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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Lesleyperry on Monday 10 May 21 02:12 BST (UK)
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Looking for Louisa Jane MORRIS b. 1876 Bridnorth on the 1901 census. I can't seem to locate her.
There is a marriage record for her in 1903 married to either John JORDAN or William Henry BUCKLEY so I think she must be on the 1901 census and that her name/place of birth has got "mangled up" somehow.
Louisa MORRIS b.1876 Bridnorth was listed on the 1891 census working as a servant in Chorlton on Medlock for John M. LINGARD and family.
Her sister (possibly) Alice E. MORRIS b. 1874 Bridnorth was working as a servant in Didsbury in 1891 (and is possibly my great-grandmother). Alice ELLIS b. 1874 Wolverhampton on the 1901 census (and 1911) living in Stockport, Cheshire is my great-grandmother.
In 1881 Alice E. DAYUS and Louisa DAYUS were living with their parents Thomas MORRIS and Louisa nee DAYUS near Bridgnorth (Quatt).
Thank you for any information.
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Isn't she Fanny Louisa?
MORRIS, FANNY LOUISA
Mother's maiden surname: DAYNS
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in BRIDGNORTH Volume 06A Page 644
In 1881 Alice E. DAYUS and Louisa DAYUS were living with their parents Thomas MORRIS and Louisa nee DAYUS near Bridgnorth (Quatt).
In 1881 Polly and Alice are recorded as DAYUS/DAYNS, Louisa is recorded as MORRIS, born Eardington.
Debra :)
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The names Thomas Morris and Louisa Dayas appear together on the Bridgnorth marriage register in June Q 1875.
I cannot find a matching record for the birth of a Louisa Jane circa 1876.
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There is a marriage record for her in 1903 married to either John JORDAN or William Henry BUCKLEY
Where was the wedding?
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September qtr 1903, Chorlton Registration District
Vol 8c, page 1361
Morris Louisa Jane
Buckley, William Henry
or
Jordan John
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As explained earlier, she was not a Louisa Jane Morris at all!
Plain Louisa on census 1881 and 1891 and her birth was actually registered as Fanny Louisa Morris in June qtr1876 mmn shown as Dayns - however, mothers surname is often hard to read and varies as Dayus/Dayas/Dayns in the various records+.
She is not the Louisa Jane Morris married in 1903 - this was to William Henry Buckley and she was born ca.1861 Montgomeryshire.
Annette
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Thank you for clarifying the 1903 marriage certificate for Louisa Jane MORRIS and William Henry Buckley. Lesley
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What about this , just need to find the Morris Saunders marriage
marriage at St Aiden Bradford Lancashire. 14 August 1913
Fanny Louisa Saunders widow 36 father Thomas Morris gardener.
George Edwards 37 bachelor father Abraham Edwards Labourer.
both residing at 8 Ashworth Street.
witnesses Peter and Mary Houlton.
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Re: Fanny Louisa SAUNDERS, widow, 36 - this is interesting - the occupation - gardener - fits with other information too.
Yes, the MORRIS/SAUNDERS marriage would be v. helpful.
Many thanks, Lesley
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Still in the same street
George Edwards 64
Louisa Edwards 64 b 27 august 1875
Gladys Saunders 39
1901 Ardwick Manchester
Thomas Saunders 23 b Bath
Louisa Saunders 23 b Bewdley Staffs
Eleanor Saunders 3 Manchester
Gladys Saunders 1 Manchester
Bewdley isn`t too far from Bridgenorth, about 15 miles.
1911 neither Thomas or Louisa are found together but the daughters are both in Styal cottage home
Helen Saunders 13 inmate b Manchester
Gladys Saunders 11 same details
GRO index births
Gladys Saunders mmn Morris 1899 Dec qtr Chorlton
Nellie Eleanor 1898 mmn Morris Chorlton
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Re: Thomas SAUNDERS and Louisa nee MORRIS, b. 1876 Bewdley Staffs.
Thanks for the 1901 household information. So it looks like Louisa had put the children (Helen and Gladys) in an orphanage by 1911. I will try and draw some conclusions!
Thanks again,
Lesley
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http://www.formerchildrenshomes.org.uk/styal.html
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Re: Orphanage
Got it!
Thanks,
Lesley
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Thomas Saunders had probably died, but there are a lot to choose from .
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Re: Thomas SAUNDER's death
Yes, that's what I just emailed my brother.
If Thomas SAUNDERS appears on the 1911 census (I haven't seen the census record to verify) then it would be some time after 1911 and before 1913 Louisa SAUNDERS'S (nee MORRIS) remarriage to George EDWARDS - who looks like a neighbor's son - haven't quite figured it out.
Also want to see where who Louisa was living with at that time (1911). Might help with getting some name recognition from my mom.
Thanks again.
