RootsChat.Com

General => The Common Room => Topic started by: mezentia on Thursday 20 May 21 23:02 BST (UK)

Title: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: mezentia on Thursday 20 May 21 23:02 BST (UK)
What do they mean? I've never come across this before. My search was for parish register records for Scatchard in Adel in 1702. The PR is for Adel 1702, and the full image is on Ancestry. FindMyPast has a different image, very unclear, and no abode mentioned. What is the column heading? I get "Woo?" but can't make out the final letter. Ancestry and FindMyPast have different images, which is a nuisance as I'm trying to verify transcriptions on GENUKI. Which one is the PR and which the BT?
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Thursday 20 May 21 23:13 BST (UK)
I think the heading is 'Week' and indicates the weekday of the date in question.  The dot in circle ones will be Sundays - they are all a multiple of 7 apart.  The symbols are reminiscent of signs for the planets.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: scotmum on Friday 21 May 21 00:44 BST (UK)
See https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Week_Day_Symbols

albeit there are other variations too.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 21 May 21 06:13 BST (UK)
Ancestry and FindMyPast have different images, which is a nuisance as I'm trying to verify transcriptions on GENUKI. Which one is the PR and which the BT?

I replicated the search on both sites and came up with a John Scatchard, father Simeon, baptised 1702 in Adel.
Looking at the transcriptions, which give the citation for the record source, shows that the Find My Past one came from the Borthwick Institute's holdings of BTs and the Ancestry one came from West Yorkshire Archives and gives their catalogue ref of RPD2 - the West Yorkshire Archives catalogue  indicates that they are the PRs.

Boo
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Guy Etchells on Friday 21 May 21 07:39 BST (UK)
What do they mean? I've never come across this before. My search was for parish register records for Scatchard in Adel in 1702. The PR is for Adel 1702, and the full image is on Ancestry. FindMyPast has a different image, very unclear, and no abode mentioned. What is the column heading? I get "Woo?" but can't make out the final letter. Ancestry and FindMyPast have different images, which is a nuisance as I'm trying to verify transcriptions on GENUKI. Which one is the PR and which the BT?

The problem is the symbols do not always match the days of the week the dates pertain to.
For example March the 30th was a Thursday not a Sunday, the 6th of April in 1702 was also a Thursday, not a Sunday the symbol refers to.
The 16th was a Sunday but the symbol claims it to be a Friday, however the 30th is a Sunday which coincides with the symbol.
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Guy Etchells on Friday 21 May 21 08:27 BST (UK)
The more I look at these early Parish Registers (they are the registers not the transcripts) I feel the symbol column is indicating the moon phase which seems very odd for a Christian register to show.
The register entries with symbols run from 1688 until 1703 when the vicar or cleric entering the register was changed and the entries stopped though the column remained until 1708.
Perhaps the vicar had an interest in Astrology, I know the Catholic Church condemns it but did the Church of England?
It seems very strange to see such symbols in an Anglican register.

Cheers
Guy
PS Find My Past seem to be using a mixture of Bishops Transcripts and third party transcripts from a folder claiming the originals were being repaired.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Friday 21 May 21 09:15 BST (UK)
The problem is the symbols do not always match the days of the week the dates pertain to.
For example March the 30th was a Thursday not a Sunday, the 6th of April in 1702 was also a Thursday, not a Sunday the symbol refers to.
The 16th was a Sunday but the symbol claims it to be a Friday, however the 30th is a Sunday which coincides with the symbol.

Your hypothesis may well be right, Guy, but your last point about April 16th and 30th is not, as they both show the same symbol (as they should).
Perhaps we should try to interpret the column heading starting W..  The two characters following resemble the 'e' in June.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Guy Etchells on Friday 21 May 21 10:26 BST (UK)
Sorry Andrew my reply was not clear, I think I even confused myself, perhaps if I try again.  ;)

Baptism Register for months in 1702.

