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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: AJH - Holmes and Gordon on Tuesday 11 May 21 08:37 BST (UK)
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My great-great grandfather Emanual Joseph Taylor was born 1879 in Tynemouth and died at the Somme 1916. A lot is known about his military record, his wife Mary Ellen Atkinson, their 9 children and the Atkinson branch. A quick search and you find a marriage in 1901, then the family in 1901 and 1911 in Morpeth. Before that though I am struggling.
I thought his name would help, in that it is rather unique (to me anyway). He was known as 'Manny', and his name is spelt Emanuel or Emmanuel in different records. I have a birth in 1879 which matches, but I cannot find him in 1881 and 1891.
Of his parents, I believe his father to be of the same name (who I refer to as Emmanuel Senior), and mum to be Sarah Jane Wales, though looking at my notes, I cannot recall how I came to this conclusion. From there, I have pre 1881 record matches, but again nothing when they're married and with children in 1881 and 1891.
Pre 1881 I believe Emmanuel seniors parents to be James Clark (Scotland) and Margeret Appleby (Tynemouth). Emmanuel Snr is present in 1861 with family, 1871 with just widowed Margeret as a shoemaker is North Shields. Again nothing in 1881 for now married Emmanuel Snr or child Emmanuel Jnr, but his mum Margaret is with his now married brother Richard.
This is where I think I'm wandering too far. There is a possible marriage 2 years previous for Emmanuel Snr to an Emily Wagner, though of no relevence yet. I also found an interesting article in 1883 stating an Emmanuel Joseph Taylor (shoemaker from North Shields) was sentenced to 3 months for shop theft, which would be 5 years after he married Sarah. This led me to other crinimal records from around the country but again I'm wandering and making too many assumptions.
So my question, are there any other ways I can find Emmanuel Jnr or Snr in the 1881 and 1891 census records? Is there anything I have missed or sins I have broken! Also, I don't believe there are any gaps in the records for the areas I am searching.
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The 1901 Marriage is on Anc and F/S.Org. His father has the same christian names.
But no other details are available.
1891 I think he is Emmanuel J Taylor age 12, a Nephew of Jane CRAIG.
He is born North Shields, Northumberland.
Also a William B Taylor age 8 is there also.
I havent looked a census yet for EJ Snr so will look later.
Back soon as my internet is slow ::)
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TAYLOR, EMMANUEL JOSEPH mmn WALES****
GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in TYNEMOUTH Volume 10B Page 192
TAYLOR, WILLIAM REDFORD mmn WALES****
GRO Reference: 1882 S Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 706
So appears to be them in 1891 Census.
Jane Craig 57
Robert H Craig 19
Andrew J Craig 16
Albert J Craig 16
John S Bell 25
Mary J Bell 25
William Reynoldson 38
Thomas Wilcox 25
William Rogers 48
Emmanuel J Taylor 12
William B Taylor 8
Jane REDFORD married Alexander CRAIG 1861 Tynemouth.
Not sure how she fits in yet.
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Aaah ha ;D
WALES, SARAH JANE mmn REDFORD*****
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 8
1901 Census
South Shields, Durham
Sarah Jane Taylor 44 Head Widow Charwoman born Newcastle, Northumberland
William M Taylor 17 Son Unm Occp Rivet Heater/Bolier born South Shields, Durham
Jonathan D Wills 48 Boarder
F/S has a Emily Christened 20 Jul 1884 St Hilda, South Shields to Emanuel Joseph and Sarah Jane Taylor but looking at FreeBMD she may have died age 1.
I agree I can see Emanuel 1861/1871 (Father James/Mother Margaret)
But I cant see him or Sarah and Emanuel Jnr in 1881 or Sarah in 1891 when the children are with the Craigs.
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Aaah ha ;D
WALES, SARAH JANE mmn REDFORD*****
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 8
1901 Census
South Shields, Durham
Sarah Jane Taylor 44 Head Widow Charwoman born Newcastle, Northumberland
William M Taylor 17 Son Unm Occp Rivet Heater/Bolier born South Shields, Durham
Jonathan D Wills 48 Boarder
F/S has a Emily Christened 20 Jul 1884 St Hilda, South Shields to Emanuel Joseph and Sarah Jane Taylor but looking at FreeBMD she may have died age 1.
