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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: collin on Friday 21 May 21 19:11 BST (UK)
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Hi
I found that an ancestor was fined 6d in 1758, does anyone know what today's equivalent would be?
Thank you
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2.5p in decimal currency!
Approximately £2.92 in today's money.
(as per https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-converter/)
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6d was half a shilling. 1 shilling =5 new pence or 5p in modern decimal currency.
There are tables online which you can use to calculate modern equivalent values.
A day's wage for a labourer wouldn't have been more than a shilling in 1758.
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Currency converter National Archives. Read the disclaimer before using the calculator.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-converter/
"Inflation: the Value of the Pound 1750-1998" , a research paper published 1999 suggests prices rose by around 118 times in the period. Tables include: price index, retail prices, value of pound, purchasing power of the pound.
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Thank you, I remember the old money well, or proper money as the old folk called it at the time.
£2.92 seems a small penalty for taking part in the Manchester food riot
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Thank you, I remember the old money well, or proper money as the old folk called it at the time.
£2.92 seems a small penalty for taking part in the Manchester food riot
Is it not a bit irrelevant to see it in today’s terms?. You would need to know his level of his wealth.
Imagine a labourer at one shilling a day, sixpence was half a days wage, which he could probably ill afford to lose.
I have an ancestor who was fined one pound and a few shillings costs, in default he went to ‘the house of correction for 14 days, this in 1867. As a labourer that may have been more than a weeks wage.
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When I read the post first I thought it just was asking for the equivalent sum in decimal currency ,but answered the phone and just got back on RootsChat and saw you wanted to know the equivalent value -thanks to another person’s answer.
A pound was 20 shillings ,a shilling was twelve pennies ,so 240 pennies in a pound,so six pence would be one fortieth of a pound.
One fortieth of the new pound ( which has 100 pennies )is 2.5 p.
How inflation has devalued that has been answered already .
Decimalisation was a big cheat !
Viktoria.
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You might find this useful:
https://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/ukcompare/
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Thank you, seems 6d was about half a days wages at that time.
it cost 6d bus fare for me to go to my grannies in 1971, on the first day I got on the bus and said Two and a half new pence please, the bus driver said theres no half fares, 3p, so that was 7d in old money and the first con on the first day!
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Yes and there would be many more!
Shopkeepers, not necessarily being dishonest ,but did the simplest conversions eg ,knitting patterns were about 9d so they became 9p !
Quite a mark up.
£1.00 made up of 240 pennies divided by 9 = is roughly one twenty sixth .
£1.00 made up of 100 pence divided by 9 = roughly one eleventh .
A big difference.
The resemblance to a shilling the ten pence coin bore and the five pence to an old sixpence were deliberate I feel sure .
We wuz dun!
Viktoria.
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The resemblance to a shilling the ten pence coin bore and the five pence to an old sixpence were deliberate I feel sure .
The original 5 New Pence piece was the same size as a shilling and a 10 New Pence piece was the same size as a florin (2 shillings). Are the present coins smaller than original New Pence coins or just lighter? Or is it just me thinking everything is smaller now? There was no new coin worth the same as an old sixpence.
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Do you know I do not remember those sizes ,but we lived abroad at that time so perhaps that is why .
I am going off the sizes now.
When home for a family visit we would buy stuff to take back and would be turning new currency to old currency
then to Belgian Franks . ::)
Viktoria.
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"There was no new coin worth the same as an old sixpence."
And don't I remember that. I had sixpence pocket money a week which remained at 2 and a half pence in new money. Chocolate bars however rose to 3p. Bitter - moi :)
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Annual wage rates 1710-1797 for a variety of occupations.
https://pascalbonenfant.com/18c/wages.html
1755: Notional annual wages of labourers if they were employed all year. Their work may have been seasonal so their real annual wages may have been lower: general labourer £21; agricultural labourer £17.
Wages for skilled workers were higher, depending on the industry.
Women's wages were generally lower.
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Thank you our man was a hat maker so probably skilled textile worker
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I am not sure about that ,only women’s soft bonnets were made of woven fabric, felt hats were rabbit skins treated with mercury ,hence Mad
Hatters - Mad as a Hatter- as it got into their systems and did indeed send them mad.
Beaver skins were used in a similar way.
There were also straw hats ,a type of plaiting .
Stockport was the centre of hat making in the NW.
The skins were treated ,like tanning ,and put on wooden shapes that could be expanded ,for different sizes.”Blocked” .
Viktoria.
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Very interesting, Viktoria - we lived in Cheadle Hulme for a number of years, and obviously had contact with Stockport. I have to say that from personal experience I would NEVER have associated Stockport with hat-making. Tripe, yes! and my daughter running up and down the windows in M & S :-X
And the old 6p was known as a tanner, wasn't it?