Lesley
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just for verification of that marriage
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1913
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Year Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
EDWARDS George MORRIS Fanny Louisa 1913 Bradford, St. Aidan
EDWARDS George SAUNDERS Fanny Louisa 1913 Bradford, St. Aidan
MORRIS Fanny Louisa EDWARDS George 1913 Bradford, St. Aidan
SAUNDERS Fanny Louisa EDWARDS George 1913 Bradford, St. Aidan
Name: Fanny Louisa Saunders [Fanny Louisa Morris]
Gender: Female
Age: 36
Birth Date: 1877
Marriage Date: 04 Aug 1913
Marriage Place: Bradford, Lancashire, England
Father: Thoams Morris
Spouse: George Edwards
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Re: Marriage verification - Louisa SAUNDERS (MORRIS) and George EDWARDS 1913
Very helpful!
Thank you.
Lesley
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/138913811/fanny-louisa-edwards
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/138985930/george-edwards
This looks like the couple, both in same plot 107.
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Re: Plot 107 - thank you!
A question for everyone who replied to this thread (which has been extremely helpful).
My brother wants to know which site/s are being used to get the marriage information (as it is so useful).
Sorry if this is an obvious question but I just want to clarify this matter for him. He is trying to access the appropriate BMD records himself.
Thanks,
Lesley
,
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My reply 7 is on Ancestry with original image of the certificate.
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Re: Ancestry - thanks, Lesley
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Also want to see where who Louisa was living with at that time (1911). Might help with getting some name recognition from my mom.
In 1911 George and Louisa EDWARDS were again in Ashworth Street with their son Charles and Louisa's son Thomas (both births registered Chorlton).
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWBN-BBW
My reply 7 is on Ancestry with original image of the certificate.
Also on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6BY9-82K
Debra :)
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Re: familysearch - thanks, Lesley
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Also Eva SAUNDERS born and died 1907, both registrations in Chorlton.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/menu.asp
Debra :)
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Thanks for the gro.gov info. - and the Eva SAUNDERS entry 1907. Lesley ;)
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Also Eva SAUNDERS born and died 1907, both registrations in Chorlton.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/menu.asp
Debra :)
Mmn Morris. Nice find.
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My reply #15
The first part was from lancashirebmd.org.uk
The second was from ancestry.co.uk
The marriage was not transcribed on lan-opc - another useful site for Lancashire research
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Got it - lancashirebmd and ancestry - thanks, Lesley
All,
As an aside, I looked at Styal Cottage Homes (orphanage) Chorlton and it didn't look too great as I expected. The two girls (from this thread there in 1911 - Eleanor age 13, Gladys 11) were more than likely my grandma's cousins (still to be conclusively confirmed).
My grandma - 8 siblings - did stay home w/parents - but money and work were v. short leading up to WW!.
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My goodness, this is getting complicated.
1911 8 Ashworth Street Ardwick. Same address as marriage in 1913
George Edwards 34 b Shrewsbury ?
Louisa Edwards 34 b Bridgenorth Salop
Charles Edwards 11 b Ardwick
Thomas Saunders 8 b Arwick
GRO index has a Thomas Saunders birth 1904 Mar qtr Chorlton mmn Morris.
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Re: George and Louisa EDWARDS 1911
Looks like Louisa EDWARDS (prev. Thomas SAUNDERS widow, nee MORRIS mmn DAYUS) kept the SAUNDERS son (first marriage) with her but put the two SAUNDERS girls in the home for a while - Styal Cottages (which looked awful).
Charles EDWARDS - from his side, not sure how son/nephew.
Thanks for this, very helpful.
Lesley
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https://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory_record/212462/styal_cottage_homes/category/1370/industrial_schoo
Perhaps the girls are listed in the records, and possibly the reason why they were there.
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Re: Styal
- says restricted access but will see what can be done. There is some other general info. that I will look at (such a shame). Many thanks for this, Lesley
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I would still contact them, perhaps it's later records that may be of people still alive.. it's worth a go.
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Re: Styal Cottages
Maybe the two girls were employees (age 13 and 11) - still grim. The 1921 census will eventually also provide further information about their lives.
Anyway, will try to confirm matters first.
Thanks again,
Lesley
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Both girls were classed as inmates and their occupations "school".
There were over 80 children between 3 and 16 , almost all were girls.
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Ancestry .
I`ve only just spotted this, living next household to George and Louisa .
3 Ashworth Street Manchester
Thomas Saunders Birth Date: 1 Dec 1903 Occupation: Hod Carrier (Heavy)
Thomas Saunders Birth Date: 16 Jan 1939
Florence Saunders Birth Date: 2 Dec 1900
Thomas Saunders married Florence Ryder in July qtr 1938. South Manchester.
The birth registration of Thomas in 1939 confirms mmn as Ryder.
Florence and her son have been found, but there`s no matching date of Thomas. b 1903
Thomas Saunders Death Age: 63 Birth Date: 16 Jan 1939
Death Registration Date: Jul 2002 Fleetwood and Fylde, Lancashire
Florence Saunders Birth 2 Dec 1900
Death Jul 1980 Manchester, Greater Manchester, England
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Re: Styal Cottages
You're right - it was just a thought about the two girls working there (better not I think). Thanks for the school information. Lesley
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My goodness, this is getting complicated.
1911 8 Ashworth Street Ardwick. Same address as marriage in 1913
George Edwards 34 b Shrewsbury ?