I agree I can see Emanuel 1861/1871 IFather James/Mother Margaret)
But I cant see him or Sarah and Emanuel Jnr in 1881 or Sarah in 1891 when the children are with the Craigs.
Goodness me Trish, that is some digging and detective work. First thing, I was excited to see your first find in 1891 of Emanuel Jnr, though when I searched, I still couldn't find it (I'm using Find my Past). It's only when I searched Jane Craig I found them, it turns out it was transcribed as Emmanuel J SAYLOR! No wonder I couldn't find it.
Anyway, it took me a little while to see where you were going with the CRIAG line and other details and then it clicked, so thank you very much for that. It solves a couple of things and gives a new Redford line to explore.
So, we see Sarah was widowed in 1901, meaning Emmanuel Snr died between 1881-1901, however I cannot find anything. (Curious point, I see Sarah Jane is living next door to a CRAIG in 1901, maybe something there too).
Emmanuel Snr and Sarah Jane Taylor are both still missing in 1881 (as is Emanuel Jnr) and in 1891 with Emanuel Jnr elsewhere with relatives. What could be some of the possibilities here? I doubt they travelled. Maybe Emmanuel died in the 1880s, or perhaps prison, though I should still be able to find Sarah? Any thoughts?
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I love the detective work as it keeps the brain working :)
Its frustrating not being able to find them together 1881 and Sarah in 1891.
I would think Emanuel Snr died between 1884 and 1901 as you say.
It is possible that they just broke up but I cant seem to find any death reg for him except this one.
Deaths Dec 1901
Taylor Emanuel age 57** Gateshead 10a 572
But if him where was he 1891?
I cant see this one 1901 either.
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I may have a possible match for Sarah Jane in 1891 living Westoe, South Shields as a widow living with daughter Jane (age 10) and a John Wickham (though for the life of me I cannot make out his relationship, doesn't appear to be lodger).
This would match with what I have execpt for birth years (1857 censes against my notes of 1855). I have 4 children of Emmanuel Snr and Sarah Jane, with the second being Jane Elizabeth b.1880, also matching.
If this is her, that just leaves 1881 and Emanuels death 1884-1891.
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Going back to a newspaper article I found, Emmanuel Joseph Taylor was jailed in 1883 for shop theft. There are a few articles about it but several details match leading me to believe it could be him. In 1871, he was living with his mum as a shoemakers apprentice in South Shields. The crime occured 12 years later in South Shields, with the prisoner Emmanuel working at the shoe makers shop. The article also mentions his wife Sarah pawning in some of the items.
Not long after in 1884, Emily is born. So between that and 1891 Emmanuel dies but still nothing matching in the records. Or could there be another reason Sarah is listed as widow besides the death of Emmanuel Snr?
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Just putting this in as it may help??
Jane Elizabeth Taylor daughter of Emmanuel & Sarah Jane married John George Walker in South Shields 1902 and records her father as Samuel Joseph, probably an error, wonder if it records him as deceased?
John
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Just putting this in as it may help??
Jane Elizabeth Taylor daughter of Emmanuel & Sarah Jane married John George Walker in South Shields 1902 and records her father as Samuel Joseph, probably an error, wonder if it records him as deceased?
John
Interesting. Would the father being deceased be something I would find out on a certificate?
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Hi, It would appear that Sarah Jane was a widow on the 1901 census, so this suggests that Emmanuel had died. However, I have 3 cases in my family history of someone recording they are a widow but in actual fact their spouses were still alive and kicking. possibly saving face. With regard to marriage certs the fathers name would be recorded along with his occupation if known. Unless the question was asked by the vicar/official conducting the ceremony whether the father was deceased or not then that info would possibly be recorded. You have 3 children who all married, Emmanuel 1901, Jane Elizabeth 1902 and William Redford 1904, one of these may record father as deceased.
Hope I've explained that ok.
John
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Having spent like others the last hour or so I too cannot find them in 1881. One possible long shot could be the birth certs of Jane Elizabeth and William Redford. Should they give the same address we could then try that direction on census. Sorry could not help.,
John
Added William Redford born 10.6.1882 and Jane Elizabeth 24.6.1880
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Having spent like others the last hour or so I too cannot find them in 1881. One possible long shot could be the birth certs of Jane Elizabeth and William Redford. Should they give the same address we could then try that direction on census. Sorry could not help.,
John
Added William Redford born 10.6.1882 and Jane Elizabeth 24.6.1880
I appreciate yours and everyone elses help with this, sometime fresh eyes is all you need. The previous newspaper article mentioning both Emanuel and Sarah, states they were of North Street, South Shields. I have tried using the street address function and looked through all North Streets in Durham and South Shields in 1881, but nothing even close.