March 30 :  Thursday, symbol shown Sonntag (Sunday) incorrect if denoting day ot the week
April 6  :     Thursday, symbol shown Sonntag (Sunday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
April 16 :    Sunday, symbol shown Mittwoch (Friday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
April 30 :    Sunday, symbol shown Mittwoch (Friday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
May 11  :    Thursday, symbol shown Sonntag (Sunday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
May 29  :    Monday, symbol shown Mittwoch (Friday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
June 14  :    Wednesday, symbol shown Donnerstag  (Thursday)  incorrect if denoting day of the week
June 22  :    Thursday, symbol shown Sonntag (Sunday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
July 8     :    Saturday,  symbol shown shown Mittwoch (Friday) incorrect if denoting day of the week.

Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: KGarrad on Friday 21 May 21 10:30 BST (UK)
Mittwoch is Wednesday!
Friday would be Freitag.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: djm297 on Friday 21 May 21 11:04 BST (UK)
Intriguing!
Maybe the planetary symbols represent the time of day?: The Chaldean Sequence allocates a planet for each hour of the day...the symbols on the document are the Sun, Mercury and Saturn. Could the word at the top of the column possibly be "Hour" ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_hours

djm297
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Sandblown on Friday 21 May 21 11:44 BST (UK)
"A new church of limestone was built on the same site, and during the rebuilding, were discovered a Saxon piscina and a Norman sandstone arch, with chevron carvings, enclosing the twelve signs of the Zodiac. Supposedly, the emblems of Taurus, Cancer and Virgo were excavated, that prompted the current Victorian carving that forms the Zodical frieze over the inner south doorway which contains fragments of the Norman masonry."

The above is a Wikipedia extract, which details the History of 'All Hallows Parish Church', Bispham, Lancashire.
This seems to indicate that Christian worship, had an affinity with Astrology, sometime in the past.

Actually still relavent today, as specifically, Easter is celebrated on the first Sunday following the full Moon that occurs on or just after the spring equinox.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Friday 21 May 21 12:31 BST (UK)
Intriguing!
Maybe the planetary symbols represent the time of day?: The Chaldean Sequence allocates a planet for each hour of the day...the symbols on the document are the Sun, Mercury and Saturn. Could the word at the top of the column possibly be "Hour" ?

Given that the symbols are Sun, Mercury and Saturn, corresponding to Sunday, Wednesday (Mercredi in French) and Saturday, they are internally consistent within the sample shown above; but it seems that the original scribe was using a calendar out of step with Guy's calculations - possibly one of astrological significance ?
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Albufera32 on Friday 21 May 21 12:46 BST (UK)
Would these dates be before the change from Julian to Gregorian calendar?
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Sandblown on Friday 21 May 21 13:43 BST (UK)
Would these dates be before the change from Julian to Gregorian calendar?

Before, the Gregorian Calendar was adopted by the UK in September 1752.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Albufera32 on Friday 21 May 21 13:46 BST (UK)
Is that perhaps why the days appear inconsistent with the calculated ones?
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: KGarrad on Friday 21 May 21 13:54 BST (UK)
The Calendar (New Style) Act 1750 did not make any changes to the days of the week.
Wednesday, 2 September 1752, was followed by Thursday, 14 September 1752.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Albufera32 on Friday 21 May 21 13:59 BST (UK)
Yes, but surely that means if you were calculating back from now to a date in 1702, the days of the week would be offset by 3 days?
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: macwil on Friday 21 May 21 14:01 BST (UK)
The Calendar (New Style) Act 1750 did not make any changes to the days of the week.
Wednesday, 2 September 1752, was followed by Thursday, 14 September 1752.
But the 14th would have been a Monday before the change!
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: KGarrad on Friday 21 May 21 14:23 BST (UK)
Yes, but surely that means if you were calculating back from now to a date in 1702, the days of the week would be offset by 3 days?

A decent date calculator should take note of Julian/Gregorian calendars changes.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: macwil on Friday 21 May 21 14:30 BST (UK)
Yes, but surely that means if you were calculating back from now to a date in 1702, the days of the week would be offset by 3 days?

