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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: skitrees on Friday 28 May 21 07:23 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to find the father of my Thomas Townley (my 6th GG) who was buried in 1774 in St Elphin, Warrington. He married Sarah Wright in Newchurch, Kenyon, Lancashire on the 10 Feb 1730. I have no clue to his parentage and as with many family trees out there, they all have the wrong information pertaining to this Thomas. Many trees have Geoffrey as his father but this is incorrect, there are also suggestions in trees that he is of the Townley esq's, particularly Thomas Townley esq, but this isn't correct either, as this family is well documented and shows that that Thomas didn't have any children. The family seem to come from Lancashire with early roots in Warrington (many family events were held at St Elphins there.)
So the big question is where did Thomas my 6th GG come from? Another question that I would also love to know is Thomas Townley, baker and yeoman (1739-1807)- why would he be a yeoman and have land as well as be a baker?
The information below has been very well documented and is very well supported by evidence so I have included it just in case it helps...just to give a bigger picture.
Thomas and Sarah Wright had a son Thomas Townley, baker and yeoman (1739-1807) who married Ellen Moss on the 7 Feb 1768 at St Elphins. Thomas and Ellen also had a son called Thomas Townley (born in 1773)
Thomas Townley, watchmaker (1773) married Mary Hill in Rainford Lancashire in 1797 and they also had a son called Thomas Townley (1804-1884)
Thomas Townley, watchmaker (1804-1884) married married Eliza Wignall on 7 October 1834 in Keighley, Yorkshire. They had a son called Thomas Edwin Townley, watchmaker (1840-1901) who married Mary Ellen Stretch on 3 June 1865 in Wakefield, Yorkshire.
I am hoping you might be able to assist me in some way as I have come to a complete standstill.
Cheers
Karen
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I note that the banns were also read at Winwick and their eldest son was Robert born Warrington 1733.
If they followed the English naming pattern his father would be Robert, There is only one Thomas baptised in the County on family search that was 21 Apr 1712 Wigan All Saints, Lancashire but there may be others elsewhere. There are also about 15 other baptisms in the County for Thomas Townley.
I think you can definitely rule out Thomas Townley baptised Leigh, Lancashire 25 May 1707
died 17 Aug 1712 father Geoffery Townley
Do you have a birth record for Sarah?
Colin
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Thomas and Sarah Wright had a son Thomas Townley, baker and yeoman (1739-1807)
Welcome.
Will of Thomas Townley of Warrington, yeoman, proved 18 April 1807, starts here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D179-NY1
Father? On LANCAT
1747
1a) the Revd. John Williamson of Liverpool, clerk and Frances his wife
1b) Samuel Shaw of Liverpool, merchant
2) Thomas Townley of Warrington, breadbaker
Lease and Release of a parcel of land on the east side of Dallam Lane in Warrington called Spakeman's Acre or the Little Acre.
Again in 1757
1) Thomas Townley of Warrington, breadbaker
2) Roger Rogerson of Warrington, ironmonger
Lease and Release of a close of land on the east side of Dallam Lane in Warrington called Spakeman's Acre or the Little Acre.
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Hi ColC
Thanks for answering. I eliminated Geoffrey as the father for the same reason. I'm not sure if they followed names in a traditional way but they certainly love the name Thomas but it wasn't necessity used for the first son through the generations. You could be into something though.
I don't have anything concrete on Sarah aside from her marriage and burial details. Interesting though that there is a watchmaker called Richard Wright around the same time and something inspired Thomas and Sarahs grandson Thomas to become a watchmaker-I could be on the wrong track here but you never know.
One other hint that I have is through their son Thomas's will in 1807 - he was a yeoman/baker and appeared to be landed and have money. In his will mentions his son Thomas a watchmaker in Liverpool ( this is how I connected them) and he also bequeaths items to a Richard Heath or Hearth of Warrington as well. It's the only other clue I have.
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Thanks @Jonw65- that will provided me with a major break through when I was trying to find who Thomas Townley the founding watch maker (married to Mary Hill) father was. So I wonder where did Thomas obtain his land from? I know that one land transaction mentions a sum of something like 240 pounds- not a small amount of money.
On another tangent- how do you reply to comments- this is a pretty clunky messaging system or am I missing something?
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Hi
I can see Thomas was age 69 on burial record, 4 July 1774, Warrington. A baker
Down the bottom
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9G4-92PW
Which should mean he was born 1704/5 ish!
