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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Ahayes99 on Tuesday 25 May 21 13:54 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone, first time poster so apologies if posting this in the wrong place!
Have searched high and low to find some more information about my great grandmother Sarah Mary Hayes (born Williams).
Starting with what I do know:
- Married my great grandfather John Hayes in St Helens, Lancs, 1912. Marriage certificate gives her name as 'Sarah Williams' and lists her father as John Williams - deceased, miner. They had 4 children together before John died in 1919.
- She was still in St Helens in 1939 register, living with her son, John, my grandfather, and one of her daughters. Dob given as 12/09/1879. (Her name is given as 'Mary Hayes' here.)
- Died 1954, aged 74, in Ormskirk, Lancs. Registered as 'Sarah M. Hayes' - and death certificate signed by a 'J.S. Edwards Hayes' (son) of Homersfield, Harleston, Norfolk who was previously not known to our family. (Subsequently I've managed to find his marriage certificate - 1933 - which gives his age as 23, meaning he will have been born in 1910 before Sarah's marriage to John. Not sure of his biological parentage but he also lists John Hayes as his father on his marriage certificate.)
Beyond this - I'm stumped, given the ubiquitous surname! I can't find Sarah's birth record, nor can I find her in any census. I can't find the birth of J.S. Edwards Hayes registered c.1910, nor do I know where he was born or what name he'll have been registered with. It would be really great to get some pointers or hear from people who've encountered similar obstacles, and if there might be something I'm missing that could blow this line of our research open! It would be nice to understand the Edwards connection, and the link to Norfolk, but mainly I'm keen to know where both Sarah and her parents were born, and who they were, so I can continue to trace this line back.
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Welcome to rootschat
What information does the 1912 marriage certificate give regarding abodes of Bride & Groom, also who were the witnesses
ADDED You mention J S E Hayes, have you located him in 1939 register to establish a date of birth
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Thanks for the welcome and the reply!
Sarah lived at 30 Mount Street, St Helens at the time of their marriage.
John lived at 66 Cambridge Road, St Helens.
Witnesses to the wedding were John Neal and Maud Tickle - from my research, I think they both lived together at 57 Clyde Street at the time.
The marriage took place at a methodist chapel, rather than the Church used by many other members of the family (suggesting a whiff of scandal) and Maud Tickle's occupation in the 1911 census is 'chapel cleaner' which leads to a fairly depressing hypothesis, although it may be a coincidence.
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J S E Hayes, have you located him in 1939 register to establish a date of birth
Welcome.
James S E Hayes married Veronica M McClurg (born 1913)
What does the initial S stand for?
Veronica is in Doncaster in 1939?
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At the time of the 1912 marriage in St Helens John was 34 and Sarah 31. John's father was Richard and Sarah's John. Winesses were John Neal and Maud Tichle. Marriage was Primitive Methodist
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J S E Hayes, have you located him in 1939 register to establish a date of birth
Welcome.
James S E Hayes married Veronica M McClurg (born 1913)
What does the initial S stand for?
Veronica is in Doncaster in 1939?
Thank you. ;)
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J S E Hayes, have you located him in 1939 register to establish a date of birth
Welcome.
James S E Hayes married Veronica M McClurg (born 1913)
What does the initial S stand for?
Veronica is in Doncaster in 1939?
Thank you! The 'J.S. ' is for 'James Stanley.'
Veronica is indeed in Doncaster in 1939 - but no sign of James. Their 4 children were registered in Prescot (registration district for St Helens) between 1934 and 1946 including children in both 1939 and 1940, which makes the Doncaster thing another strange link.
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Birth in 1939 registered as Hayes and Edwards-Hayes
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FWIW there's a tree on ancestry with Sarah's parents & birth in Denbighshire, might be worth contacting tree owner & you can assess their sources.
ADDED: This tree cites 1881 RG11; Piece: 5513; Folio: 110; Page: 16 & 1891 RG12; Piece: 4613; Folio: 26; Page: 22
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FWIW there's a tree on ancestry with Sarah's parents & birth in Denbighshire, might be worth contacting tree owner & you can assess their sources.
ADDED: This tree sites 1881 RG11; Piece: 5513; Folio: 110; Page: 16
Thank you Josey...I think that particular tree owner might be myself, unfortunately! I was trying to piece it together and built a provisional tree on Ancestry, based on research through the GRO birth records and a bit of census research. (Basically trying to identify John Williams' who were coal miners with daughters called Sarah! Mother's maiden name was Edwards too...but all very uncertain and no documented link to St Helens.)
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Veronica is indeed in Doncaster in 1939
Why is she using that surname?
Debra :)
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Deleted
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So do we stop looking for Sarah from Denbighshire?
You mention her marriage in a Methodist Chapel rather than church ‘as other family members’. Does this mean later family?
Am I right in assuming you don’t have her in earlier censuses?
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So do we stop looking for Sarah from Denbighshire?
You mention her marriage in a Methodist Chapel rather than church ‘as other family members’. Does this mean later family?
Am I right in assuming you don’t have her in earlier censuses?
I wouldn't rule out Sarah from Denbighshire - but I haven't found anything to conclusively rule her 'in' either.
The 'other family members' comment is based on anecdotal info from my dad who mentioned that the rest of the family tended to be baptised, married and buried at Catholic churches - so I guess contemporary family rather than later family.
I've combed earlier censuses using the usual tools to try and find Sarah in them and while there are plenty of Sarah Williamses (partly the problem), it's just impossible to know which is 'our' one. I guess this is the frustrating downside of family research!
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It would be nice to understand the Edwards connection
It was a common practice to give illegitimate children the putative father's
surname as a middle name.
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In the published tree, Sarah’s mother’s maiden name was Edwards, I think.
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Why is she using that surname?
I think it has been mistranscribed, the lower part of the 'y' in the second part of double barrelled name has been cut off by the black redaction bar of the entry below. And what is an 'H' has been transcribed as 'M'.
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Have you any idea when JSE Hayes died. Did he serve in WW2, I presume that is why he is probably missing in 1939
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1921 census will be worth looking out for J S E Hayes, may have place of birth.
As an aside, why have the last two censuses not had place on birth on? It is so important for genealogy.
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That was what I was thinking too Josey, at least it is not that long to wait now :)
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I don't understand why Sarah's stated death entry is under surname 'Williams' rather than Hayes. Are you positive you have the right death certificate? She married a Hayes, lived as Hayes as late as 1939 so why would she suddenly become a Williams just 5 years later!!
Annette
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I don't understand why Sarah's stated death entry is under surname 'Williams' rather than Hayes. Are you positive you have the right death certificate? She married a Hayes, lived as Hayes as late as 1939 so why would she suddenly become a Williams just 5 years later!!
Annette
Sorry Annette, you are totally right. I made an error in my original post. Will try to edit and correct.
Death was registered as Sarah M Hayes and she was buried with her husband in St Helens Cemetery.
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I think Sarah Williams in the tree was daughter of John Williams and Elizabeth Francis.
Not so many Williams births in Wrexham with mmn Francis, and we can match up birth registrations for all the children, Jonathan, Elizabeth, Margaret, Sarah, Frances (but not with Edwards)
WILLIAMS, SARAH
Mother's Maiden Surname: FRANCIS
GRO Reference: 1878 J Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 315
Veronica Wilson Hayes nee McClurg married again in St Helens in 1957 to Mr Heyes, so either was divorced from James, or he had died.
James though was alive in 1954 and living in Norfolk!
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17 Sep 1859, Ruabon
John Williams, 21, Collier
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Elizabeth Francis, 19
Residence for both Pentrextionydd :-\