A decent date calculator should take note of Julian/Gregorian calendars changes.
The change was not universal worldwide, England was several years behind many continental countries, so a calculator would also need to include several change dates depending on country, a nightmare to programme.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Sandblown on Friday 21 May 21 14:56 BST (UK)
https://www.gbps.org.uk/tools/calendars.php

The above Link might be of some assistance.

The Julian days for 1702, were 11 days behind those of the Gregorian days.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Friday 21 May 21 15:08 BST (UK)
Yes, but surely that means if you were calculating back from now to a date in 1702, the days of the week would be offset by 3 days?

Can we be sure of the year we are discussing ? The calendar year then began on March 25th - which may explain why the extract we are shown starts on the 30th ?  We may be looking at 1701 or 1703 (new style).  Tho that would only make a day's difference to our calculation of course .... >:(
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Sandblown on Friday 21 May 21 15:32 BST (UK)
Post Deleted.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Sandblown on Friday 21 May 21 16:02 BST (UK)
Andrew Tarr wrote: Can we be sure of the year we are discussing ? The calendar year then began on March 25th - which may explain why the extract we are shown starts on the 30th ?  We may be looking at 1701 or 1703 (new style).  Tho that would only make a day's difference to our calculation of course .... >:(

Refering to the Calendar Link, the Planetary Symbols for the Days of the Week, as depicted in the Record, seem to fall into the Year  of 1701.

Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Friday 21 May 21 18:24 BST (UK)
Well, if nothing else, I think that diagram answers what the symbols on the OP must be about.  We  are looking at Sundays, Wednesdays and Saturdays, as we supposed.  Presumably the original scribe knew what he was doing ?
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: mezentia on Friday 21 May 21 22:48 BST (UK)
First may I say an enormous thank you to everyone who has replied to my original post. I have been trying to keep up on my phone, but it's not the best device for viewing this board. As my PC has been commandeered for a "Covid rule relaxation working from home visitor", I can only seem to get access at unearthly hours to make a meaningful reply :)

Forgive me for seeming not quite on top of all this, but have we actually reached a consensus as to what these planetary symbols actually mean? A day of the week, or an hour of the day? Is it, perhaps, an idea to seek advice from elsewhere, and any ideas where to ask? I will go back through the posts and follow the suggestions made to see if I can make sense of the original scribe was doing, but being a bear of little brain, the prospect is a little daunting and not guaranteed to be a success  :)

The reason for the post was that I am trying to re-construct a family that lived in Adel in the late 1600s and early 1700s - I have a post asking for help with this on the Yorkshire board - and in starting to cross-reference baptism records from various sources came across the 1702 Adel baptism page, sparking off my interest in this unusual parish register entry. In writing up my results I will certainly need to exercise some care in citations as I hadn't made the distinction between the Borthwick Institute and the West Yorkshire Archive Service and the difference in the records they hold. I will certainly need to add a new appendix taking a more detailed look at these particular PR pages.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Friday 21 May 21 23:08 BST (UK)
Forgive me for seeming not quite on top of all this, but have we actually reached a consensus as to what these planetary symbols actually mean? A day of the week, or an hour of the day?
I don't know about a consensus, but after Sandblown's explicit diagram above I am surprised that you still seem to have doubts - unless you disbelieve the diagram of course ...  :)

I'm not sure how you could assume anything to do with hours of the day - please explain.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Sandblown on Friday 21 May 21 23:10 BST (UK)
Jut viewed the Parish Record on Ancestry, and the Record portion shown in the initial Post is for March 30th  1701, the first Baptism for the begining of that year, after March the 25th 1701. March the 24th was the end of the year for 1700.

The Posters Ancester, John Sçratchard, appears further down the Record, with a Baptism Date of Wednesday (Planet Mercury Symbol) the 9th of December 1702.

The first Baptism undertaken for 1702 took place on the 4th April, after the end of the following March 24th 1701. i.e. the Jullian Year is March 25th to March 24th (confusing I know!)

Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Guy Etchells on Saturday 22 May 21 06:21 BST (UK)
I have checked again using a synoptic calendar (i.e. one showing Julian & Gregorian dates (SC)) after reading the comments and added the SC days accordingly on the lines beginning SC :
I used this calendar http://5ko.free.fr/en/jul.php?y=1702
Previously I had used this calendar http://5ko.free.fr/en/year.php?y=1702
Using this method the days line up better but still not precisely.

Baptism Register for months in 1702 with the Julian days added as shown on a  synoptic calendar.

March 30 :  Thursday, symbol shown Sonntag (Sunday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
SC : Monday
April 6  :     Thursday, symbol shown Sonntag (Sunday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
SC : Monday
April 16 :    Sunday, symbol shown Mittwoch (Friday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
SC : Thursday
April 30 :    Sunday, symbol shown Mittwoch (Friday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
SC : Thursday
May 11  :    Thursday, symbol shown Sonntag (Sunday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
SC : Monday
May 29  :    Monday, symbol shown Mittwoch (Friday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
SC : Friday
June 14  :    Wednesday, symbol shown Donnerstag  (Thursday)  incorrect if denoting day of the week
SC : Sunday
June 22  :    Thursday, symbol shown Sonntag (Sunday) incorrect if denoting day of the week
SC : Monday
July 8     :    Saturday,  symbol shown shown Mittwoch (Friday) incorrect if denoting day of the week.
SC : Wednesday

Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Sandblown on Saturday 22 May 21 07:29 BST (UK)
I have checked again using a synoptic calendar (i.e. one showing Julian & Gregorian dates (SC)) after reading the comments and added the SC days accordingly on the lines beginning SC :
I used this calendar http://5ko.free.fr/en/jul.php?y=1702
Previously I had used this calendar http://5ko.free.fr/en/year.php?y=1702
Using this method the days line up better but still not precisely.

Baptism Register for months in 1702 with the Julian days added as shown on a  synoptic calendar.

Guy, Have You checked the Julian Days of the Week for 1701, as that is the Year appearing on  the posted Parish Record extract, and not 1702. Refer to My Post above.

Mittwoch (Mid Week) is the German Day of the Week, for Wednesday.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 22 May 21 07:49 BST (UK)
Mittwoch (Mid Week) is the German Day of the Week, for Wednesday.

As I said in reply #9 :D
And Andrew Tarr said in reply #12.

Schoolboy German comes in handy, sometimes ;)
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Saturday 22 May 21 09:21 BST (UK)
Schoolboy German comes in handy, sometimes ;)

As I also suggested, schoolboy French shows things better than German :

Monday (Lundi);  Tuesday (Mardi: Mars);  Wednesday (Mercredi);  Thursday (Jeudi: Jupiter);  Friday (Vendredi: Venus).

I checked the perpetual calendar linked above (#20) and most of the dates in the OP matched for 1701.  It's not clear whether that corresponds to '1701' starting or ending in March - which is why transcribers of old records have to show either/or.
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Sandblown on Saturday 22 May 21 09:30 BST (UK)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2256/images/32355_249444-00120?usePUB=true&_phsrc=Lel1&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=8680480

The above Link is for the actual Parish Record on Ancestry. The Poster's Screen Shot is from the top of the PR, which commenced in 1701. The Year 1702, as quoted by the Poster, has been misleading, Us all, since the start of this Thread !
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: Guy Etchells on Saturday 22 May 21 09:56 BST (UK)
I have checked again using a synoptic calendar (i.e. one showing Julian & Gregorian dates (SC)) after reading the comments and added the SC days accordingly on the lines beginning SC :
I used this calendar http://5ko.free.fr/en/jul.php?y=1702
Previously I had used this calendar http://5ko.free.fr/en/year.php?y=1702
Using this method the days line up better but still not precisely.

Baptism Register for months in 1702 with the Julian days added as shown on a  synoptic calendar.