Louisa Edwards 34 b Bridgenorth Salop
Charles Edwards 11 b Ardwick
Thomas Saunders 8 b Arwick
GRO index has a Thomas Saunders birth 1904 Mar qtr Chorlton mmn Morris.
Charles has been mistranscribed - the image was changed from ? and school to age 1 and occupation of school crossed out He is in the GRO index born 1910 with mmn of Morris so Louisa's & George's son. They pretended they had been married 3 years
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Yes, I spotted that after, I wonder what happened to Thomas Saunders, they waited till 1913 to marry.
Could he have died and made the way clear.
As yet there's no marriage that fits.
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Re: Thomas SAUNDERS m. (Fanny) Louisa MORRIS mmn DAYUS (1913 2nd m. George EDWARDS) b. 1876 Bridnorth (Wolverhampton), servant in Chorlton 1891
Thomas SAUNDERS appears on the 1901 census (thread). A child's birth/death in 1907 suggests to me that Thomas died sometime between 1907 and 1911. :( Maybe two girls put in in Styal around then too.
Just saw your other post about Thomas and Florence - will look at it - thanks so much - Lesley.
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Re: Charles EDWARDS b. 1910 - got it - age 1 (not 11, 1911) therefore George EDWARDS and Louisa's son pre-marriage in 1913
Yes, thanks for age discrepancy clarification. Couldn't quite figure out where Charles came from (parents).
Louisa EDWARDS b. 1876 (SAUNDERS widow, nee MORRIS mmn DAYUS) would still have been living w/ 1st husband Thomas SAUNDERS w/their son - the Thomas SAUNDERS age 8 (1911).
George EDWARDS was a bachelor when he got married in 1913 to Louisa. So I now see that little Charles EDWARDS got his father's name even though the couple weren't married yet (maybe not so bad - still the little guy's name).
Traditionally we get our father's name at birth. At that time, if the parents weren't married, the father's name didn't seem to appear on the birth certificate at all (making family research even harder). Lot of stigma with illegitimacy.
So we've got two children in the orphanage (Styal) and more children being born.
I've seen a lot of marriages, at that time, that took place after the couple had been together for a while - maybe hard to find a moment for the ceremony with the long hours working.
Catching up on these brilliant posts! :)
Thanks!
Lesley
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You are right that no father’s name make family history more difficult, especially when the child concerned is then adopted. However he can be named if he is present at the registration and agrees.
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Re: Father's name on the birth certificate
Oh, I didn't know that the unmarried dad had to agree to it (his (father's name) on the birth certificate). I guess the mom's didn't realize how important it was (and she could have encouraged dad to list his name).
Back then the father was maybe not around so much at the birth itself (midwives).
Although the dad's often seem to register the birth of their children and maybe that explains why my great-granddad's name appears on one of his daughter's birth certificates 1897 before his marriage 1898.
(Wasn't sure if it was a government rule (or something) - not to put the father's name for illegitimate children - again stigma related.
Anyway, nowadays it is very much encouraged for the dad to get his name listed.
Thanks!
Lesley
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Re: Thomas SAUNDERS 1903-1966 Ardwick, Manchester Hod Carrier (Heavy)
- - son of: Thomas SAUNDERS m. (Fanny) Louisa SAUNDERS b. 1876 (MORRIS, mmn DAYUS, George EDWARDS 2nd husband 1913, 8 Ashworth Street, Manchester 1911) - -
Thank you for bringing Louisa's son up-to-date. May help with identification (via my mum who is the same generation as this Thomas SAUNDERS b. 1939.
Thomas SAUNDERS (1903-1966) = Florence, nee Ryder (1900-1980)
Son: Thomas SAUNDERS 1939-2002
@ 3 Ashworth Street, Manchester.
I hope Thomas SAUNDERS'S, b. 1903 sisters: Helen SAUNDERS b. 1898, Chorlton, Manchester and Gladys SAUNDERS, Chorlton, b.1900 made it up to the late 20th century also (and Charles EDWARDS b. 1910 Ardwick Manchester).
Mom (of Thomas, Helen, Glaydys and of Charles EDWARDS) Louisa EDWARDS, prev. SAUNDERS, nee MORRIS b. 1876 may be the sister of my ggran Alice (E.) ELLIS b. 1874 (1901) Wolverhampton - working on 1891 census confirmation.
Thanks again! ;)
Lesley
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/140810241/thomas-saunders
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/138916516/florence-saunders
Both in the same plot. 208.
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Re: Plot 208 >:(
Thanks for this.
Lesley
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Looking for the Chorlton, Manchester marriage certificate of:
Thomas SAUNDERS and (Fanny) Louisa MORRIS
The couple appear on the 1901 census with two daughters Eleanor b. 1898 and Gladys b. 1900, Ardwick Manchester.
Thank you for any assistance.
Lesley
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Re: Father's name on the birth certificate
Oh, I didn't know that the unmarried dad had to agree to it (his (father's name) on the birth certificate). I guess the mom's didn't realize how important it was (and she could have encouraged dad to list his name).
Back then the father was maybe not around so much at the birth itself (midwives).
