.   

I've been in touch with a number of owners of Timoney trees, who have supplied more info. than you can see on Ancestry online.  The James Timoney/Tumney [6th dragoons] would be a very good bet in many respects, if only there were a solid record for a son John. Sigh.
     My John's first son Henry was desperate to join up with the dragoons in the 19th century - why? Nobody can say. Henry managed to get himself into the Hussars, light infantry.  Why was he pulled this way? Something in the genes?
     We also know of a 19th century 'Uncle Jimmy, who fights'... so who was he?

Do you know any unconventional ways of busting through seemingly impossible blocks?

D

Just a message to everyone watching this post - I'm not prepared any more to engage with Rootschatters outside of this public system, because of a really bad experience. 
 Please don't send me Private Messages.
 Please write to me only on here with your suggestions (gratefully received, as ever) and let everyone see what is written.

And - to the contributor who knows who they are - please don't add anything else to this thread, you are not welcome.

Still searching for DAVID TIMINEY or any similar spelling...
Thank you.

Dulciebun 8.5.2021