The two thefts and 3 month jail time were in 1883, so perhaps Emmanuel Snr was up to no good before and wanted to evade the census check in 1881, is this even possible? How strict were the door to door checks? Perhaps he carried on his criminal behavour after 1883 and Sarah just moved on, stating widow in the census (easier than divorse)? Am I thinking about this too much!?
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My gut tells me this is him;
Deaths Dec 1901
Taylor Emanuel Gateshead 10a 572
Age 57
I cant see him 1901 Census though.
Trish :)
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My gut tells me this is him;
Deaths Dec 1901
Taylor Emanuel Gateshead 10a 572
Age 57
I cant see him 1901 Census though.
Trish :)
Pre 1881 I believe Emmanuel seniors parents to be James Clark (Scotland) and Margeret Appleby (Tynemouth)
This would match with the birth (GRO):
TAYLOR Emmanuel Joseph, Jun qtr 1853 Tynemouth vol 10b p109, mmn APPLEBY
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Thanks for all your help. I am still missing some details, but unless there are any other tricks to try for the missing census records, I think I have exhausted all avenues. Here is what I have about the troubled life of Emmanuel Joseph Taylor.
Emmanuel Joseph Taylor (Senior) was born 1853 Tynemouth, North Shields. He is present in 1861 with mother, father and siblings. In 1871 it is just himself and widowed mother Margaret at Wesleyan Chapel Chirton as an apprentice shoemaker.
In 1876 he marries his first wife Emily Wagner. Tragically, several months later she commits suicide through poisoning October 1876. This was reported in a lot of newspapers from Dundee to Leeds.
In 1878 he marries his second wife Sarah Jane Wales and have their first son Emanuel Jospeh Taylor (Junior) shortly after in 1879.
In 1881 his mum Margaret dies shortly before the 1881 census was taken.
In 1882, his second son William Redford Taylor was born.
In 1883, he is arrested and sentenced to 3 months for stealing boots at the shoe shop where he worked as referenced in several newspaper articles.
What I cannot find is ...
Emmanuel Snr
1881 census onwards
death record
Sarah Jane Taylor
1881 census
1891 census
Emmanuel Jnr
1881 census
Notes
Emmanuel Jnr and William are present in 1891 as nephews in the Craig household. Thanks to Trish (see below) we find that Jane Craig was born Redford. Her sister Mary Ann Redford married Robert Wales and they had a daughter Sarah Jane Wales - Emmanuel 2nd wife. (Where are Emmanuel Snr and Sarah Jane in 1891?)
Sarah Jane Taylor is listed as widowed in 1901 living with son William.
I have done street searches to see if missing persons are present at the same address 10 before or after, but no luck. One curious point to note is that the Craig household in 1891 are living at 43 Northumberland Street, South Shields with the nephews. The article in 1883 about Emmauels arrest references North Street South Shields. Also, 10 years previously the Craig household are living at 23 Hudson Street North Shields in 1881. The article about the suicide of Emily Taylor mentions 15 Hudson Street. So it appears the Craigs and Taylors moved around with each other. Alexander Craig was a mariner and missing on some census's, presumably on voyages, so the thought crossed my mind that perhaps Emmanuel joined him and thats why he is missing on some census's too. Though I couldn't find any records and it would be quite a leap from a shoemaker.
WALES, SARAH JANE mmn REDFORD*****
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 8
1901 Census
South Shields, Durham
Sarah Jane Taylor 44 Head Widow Charwoman born Newcastle, Northumberland
William M Taylor 17 Son Unm Occp Rivet Heater/Bolier born South Shields, Durham
Jonathan D Wills 48 Boarder
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If you can afford it I would buy that 1901 Death Cert.
Trish :)
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If you can afford it I would buy that 1901 Death Cert.
Trish :)
Sarah is listed as widowed June 1901 so it's unlikely, though I'm sure there are various reasons why it could fit. I'm certainly going to invest in a certificate or two, just debating which would give the best information :)