Although the dad's often seem to register the birth of their children and maybe that explains why my great-granddad's name appears on one of his daughter's birth certificates 1897 before his marriage 1898.
(Wasn't sure if it was a government rule (or something) - not to put the father's name for illegitimate children - again stigma related.
Law on including name of father of an illegitimate child on a birth certificate in England changed in 1874. (Registration of Births and Deaths Amendment Act 1874; Clause 7) Until then an unmarried mother could name any man as the father, even without his knowledge or permission. Some women put the name of the real father. Other women named a male relative or made up a name to hide the fact a child was illegitimate. A few women gave the name of a famous man as the father. After the law change, an unmarried father had to be present at the birth registration. Reason for the change was to improve accuracy of information on a birth certificate.
A father of an illegitimate child was liable to be pursued for maintenance. The responsibility was removed by the Poor Law Act 1834 but reinstated in the Poor Law Amendment Act 1844 and the Bastardy Act 1845. Other relevant changes were Poor Law Amendment Act 1868 and Bastardy Laws Amendment Act 1873.
Also changes to divorce laws and custody and care of children in second half of 19th century.
"History of child support in the U.K."
www.childsupportanalysis.co.uk/information_and_explanation/world/history_uk.htm
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Ive looked at Ancestry , Scotland's People and Irish indexes and found nothing, even searching for first names only.
Perhaps Thomas had another name
Unless Fanny Louisa was married before, a widow and had another surname, but that's unlikely.
Why did she wait to marry George, had Thomas deserted her, or did she wait until she knew he had died.
Why were the elder children in the home.
The birth certificate of Thomas would give some details as to where she was and an occupation of the father.
I found a possible Thomas Saunders born in Bath and will try to follow him up.
Perhaps you could start a fresh post with a marriage help title with a link to this one .
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Re: Birth Certificates - unmarried father's name
Got it! Unmarried father's had to register the birth after 1874. That is helpful. Thank you, Lesley ;)
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Re: Thomas SAUNDERS, b. 1874 c. Bath
Maybe Thomas SAUNDERS and (Fanny) Louisa MORRIS b. 1876 Bridnorth, in Chorlton by 1891, children by 1898 did not get married. It's a distinct possibility.
Although, she did have SAUNDERS, widow, associated with her second marriage in 1913 to George EDWARDS (see earlier and below in the thread).
By 1874 the child's father had to be listed on the birth certificate (even if illegitimate), hence the children's names (as I just learned from this thread).
Yes, new thread to pursue that one is appropriate.
Thanks again,
Lesley
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What about this , just need to find the Morris Saunders marriage
marriage at St Aiden Bradford Lancashire. 14 August 1913
Fanny Louisa Saunders widow 36 father Thomas Morris gardener.
George Edwards 37 bachelor father Abraham Edwards Labourer.
both residing at 8 Ashworth Street.
witnesses Peter and Mary Houlton.
Second marriage would suggest a first marriage (certificate) between Thomas SAUNDERS and (Fanny) Louisa MORRIS. Yes, the names can be misspelt and there can be inconsistency with first and second names and which ones they use.
Thomas SAUNDERS/Fanny Louisa MORRIS marriage registration should be between 1895 and 1910 at the latest in the the Chorlton, Manchester vicinity.
Thomas named his son Thomas so I think he would be consistent with his first name.
Thanks,
Lesley
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There was one good match for a birth that year, but he died soon after.
1901 Ardwick Manchester
Thomas Saunders 23 b Bath b c 1878
Louisa Saunders 23 b Bewdley Staffs
Eleanor Saunders 3 Manchester
Gladys Saunders 1
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Re: Thomas SAUNDERS b. 1873 c. Bath
Yes, I see Thomas was born in Bath on the 1901 (rechecked). I hadn't started to focus on him yet. ;) Eventually, I will need to find both Thomas's birth and death registration (1907 and 1911) if possible.
I'm helping my brother with this, so maybe he'll make some progress himself. I did a lot of research earlier on and we're now trying to finally pull the pieces together.
I did start a new thread for the marriage certificate Thomas MORRIS/(Fanny) Louisa MORRIS for around the turn-of-the-last-century.
Second marriage suggests there was a first marriage, but we'll see.
Thanks,
Lesley ???
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Ancestry.
Marriage 14 May 1921 St Aidan, Bradford Manchester Lancashire,
Eleanor Saunders 23 sp residence 5 Ashworth Street father Thomas Saunders carter.
John Robert Ogden 22 bac labourer 40 Kay Street , father John Robert Ogden labourer
Witnesses Thomas Saunders ( brother?) Emily Ogden.
42 William Street, Manchester. 18 years later.
John R Ogden Sr 41 property demolisher b 19 October 1898
Eleanor (Nellie Eleanor) Ogden 41 born 20 Feb 1898
John R Ogden Jr 17
Gladys Ogden 15
Nellie Eleanor Ogden Death Age: 85 Birth Date: 20 Feb 1898
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep 1983 Registration District: Manchester
So, Nellie Eleanor knew about her father, his occupation is pretty much the same as 1901. It doesn`t say he is deceased, but quite often it`s not specified. Her residence was at the same street that her mother lived.