Added - and daughter might have received the "smacked legs" for her excursion! She didn't do it again! :-X
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Very interesting, Viktoria - we lived in Cheadle Hulme for a number of years, and obviously had contact with Stockport. I have to say that from personal experience I would NEVER have associated Stockport with hat-making. Tripe, yes! and my daughter running up and down the windows in M & S :-X
And the old 6p was known as a tanner, wasn't it?
Coppers - farthings, ha’pennies, pennies
Joey - 3d
Tanner 6d
Bob - 1s
Half a dollar - 2/6d
Dollar 5/-
Quid or a Nicker - one pound
Half a nicker - 10 Bob ;D
Fiver - 5 pounds
Tenner - ten pounds
Score - 20 pounds
Pony - 25 pounds
Monkey - 500 pounds
Grand 1000 pounds
The coinage terms were common in our house, as was the quid. The rest I learned from my East Ender husband.
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Suey,there is a wonderful Hat museum in Stockport ,but the trade was probably almost defunct when you were there.
Almost every man wore a felt trilby and women’s winter hats were felt too.
I can remember when for a woman to go to church without a hat was- well!
Viktoria.
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Coppers - farthings, ha’pennies, pennies
Joey - 3d
Tanner 6d
Bob - 1s
Half a dollar - 2/6d
Dollar 5/-
Quid or a Nicker - one pound
Half a nicker - 10 Bob ;D
Fiver - 5 pounds
Tenner - ten pounds
Score - 20 pounds
Pony - 25 pounds
Monkey - 500 pounds
Grand 1000 pounds
The coinage terms were common in our house, as was the quid. The rest I learned from my East Ender husband.
In our house a farthing was known as a "robin"! (Actually it was a wren on the coin)
I swallowed a farthing when I was about 3 or 4; my brother panicked and was shouting "Kevin's swallowed a Robin!". ;D
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There were two types of threepenny pieces, a small silver one and the brass/copper many sided one , that had the little Thrift flower on the reverse.
The shape a bit like a present day £1 coin.
A threepenny Meg .
The silver ones went into the Christmas pudding .
Viktoria.
f
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The original 5 New Pence piece was the same size as a shilling and a 10 New Pence piece was the same size as a florin (2 shillings). Are the present coins smaller than original New Pence coins or just lighter? Or is it just me thinking everything is smaller now? There was no new coin worth the same as an old sixpence.
We were decimalised in February 1971 - just over 50 years ago. To begin with, the values which would be retained stayed the same to limit confusion - that was the shilling (5p) and the florin. Anything smaller had no exact equivalent. As the 'silver' coins were bulky, much later they shrank to the size we have now. We had to accept the 7-sided 50p piece instead of ten-bob notes !
It always seemed silly to me that we had florins (2/-) as well as half-crowns (2/6), both huge coins which quickly wore holes in trouser pockets. The reason was that florins were a Victorian attempt at decimalisation which went no further, but that coin persisted.
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Coppers - farthings, ha’pennies, pennies
Joey - 3d
Tanner 6d
Bob - 1s
Half a dollar - 2/6d
Dollar 5/-
Quid or a Nicker - one pound
Half a nicker - 10 Bob ;D
Fiver - 5 pounds
Tenner - ten pounds
Score - 20 pounds
Pony - 25 pounds
Monkey - 500 pounds
Grand 1000 pounds
The coinage terms were common in our house, as was the quid. The rest I learned from my East Ender husband.
In our house a farthing was known as a "robin"! (Actually it was a wren on the coin)
I swallowed a farthing when I was about 3 or 4; my brother panicked and was shouting "Kevin's swallowed a Robin!". ;D
;D ;D ;D Love that!!
Ref from Suey:
Half a dollar - 2/6d
Dollar 5/-
Surely 2/- was a "florin" and 2/6 was "half a crown" ??
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Yes 2/6 was Half a Crown as I remember ,perhaps it was a regional thing.
Was my Dad the only one to call a threepenny piece a Meg?
Viktoria.
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The 2/6d coin was a Half Crown - as it said on the coin itself :D
Commemorative Crown coins (5/-) were issued from time to time - I had one for Winston Churchill's funeral.
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_crown_(British_coin)
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Ref from Suey:
Half a dollar - 2/6d
Dollar 5/-
Surely 2/- was a "florin" and 2/6 was "half a crown" ??
Suey gave a list of slang words for money. My elder brothers (teenagers) called a half-a-crown a dollar. £1 must have been worth 4 dollars once.
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Ref from Suey:
Half a dollar - 2/6d
Dollar 5/-
Surely 2/- was a "florin" and 2/6 was "half a crown" ??
Suey gave a list of slang words for money. My elder brothers (teenagers) called a half-a-crown a dollar. £1 must have been worth 4 dollars once.
It was but many uninformed people assumed it was referring to the American dollar, whereas it was referring to the "Spanish Dollar". This goes way back in history to the Napoleonic Wars when Britain was short of gold & silver coins and imported Spanish dollars to make up the shortfall, even though they contained less silver.
