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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: middyb on Wednesday 26 May 21 04:14 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
Hoping for some assistance to figure out the surname that is crossed out in the attached image? James ..... ?
This is a birth record from 1901 Waterside Londonderry. Areas of possible connection outside Waterside could be Drumeen /Dungloe Donegal or Ballymagorry /Strabane Tyrone area.
Kindly,
Middy
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Hi Middy, and welcome to RC. :)
Any chance of a slightly larger snippet, so we can compare letters? I can't help but see something along the lines of Johannes, but I think my German surroundings are influencing me. ;D
Thanks,
Karen
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Hi Middy, and welcome to RC. :)
Any chance of a slightly larger snippet, so we can compare letters? I can't help but see something along the lines of Johannes, but I think my German surroundings are influencing me. ;D
Thanks,
Karen
And welcome to Rootschat from me.
My first thought is Silmans, but, as Karen suggests, a larger snippet would be useful.
Philip
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I agree with philip [almost] 'Se(i)lmans' but reserve judgement till we can see more of the same hand.
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My first thoughts were that it could be Scl.....as
Carol
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Good morning everyone! Thank you so much for your willingness to help. This crossed out name is paternal grandfather's biological father (great-grandfather)
Here's the link to the original birth record, it's the first one: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1901/01965/1757878.pdf
I reviewed the handwriting of "Perry Asst. Registrar" from his other written records and concluded the first letter to likely be a "G", I'm not 100% sure of this of course. Led me to consider Gilmour/Gilmour? But no strong Gilmour/Gilmore lines in the DNA results. Lots of Gallaghers tho! :)
Some additional information in case it is helpful with location connections as hints:
- I believe I've traced Kate Boner (great grandmother) via 1901 census records and DNA back to Dungloe, Donegal, born in 1878 to John Boner and mother Catherine (O'Donnell), but not 100% sure it's her. I located the baptismal record for John James Bonner St Columb’s Church on Chapel Road, Waterside Derry with Catherine as mother. I cannot find any trace of her after this. I continue to search for her.
- Grandfather grew up in Ballymagorry. He is in the 1901 census with his mother Catherine and next appears in the 1911 Census as Johnie Bonar age 10, boarder with Hugh and Annie Devine. Various school records as John James Devine until his passage to Canada in June 1926 as John James Devine.
Thank you again for your help on this!
Best,
Middy
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I'll toss in 'Fellows'.
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I'm still seeing Selmans after a day of looking at it on and off!
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My first thought was Gilmour also - before I read your reply #5 - but I couldn't find any "G's" on the page to compare.
Then Filmour, but there is an "F" for father on the third entry.
Then I thought the first letter of the name looked like the other "T's" on the page, but then it would have to be Tilman, and the ending does not look like "man" to me.
So, I'd go with Gilmour also. Are there any men named James Gilmour in the area?
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If you can't account for the Gallagher DNA and it is a close enough link, then maybe look for a James Gilmour with Gallaghers in his ancestry.
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Or the father's name really was Gallagher and he didn't tell Kate the truth, or Kate didn't tell the registrar the truth.
Do the Gallagher DNA links go back to this area of Londonderry or to Dungloe, Donegal? If so, you might need to look at the Gallagher trees more than your own family's for a while to see if you can find a possible father.
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Did Kate/Catherine have links to any families living in Cuthbert Street at the time?
Did she have links to the family you believe John James is with in 1911, given they are in County Tyrone and none, other than John, seem to have links with Londonderry or indeed, Donegal?
Any names of sponsors on baptism record?
Have you ruled out the death of a 24yr old spinster Catherine in Fahan in 1909?
His last address on going to Canada in 1926 was in Strabane, did he move there for work or could he have had relations there?
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For reference, the records middyb is using:
1901 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Waterside/Cuthbert_Street/1539951/
Catherine has been recorded as married, albeit isn't on birth record for John James.
1911 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Ballymagorry/Milltown/849805/
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Did your grandfather have any sons? Are they alive? If not, did they have sons who are alive?
If you have a male descendant in the male line from your grandfather you could have his y-DNA tested. That could provide a good clue to who your grandfather's father was, since the y-DNA is passed only from father to son.
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Hello again everyone! Thank you again for your insights and help on this.
After arriving in Canada, John James settled in Toronto and had 6 children (3 boys / 3 girls) There are male descendants, two have been tested so far. They are haplogroup R-Z255 (Irish Sea). I'm hoping more of them will get tested and will take a specific y-DNA too. This will definitely help things!
Now that you've reminded me of this, I've checked both the Gilmore/Gilmore and Gallagher family DNA projects and they're not R-Z255. All these Gallagher matches must come from Catherine's side in Donegal. I'll do some more digging on the R-Z255 in the DNA matches we do have and see if I can get anywhere with this marker.
For Catherine / Kate - I'll look for the 1909 death and see if may be her. Thank you for this as well!