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Re: Nellie Eleanor OGDEN (nee SAUNDERS) b. 1898 Manchester
Thank for bring Nellie Eleanor up-to-date (felt sorry for her in Styal) - married in St. Aiden, Bradford.
Yes, seems like the father, Thomas SAUNDERS b. Bath was around for Nellie Eleanor.
Then Thomas SAUNDERS b. 1876 c. Bath, died around 1908-1910, before the mother's Fanny Louisa EDWARDS (SAUNDERS nee MORRIS, mmn DAYUS) remarriage 1913 w/George EDWARDS.
Yes, would most likely be brother Thomas SAUNDERS, b. 1904 lived until her was 66.
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Re: Nellie Eleanor OGDEN (nee SAUNDERS) b. 1898 Manchester
Thank for bring Nellie Eleanor up-to-date (felt sorry for her in Styal) - married in St. Aiden, Bradford.
Yes, seems like the father, Thomas SAUNDERS b. Bath was around for Nellie Eleanor.
Then Thomas SAUNDERS b. 1876 c. Bath, died around 1908-1910, before the mother's Fanny Louisa EDWARDS (SAUNDERS nee MORRIS, mmn DAYUS) remarriage 1913 w/George EDWARDS.
Father Thomas was not necessarily around at Eleanor's marriage as often the registrar did not record that the father was deceased
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Re: Father @ marriage - got it. No, I meant it didn't seem like he (Thomas SAUNDERS b. Bath) just deserted the family back around 1910 - I think Thomas would have died, in this case, some time around 1908-1910.
The marriage certificate is looking less likely for Thomas SAUNDERS/Fanny Louisa nee MORRIS. Maybe he died before they got around to it. Not unusual not to marry for a while after settling down. ;)
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Gorton Cemetery, Section X Consecrated, Grave 379
John Robert Ogden, burial 27 Jun 1952
John Robert Ogden, burial 14 Apr 1967
Nellie Eleanor Ogden, burial 16 Oct 1983
https://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/GenLocDetails.aspx?ID=171796 (https://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/GenLocDetails.aspx?ID=171796)
Corresponding death registrations:
Deaths Jun 1952
OGDEN John R - aged 53 - Manchester 10e 304
Deaths Jun 1967
OGDEN John R - aged 45 - Manchester 10e 285
Deaths Sep 1983
OGDEN Nellie Eleanor - D.O.B. 20 Feb 1898 - Manchester 38 1409
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ (https://www.freebmd.org.uk/)
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OGDEN John Robert of 42 Hoyland Street West Gorton
Manchester 12 died 11 April 1967 Administration
Manchester 28 June to Nellie Eleanor Ogden widow.
£1600
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=ogden&yearOfDeath=1967&page=3#calendar (https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=ogden&yearOfDeath=1967&page=3#calendar)
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Re: Nellie Eleanor
Thank you for the burial information. It is helpful.
Lesley
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It seems Fanny Louisa didn`t remember her birth details, both the month and year are wrong
Reply 1
MORRIS, FANNY LOUISA Mother's maiden surname: DAYNS
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in BRIDGNORTH
Reply 9
1939 Louisa Edwards 64 b 27 August 1875
Reply 17
Deaths Sep 1960 EDWARDS Fanny L 84 Manchester bc 1876
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Re: Fanny Louisa - birthday inaccuracy
Thanks for the additional information - not sure if it is the person or the record keeper with the inaccuracies creeping in - clearly very poor and barely educated.
I knew my one set of grandparents from that era, who both died when they were 90, told me about those times.
Fanny Louisa seems to have lived a long life-span (1960) - wow!. Her sister, possibly, my g-gran Alice E. ELLIS nee MORRIS, died in 1931, age 58.
Alice E. was also, like Fanny Louisa, a servant in the Chorlton/Didsbury area in 1891 (far, for the times, from their Bridnorth birthplace.
Trying to confirm these two as sisters to confirm my g-gran Alice E. MORRIS in Didsbury on the 1891.
Lesley
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St Mary Magdalene Bridgenorth
Alice Edith Dayns Christening Date 29 Mar 1874
Mother's Name Louisa Daynd
Family search.
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1891
(Fanny) Louisa MORRIS b. 1876, 15 Bridnorth and Alice E. MORRIS b. 1874, 17, Bridnorth appear to be sisters on the 1891. Both are servants in Chorlton/Didsbury, Manchester - mmn DAYUS.
1901
The issue I have is that when I get to the 1901 census Alice ELLIS b. 1874 Wolverhampton (who I know is my Alice Edith ELLIS (nee MORRIS) because I recognize the family) has a birth place as Wolverhampton which does not correspond to the 1891 census.
Originally, I want to see what (Fanny) Louisa had as her birth place on the 1901 and it is something else again (have to double check it - about 15 miles from Bridnorth).
So I just can't get any consistency confirming the 1891 Alice E. MORRIS in Didsbury, mmn DAYUS and the 1901 Alice (E.) ELLIS (nee MORRIS) in Stockport are the same person.