If you want to reply to a particular comment, you can (if you wish) "insert quote" and include either the whole post, or just include part of it. If you are only going to select part of it, things can sometimes goes wrong!
John
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If you want to reply to a particular comment, you can (if you wish) "insert quote" and include either the whole post, or just include part of it. If you are only going to select part of it, things can sometimes goes wrong!
John
[/quote]
Testing this and letting you know that I struggled to find a Thomas Townley born around 1705 that matches the criteria, unless he moved there from somewhere else.
Edited- I tried the quote but it's a fail.
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I wonder if this is Sarah on Family Search, spelt as transcribed.
Sara Wright
Baptism 13 May 1705
Farnworth Near Prescot, Lancashire
Father's Name: Thoma Wright
There is also this on FS, image shows
Thos Townly baptism 10 Mar 1706
All Saints, Newton, Lancashire father Jas Townley
A George Townley also had an unnamed child baptised there in addition there are others unnamed.
Colin
PS. When you reply just click the word Quote to Reply.
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So the big question is where did Thomas my 6th GG come from? Another question that I would also love to know is Thomas Townley, baker and yeoman (1739-1807)- why would he be a yeoman and have land as well as be a baker? [/b]
Thomas and Sarah Wright had a son Thomas Townley, baker and yeoman (1739-1807) who married Ellen Moss on the 7 Feb 1768 at St Elphins. Thomas and Ellen also had a son called Thomas Townley (born in 1773)
Thomas Townley was resident in Culceth parish when he married Sarah at Newchurch in Culceth parish church, Feb. 1730/1. I think that just means that he'd been resident there long enough for it to qualify as his abode, possibly as long as a year, possibly as short as a few weeks; I don't know what residency rules were then relating to marriage in a parish.
Sifting through baptisms and burials of Townley children at St. Elphin, Warrington on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks www.lan-opc.org.uk I see that at least one Thomas was an innkeeper in 1790's. If the inn had land attached and if the property could be passed to heirs (e.g. a lease for 3 lives) then Thomas would have become a yeoman.
My innkeeper ancestors in 18th & early 19th centuries in Lancashire were yeomen. Their inn was the coaching inn in the centre of a small coastal town with stables &c + cottages attached + land behind for horses, (coaching inns had to keep spare horses for the stagecoach), cattle + other farm animals (to feed guests). A document in Lancashire archives is a lease granting a parcel of "waste" land newly enclosed between the inn and the sea to my 5x great-grandfather. My ancestors combined innkeeping with their other family occupation of butcher in 18thC. Both occupations were part-time in a small, quiet town until seaside holidays took off and the inn became very profitable. It wasn't uncommon at the time for an innkeeper to have another occupation. He could do his other work, leaving wife and children to look after the inn and serve customers at quiet times.
Burial 1792 St. Elphin, Warrington, Sarah Townley age 23 daughter of Thomas Townley, innkeeper.
Sarah's age fits with this baptism at the same church: 28th Feb. 1769 Sarah Townley, daughter of Thomas & Ellen, occupation baker.
Other baptisms which may have been children of this couple, William 1770, Thomas 1773, Betty 1776, Margaret 1779 (probably Peggy buried 1781), John 1781. Father's occupation was baker at all the baptisms.
Was this a different Thomas?
Baptism 29th Jan. 1797 St. Elphin, Warrington,
Sarah Townley daughter of Thomas & Mary, occupation publican.
The Thomas Townley who died 1807 aged 67 had baker as his occupation in the burial register. Had his son taken over the inn?
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[quote author=skitrees link=topic=849302.msg7166570#msg7166570 d
Thomas Townley, watchmaker (1773) married Mary Hill in Rainford Lancashire in 1797 and they also had a son called Thomas Townley (1804-1884)
[/quote]
Several baptisms at Pitt Street Chapel, Liverpool 1798-1808. (Wesleyan Methodist chapel)
Was that the same couple who had Thomas baptised at St. Mary the Virgin, Prescot 1804 + 2 children buried there, William 1800 and an unbaptised child 1808?
Prescot was an important watchmaking town.
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Burial at Warrington, 4 Dec 1751
Sarah, wife of Thomas Townley, Bread b...
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99G4-M93F-8
Very soon after!