Cheers
Guy
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It was but many uninformed people assumed it was referring to the American dollar, whereas it was referring to the Spanish Dollar. This goes way back in history to the Napoleonic Wars when Britain was short of gold & silver coins and imported Spanish dollars to make up the shortfall, even though they contained less silver.
Cheers
Guy
Very interesting - thank you, once again, Guy.
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Ref from Suey:
Half a dollar - 2/6d
Dollar 5/-
Surely 2/- was a "florin" and 2/6 was "half a crown" ??
Suey gave a list of slang words for money. My elder brothers (teenagers) called a half-a-crown a dollar. £1 must have been worth 4 dollars once.
It was but many uninformed people assumed it was referring to the American dollar, whereas it was referring to the "Spanish Dollar". This goes way back in history to the Napoleonic Wars when Britain was short of gold & silver coins and imported Spanish dollars to make up the shortfall, even though they contained less silver.
Cheers
Guy
Well, I never knew that ! You learn something new every day :D
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As Suey says;
"Well, I never knew that ! You learn something new every day."
Indeed I do. :D
Thanks Guy.
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It was but many uninformed people assumed it was referring to the American dollar, whereas it was referring to the "Spanish Dollar".
If we were uninformed before, we're informed now about it. :)
Added. Spanish dollar aka pieces of eight. I've been well-informed today. My understanding of pirate and parrot lingo has expanded. ;D
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I found that an ancestor was fined 6d in 1758,
seems a small penalty for taking part in the Manchester food riot
Historical background in an article "How much was a loaf of bread?" by John Hearfield.
https://www.johnhearfield.com/History/Breadt.htm
Tables include:
Annual incomes for different classes 1688;
Estimated annual amount spent on various types of food 1688;
Prices of wheat and bread 1575-1825.
British Government introduced a bread Act in 1757 to get people to eat a less high quality bread. A new category of loaf, "Household Bread" was introduced. The Assize of Bread 14th March 1758 set weights and prices of loaf categories; facsimile of table from "London Evening Post" same date.
There were riots again caused by price of bread in 1790's.
Other topics under "History" tab include 18thC roads; Stroud trade directories + a diary 18th & 19th centuries; Yorkshire - Nidderdale, Otley, Swaledale; urban cow-keepers.
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Food riots in Manchester in 1750s. Price of oatmeal, staple food of labourers, doubled during the decade. 1756, 1757 and 1758 were years of high food prices and food riots in Manchester. There food riots again in 1762. Source: "Manchester in the Latter Half of the Eighteenth Century" by W. H. Chaloner
There was more variety in food supplies to Manchester by the end of the century. Source: "A Description of the Country 30 to 40 miles Round Manchester" by John Aiken 1795.
Shudehill Fight 14th-15th Nov. 1757. Four dead, 15 injured. Blue plaque at site.
John Bradshaw of Bradshaw Hall, Shudehill, magistrate and High Sheriff of Lancashire, quelled 1757 riot.
There were major food riots in England 1756-7. Food riots again in 1760's. Chapter 4 "The Politics of Provisions: Food Riots, Moral Economy and Market Transition in England 1550-1850" by John Bohstedt.
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That is very interesting, our ancestor was fined in January 1758 for riotously assembling with others with offensive weapons at Manchester to the great terror of his Majestys subjects on 12 November 1757
Thank you
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Do you know what sentences were passed on others in the mob?
A bit of history about Shudehill where the violence happened in 1757.
Furness Vale History Society
https://furnesshistory.blogspot.com/2020/04/shudehill.html
It was the site of a market named Smithfield in 1822. The name Shude may derive from a word meaning oat husks.
Studehll Conservation Area on Manchester City Council website
https://secure.manchester.gov.uk/info/511/conservation_areas
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Sorry I dont know about the others as they would each have a separate Indictment, our man was Joseph Collins Hatter of Hollinwood, so he had travelled from Oldham to protest. I think that 6d seems lenient for those times. Thank you for the information on Manchester
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Sorry I dont know about the others as they would each have a separate Indictment, our man was Joseph Collins Hatter of Hollinwood, so he had travelled from Oldham to protest. I think that 6d seems lenient for those times.
His offence may simply being present with the mob. He might not have actually done anything.
Newspaper "Manchester Mercury" began publication 1752. Published under various titles, "Harrop's Manchester Mercury & General Advertiser", "The Manchester Mercury & Harrop's General Advertiser". Harrop was a staunch Tory and anti-reformer. Available online in the British Newspaper Archive and Manchester City Council Reference Library.
Another food riot began at the market at Studehill, April 1812, "Studehill Potato Riot".
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I see that November 12 was a Saturday, I can imagine him having a few gills and setting off to join in, probably with a few more? In 1769 he became the first clerk of Hollinwood Chapel so it didnt hold him back. The newspaper might be worth a look, Thank you