Thanks again,
Lesley
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Is Alice still alive in 1939, what was her husbands name.
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Re: Alice E. ELLIS nee MORRIS b. 1874 Wolverhampton 1901 census
Alice E. ELLIS nee MORRIS, b. 1874 died in 1931, age 58. Her husband George W. ELLIS b. 1872 Leeds, died in around 1938. ;)
Thanks,
Lesley
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They had a civil marriage in Salford in 1898, have you got the certificate for fathers name and witnesses
All children have mmn Morris, but the fact that this one was born in Wolverhampton in 1901 and 1911 is a bit of a problem.
Is this your ancestor.
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Yes, my ancestor Alice (Edith) ELLIS (MORRIS) b. 1874 Wolverhampton 1901 - I do have the physicial marriage certificate 1898 - George W. ELLIS is correct - Block Cutter - his father's name and occupation correct - I can see the ELLIS family all through the 19th century.
Witnesses: Catherine ROBERTS and a J. N. SEACK/SLACK not very readable. Neither name has ever rung a bell.
My relative was known as Alice Edith ELLIS throughout the family and this confirms with her death certificate (which I have also).
1891 Fanny Louisa EDWARDS nee MORRIS, Thomas SAUNDERS widow, mmn DAYUS, servant (Alice E. MORRIS 1891, servant, sisters most likely) listed her father as Thomas MORRIS, gardener on the later (re)marriage George EDWARDS/SAUNDERS 1913
1898 marriage certificate my relative Alice Edith ELLIS puts her name as Edith ELLIS and father as Fredrick MORRIS, gardener (domestic), deceased.
Two discrepancies on my relative's (Alice) Edith ELLIS nee MORRIS 1898 Salford marriage certificate to consider compared with the 1891 Alice E. MORRIS mmn DAYUS, servant.
1.This Alice's father (Alice E. MORRIS mmn DAYUS on the 1891, servant) clearly has Thomas MORRIS - not Frederick (throughout all the records I'm getting at).
2. Alice Edith ELLIS nee MORRIS (my relative) used only "Edith" on her 1898 marriage certificate - I consider that minor - the bigger issue is the Frederick.
1891 Alice E. MORRIS, EDWARDS, SAUNDERS mmn DAYUS along with (sister) 1891 Alice E. DAYUS 1881 (later MORRIS 1891) were two of 8 - one of the siblings was Frederick MORRIS - siblings did not seem to be in the Manchester area (down near Bridgnorth - parents moved around). Have not researched extensively those 6 siblings.
The DNA which my brother had my mom just do shows a 99.9% or so match with the 1891 Alice E. MORRIS, EDWARDS, SAUNDERS, mmn DAYUS (via one of those 6 siblings - Beatrice MORRIS)
Just threw out the names/places, coming up on this thread, to my mom, to see if anything rings a bell also.
Again, all this is to confirm the Alice E. MORRIS mmn DAYUS 1891 is the same person as the Alice ELLIS on the 1901 (who I know is mine 1901).
Thanks again.
Lesley
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It is a tricky one.
I can see in 1901 that Thomas Morris is an ordinary agricultural labourer.
in 1911 he is a farm labourer.
To say he was a gardener was gilding the lily a bit.
There doesn`t seem to be a Frederick Morris a gardener anywhere that fits.
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Re: Frederick MORRIS, gardener, 1898 marriage certificate
Thank you for your reply. I have never been able to find a Frederick MORRIS, gardener.
I think my relative Alice Edith ELLIS (MORRIS) 1901 on her 1898 marriage certificate made a mistake with the name Frederick.
If my relative Alice ELLIS 1901 is the same person as the 1891 Alice E. MORRIS, mmn DAYUS then she should have put Thomas MORRIS - Frederick MORRIS is a brother - so my relative Alice shoud not have put Frederick.
I come to this conclusion because Alice E. MORRIS, mmn DAYUS 1891 - seems to have sister (Fanny) Louisa MORRIS mmn DAYUS 1891. Fanny Louisa put Thomas MORRIS, gardener on her (re)marriage EDWARDS 1913.
That's as close as I can get to any confirmation that my relative Alice (E.) ELLIS (MORRIS), Stockport 1901 is the Alice E. MORRIS 1898, Didsbury servant. :)
Same general location for the 1901 Alice (E.) and 1891 Alice E., same name (with initial for the 1891 Alice but other verification of that initial for the 1901 Alice) and a high DNA match - but father's names Frederick and Thomas are a mismatch.
Yes, the gardener does seem a stretch, but at least there is some consistency - these people were extremely poor and moved around quite a bit. Maybe the dad (whatever his first name) worked on an allotment too.
Not sure if that is enough. Checking with my mom for names (again) also. :)
Thanks again.
Lesley
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It is a tricky one.
I can see in 1901 that Thomas Morris is an ordinary agricultural labourer.
in 1911 he is a farm labourer.
To say he was a gardener was gilding the lily a bit.
There doesn`t seem to be a Frederick Morris a gardener anywhere that fits.