Marriage by licence at Grappenhall, 2 Feb 1751/2
Thomas Townley Breadbaker and Sarah Danteth (or Denteth), both of Warrington
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XXH3-33Z
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Bap 7 June 1754, Warrington
Margaret, Dau to Thomas Townley + Sarah his wife
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99G4-M93Z-J
Burial of a Peggy, dau of Thomas Townley & Sarah, 18 Dec 1755 (Lancashire OPC)
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Marriage by licence at Grappenhall, 2 Feb 1751/2
Bond here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D1R9-XVZ
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Baptism of a Thomas Toundley, father Christopher, 8 July 1711, Hollinfare
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQP7-XY1
A baptism of a Christopher, son of Thomas Townly, 1 April 1744, Newchurch in Culcheth
Info from Lancashire OPC
Probably nothing to do with "our" Thomas, but mention it anyway, as N in C has come up!
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jon65 I'd noticed the baptism of Margaret 1754, daughter of Thomas & Sarah and then the burial of Sarah wife of Thomas 1751 and was puzzled.
Possible burial of wife Sarah number 2.
19th May 1786 St. Elphin, Warrington
Sarah Townley, widow aged 74
So she'd been a mature bride.
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19th May 1786 St. Elphin, Warrington
Sarah Townley, widow aged 74
So she'd been a mature bride.
Well spotted! So perhaps had only that one child with Thomas, Margaret, who seems to have died soon after.
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I wonder if Thomas was baptised at St. Oswald, Winwick.
I also wonder if his family may not always have been C. of E. The younger Thomas married Ellen Moss by licence in 1768. Some couples who didn't want to attend the parish church for reading of banns got a licence instead if the groom could afford the cost.
There was a Presbyterian chapel from 1660's.
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Well spotted! So perhaps had only that one child with Thomas, Margaret, who seems to have died soon after.
Thomas & Sarah #1 lost several children. 3 died in less than a month in 1735 and another the next year. Sarah #1 had 3 babies named Thomas. :(
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Thanks for that Colin.
I'll do some investigating.
quote author=ColC link=topic=849302.msg7166728#msg7166728 date=1622215457]
I wonder if this is Sarah on Family Search, spelt as transcribed.
Sara Wright
Baptism 13 May 1705
Farnworth Near Prescot, Lancashire
Father's Name: Thoma Wright
There is also this on FS, image shows
Thos Townly baptism 10 Mar 1706
All Saints, Newton, Lancashire father Jas Townley
A George Townley also had an unnamed child baptised there in addition there are others unnamed.
Colin
PS. When you reply just click the word Quote to Reply.
[/quote]
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Thanks @Maiden Stone
There's no mention of innkeeper in any documents I've found that relate to the family. Thomas yeoman owned land that he leased to others but I don't think it was an inn. He was always referred to as a baker/ breadbaker or yeoman on baptisms/wedding/births etc.
Yeoman Thomas's son became a watchmaker- this is referred to in his will in 1807 where he bequeaths items to "Thomas Townley my son a watchmaker in Liverpool'.
Yeoman Thomas did have a daughter Sarah- her baptism you referred to is correct. I don't know when she died so will look into the death you mentioned.
I think the Sarah Townley baptised Jan 1797 with the publican father is incorrect. Thomas (watchmaker) and Mary Hill were married on the 11 June 1797 and their first son was born in April 1798.
Thanks for your help,.
Karen
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A quick remarriage. Yes Sarah dies in Warrington, 4 Dec 1751
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I think the Sarah Townley baptised Jan 1797 with the publican father is incorrect. Thomas (watchmaker) and Mary Hill were married on the 11 June 1797 and their first son was born in April 1798.
There were 2 Thomas Townley & Mary marriages at St. Elphin, Warrington.
1778 Mary WAMBLOW (?)
1793 Mary PLACE
Some baptisms at St. Elphin with parents Thomas & Mary:
1779 Margaret, father's occupation baker
1781 John, father's occupation baker
1797 Sarah, father's occupation publican
Which Thomas Townley, baker was father of Margaret and John?
A burial of a Mary Townley at St. Elphin 1807, age 54, wife of Thomas
Another Thomas Townley married Mary HINDLEY at St. Oswald, Winwick 1787.
Baptisms of likely children at St. Mary, Leigh, abode Bedford or Culceth.
Burial 1812 Parish Church Newchurch Mary Townley age 42, wife of Thomas Townley and child of Thomas Hindley of Bedford & Ann.
Trying to understand who all the Thomas Townleys were.