Guy, Have You checked the Julian Days of the Week for 1701, as that is the Year appearing on  the posted Parish Record extract, and not 1702. Refer to My Post above.

Mittwoch (Mid Week) is the German Day of the Week, for Wednesday.

No I was going by the date the original poster gave.
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Seaching PRs and came across these symbols
Post by: mezentia on Saturday 22 May 21 19:47 BST (UK)
Daughter and granddaughter have returned to their home. Peace, Quiet and Calm have re-emerged from the corners whence they hid. Good Order has finished chasing her capricious sister Dis around the house and they now sit at either end of the settee, on the arms, eying each other like a pair of wary cats on a fence waiting to see who first blinks. Lego, crayons, pencils, tissues, dolls’ clothes and various other items of craft material have been rescued from beneath feet, chairs, tables, stools, sofas, beds and stored away ready for the next visit. The Study chair is back at its correct height, and the computer screens back in their proper orientation;  Rootschat is now available on a screen suitable for reading properly.

First, it was never my intention to mislead. As I posted originally, the original baptism I was investigating was for 1702, but wary of copyright infringements, I only clipped a small section of the page to illustrate my question.

To Andrew, I was intrigued by djm297’s post in reference to planetary hours, and as the table on Wikipedia referred to in his post used the same symbols, it seemed plausible that the planetary hour symbols may be related to those on the PR entries.

However, I think we can finally put this mystery to bed. I have since heard from an Adel historian, Val Crompton, that

Quote
in 1685, one Thomas Kirke of Cookridge Hall (1650-1706), undertook to take 'better care of the registers'. He wrote out a system for keeping them more orderly (including a symbol for each weekday) and helped the Parish Clerk, Joseph Athey, write up the entries. Ref. Rector Draper writing in 1908, p103 of 'Adel and its Norman Church'.

I have found an online copy of the book, and the relevant passage is: 

Quote
Dr. Whitaker writing in 1816, when he issued the second edition of the “ Ducatus,” writes : “That the wood so celebrated a century ago has happily relapsed into something approaching its primeval state, the silva pastura of Domesday.” But we at the present day may be allowed a little pleasure in the thought that even now, more than 200 years after Thomas Kirke’s decease, we are still able to see the traces of that stone border round his oval ‘center,’ which used to give him so much pleasure, and where he and his numerous friends would often stand and gaze down the many vistas which his skill had contrived.

He must have been a man of many interests and fine capacity, for besides the cares of family he spent minute pains on copying the ill - written Registers, filling up gaps in them from the pocket - book of John Oglethorpe ( Parish Clerk, buried 1673 ), which he says, “I mett with in the hands of Will. Tate, of Addle ( 1702 ).” So zealous was he for the better care of the Registers that he himself wrote out a system for keeping them ‘more orderly,’ and for a time undertook to help Joseph Athey, who was ‘clark,’ and of whom he says:--

“The Third Book begins in May 1680, by Joseph Athey, Clark, wch is very ill performed : A very bad hand, uncertain figures, & ill method. In the year 1685 I undertooke to put itt in A better method, and writt part of it myselfe, but hee woud mix with me, soe I left it off. — T. K. ”

In a previous note of his about the same subject he had said :

“ In Aprill comes in a pretty little hand ( perhaps Mr . Clarkson' s ), but itt is but in some pages, yº rest are mixed with differing hands ; ye last of the small hand is in 1650. After yt a very bad hand finishes ye book about ye year 1654 - 5.”

These notes reveal the man himself and are all of a piece with the orderly mind and the kindly heart of him who laid out his woods and invited his friends and even stray travellers to enjoy them with him.


Val also sent an image from what I assume is a transcription of the Adel PRs. Therefore, notwitstanding the apparent errors as identified by previous contributors to this thread, the symbols refer to days.

May I once again thank all those taking the time and effort to contribute to this thread, it made extremely interesting reading, and much to my dear wife's consternation, set me off on yet another research trail.  ;D ;D