Gardening may have been a job they did when they couldn't be a farm labourer for some reason. Some farming jobs were seasonal. There may have been less demand for labourers at times. Farming became increasingly mechanised from 19th century so there were fewer jobs for ag. labs. Farmers died or retired, farms were sold or tenancies given up, workers let go. Land near expanding towns and cities might be sold for building on.
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Reply 67.
1898 marriage certificate my relative Alice Edith ELLIS puts her name as Edith ELLIS and father as Fredrick MORRIS, gardener (domestic), deceased.
On following Thomas and Louisa, he is still alive in 1911 ???
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Re: 1911 alive Thomas MORRIS
- - - , father of Fanny Louisa MORRIS mmn DAYUS, servant, Chorlton 1891 - and quite possibly Alice E. MORRIS 1891, servant in Didsbury (sisters) - who is possibly my relative Alice ELLIS 1901 Stockport - - -
That is certainly another inconsistency with my relative's - Alice ELLIS (MORRIS) on census 1901 - 1898 Salford marriage certificate - has deceased for father (Frederick MORRIS, gardener, domestic).
The brother, Frederick, may well have been dead (have to recheck) - don't know what my relative Alice was thinking when she came to her 1891 marriage info. - if this dad (Thomas) is from the right family for my relative. Can't get to the bottom of it satisfactorily. Sorry. :'(
So to conclude 3 discrepancies with my Alice relative's 1893 marriage certificate and the Alice E. MORRIS mmn DAYUS 1891 (to be able to make the connection that they are the same person):
1. Her name Edith MORRIS - (instead of Alice Edith MORRIS which I consider a minor error)
2. Father's name - Frederick MORRIS (instead of Thomas)
3. Thomas MORRIS is alive up 1911 and not deceased (in 1898, if in fact he is my relative Alice ELLIS'S father). ??? ??? ???
Thanks for your update. :)
Lesley
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Another inconsistency with that marriage
If Edith (Alice) was described as a minor in 1898 she would have been born after 1877 not in 1874 as you think your Alice was
I think George William was a fairly common name.
The one in the 1911 ( without checking through for the post) with daughter Eva was born in Shropshire (Salop) not Staffordshire - edit my incorrect info - image says Wolverhampton - apologies
edit -
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Re: Marriage Certificate 1898, Salford
I'm trying to find out if my relative Alice (E.) ELLIS, b.1874, Wolverhampton 1901 is the the Alice E. MORRIS, b. 1874, Bridnorth, servant in Didsbury 1891. ;)
1.My relative 1901 Alice was of full age on her marriage certificate 1898. ;) - sorry for any confusion. :-[
2.My relative 1901 Alice's husband George William ELLIS, b. 1872, Leeds, Block Cutter is confirmed with his family all through the 19th century - father, location and occupation correspond correctly on the 1898 marriage certificate (I have a copy). ;)
3.My relative 1901 Alice was born in 1874, which the death certificate confirms (I have a copy). :)
4.In 1911 my relative Alice is with her family - husband and 7 of their 8 living children. They lived in Stockport, which is not far from Didsbury.
5. I've research both my relative 1901 Alice E. MORRIS and the 1891 Alice E. MORRIS as far as I'm able to, and the main inconsistency is that the father of the 1901 Alice appears to be Frederick MORRIS and the father of the 1891 Alice appears to be Thomas MORRIS.
Thank you for your help.
Lesley
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sorry - I have edited my post about Alice born Shropshire. I must have been looking at the wrong record. I was confused though when you posted 'Edith - minor'
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Alice Edith Dayus
Christening Date29 Mar 1874
Christening Place Bridgnorth, Shropshire, England,
Christening Place (Original)Saint Mary Magdalene, Bridgnorth, Shropshire, England
Mother's Name Louisa Dayus
Family Search
Thomas Morris Marital Status Widowed
Spouse's Name Louisa Dayus Spouse's Marital Status Single
Marriage
Date23 May 1875
Marriage Place
Bucknell, Shropshire, England, United Kingdom
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A bit more from Family search
Thomas Morris
Christening 25 Apr 1852
Christening Place Worfield, Shropshire, England,
Birth Date 9 Mar 1852 father's Name John Morris
Mother's Name Elizabeth
Thomas Morris
Father's NameJohn Morris
.Spouse Eliza Wilks
Father's Name William Wilks
Marriage 9 Dec 1872 Bridgnorth, Shropshire,
Eliza Morris Age19
Burial 21 Feb 1873
Burial Place Bridgnorth, Shropshire,
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Thank you for the MORRIS family updates. I will review all the responses.
In order to focus the many marvelous responses, here is a short recap: I am trying to connect my relative Alice (E.) ELLIS (MORRIS) b. 1974, Wolverhampton 1901 in living in Stockport with whom she is (her entry) on the 1891 census (and hence her family history). :)
I have researched my relative Alice (E.) ELLIS 1901 extensively (I have lots of info.).
I have also researched an Alice E. MORRIS b. 1874, Bridnorth, servant Didsbury, on the 1891 as being possibly my relative on the 1891 (Alice E. ELLIS 1901). Again, I have lots of info.
However, I have not been able to make a definitive connection between the two census entries - Alice (E.) ELLIS (MORRIS) on the 1901 and Alice E. MORRIS mmn DAYUS on the 1891 (to be able to confirm the two census entries as referring to the same person). The DNA match is supposedly 99.9%. ???
Thanks again everyone May 15, 2021.
Lesley ;)
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Looking for the street that Alice E. Morris, mmn Dayus, age 17, born Bridgnorth, Shropshire was living in on the 1891 census as a servant in Didsbury, Manchester.
Thank you.
Lesley
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67 Clyde Road, Didsbury
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Thank you. Lesley
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By 1874 the child's father had to be listed on the birth certificate (even if illegitimate), hence the children's names (as I just learned from this thread).
Clarification. After 1874 the father of an illegitimate child could be named on the birth certificate if he was present at the registration and gave permission for his name to be recorded. Otherwise the box for father's name was left blank on a birth certificate of an illegitimate child.
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I looked at Styal Cottage Homes (orphanage) Chorlton and it didn't look too great as I expected. The two girls (from this thread there in 1911 - Eleanor age 13, Gladys 11) were more than likely my grandma's cousins (still to be conclusively confirmed).
Looks like Louisa EDWARDS (prev. Thomas SAUNDERS widow, nee MORRIS mmn DAYUS) kept the SAUNDERS son (first marriage) with her but put the two SAUNDERS girls in the home for a while - Styal Cottages (which looked awful).
Styal Cottage Homes - Industrial School, founded 1898.
Admission registers 1903-56 & log books 1904-56 at Manchester Libraries Archives & Local History Department.
Cottage Homes for children were intended as a better alternative to workhouses. Plans of cottage homes were based on model villages.
www.childrenshomes.org.uk/cottagehomes/
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Yes, Alice E. (Edith) ELLIS (Morris/mmn Dayus) b. 1874 Bridnorth, Shropshire was listed as Alice E. Dayus, age 7, b. Bridgnorth on the 1881 census and then as Alice E. Morris, age 17, b. Bridgnorth, on the 1891.
By the 1901 census when Alice E. Ellis (now married) was listing her birthplace as Wolverhampton (not Bridgnorth), her parents were still alive and, by then, living very close to Wolverhampton, after having moved around in the Bridgnorth, Shropshire area.
Presumably that was the reason for the birth location change (if Alice E. wasn't very sophisticated and she confused herself with where her parents were currently living with where she had been born).
The change of birth location (from Bridgnorth to Wolverhampton) from 1901 onwards made identifying Alice E. rather difficult on the previous censuses.
I definitely knew who Alice E. was on the 1901 census because, by then, she was married and some of my great-aunts had already been born.
There were also Alice E.'s three surnames to contend with on the various censuses/other documents (brought about by Alice E.'s illegitimacy): Dayus (mmn), Morris (maiden name on 1898 marriage certificate, Salford), and Ellis (married name - George W. Ellis, b. 1872, Leeds).
My family finally!! ;) ;) ;) confirmed Alice E.'s identity through a DNA match between my mum (a granddaughter), and another of Alice E.'s sibling's descendants. There were eight siblings who were all recorded accurately throughout the censuses.
Alice E.'s parents were Thomas Morris b.1852 Worfield/Louisa nee Dayus b. 1849 Chelmarsh, m. 1875, Bridgnorth, Shrewsbury area.
Their (Thomas and Louisa) two children (of the eight) born before 1875 (including Alice E.) are listed with the mother's maiden name in 1881.
Louisa Dayus's (b.1849) mother was Jane Dayus, washerwoman.
Thomas Morris's (b.1852) parents were John Morris = Elizabeth.
Alice E.'s younger sister (Fanny) Louisa Morris, age 15, b. 1876 Bridgnorth, in 1891, was also a servant living reasonably close by to Didsbury, in Chorlton.
Both sisters, Alice E. and Louisa Morris b.1876, stayed in the Manchester area but my mother/grandmother couldn't name/never mentioned Alice E.'s sister (Louisa).
Alice E. was my great-grandmother and in 1891 she was a former servant in Didsbury, Manchester, 67 Clyde Road.
As no other member of Alice E.'s family were present in the 1891 household it was difficult to connect her (to herself) on all the other censuses. ;)
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Looking for information on Frederick MORRIS b. 1892, Kinver, Staffordshire area.
Frederick, 18, 1911, was a greengrocer at 52 High Street, Kinver.
He married Sarah Winsper.
They had at least one child.
Parents: Thomas and Louisa Morris.
Frederick is my great-grandmother's brother.
Many thanks,
Lesley
For family background information also see:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=848710.msg7160094#msg7160094
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Civil Registration Marriage Index - 1916-2005
Name: Frederick Dayus Morris
Reg Date: Jan 1935
Quarter: Jan, Feb, March
Spouse: Sarah Winsper
Volume: 66
Page: 739
Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
"Looking at the 1939 register, Frederick and Sarah appear to have had a child
(and maybe more children after that) so it is possible there are some living
descendants - requires further research."
Any further information appreciated!
Lesley