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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: NevilleTB on Wednesday 02 June 21 08:35 BST (UK)
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I have hit a brick wall in tracing further back than my great grandparents. They arrived in Australia from Ireland in the late 1800s. The great grandparents were James Joseph Moran and Ann Moran (born Stafford) They were born in Ireland, possibly in Cork.
My grandmother was Francis Maria Moran born 1894. At the time they lived in Paddington in Sydney. There were a number of siblings including Hugh, Kevin and Patricia. Not sure of other names. Although the family were strict Catholics, Kevin who was the youngest became a CofE Minister.
I have exhausted any sources I can find. Can anyone suggest another path around the brick wall?
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
James and Annie's marriage certificate should have the names of both sets of parents and fathers' occupations, as well as ages and birthplaces for the bride and groom.
557/1891
MORAN, JAMES J
STAFFORD, ANNIE
SYDNEY
https://www.nsw.gov.au/topics/family-history-search
Debra :)
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My grandmother was Francis Maria Moran born 1894. At the time they lived in Paddington in Sydney. There were a number of siblings including Hugh, Kevin and Patricia. Not sure of other names.
You can search for the births of James and Annie's children - I can see 9 births registered, all in Paddington. Two died as children.
https://www.nsw.gov.au/topics/family-history-search
Debra :)
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James 1919 death reg does not seem to name Parents;
Anns does;
MORAN ANN 12849/1926 JOHN/MARY BOWRAVILLE
Trish :)
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The eldest son James Joseph was KIA in 1917.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=7986265
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1456933/JAMES%20JOSEPH%20MORAN/
MORAN - Killed in action, Bullecourt, May 1917, (previously reported missing), Private James Joseph Moran, 17th Batt., dearly loved eldest son of Mr. and Mrs. J. J. Moran, Hopewell-street, Paddington,
aged 21 years. R.I.P.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15778852
Debra :)
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The two children died within a few days of each other.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/237367839
MORAN - September 3rd, at No. 9 Windsor-st., Paddington, Roger Ambrose, aged 4 years, and on September 7, at 30 Spicer-st., Woollahra, Kathleen Elizabeth, aged 10 years and 6 months, beloved children of James and Annie Moran. Suffer little children to come unto Me.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14408673
MORAN - The Friends of Mr. and Mrs. JAMES MORAN are kindly requested to attend the Funeral
of their dearly beloved eldest DAUGHTER, Kathleen Elizabeth, to move from the residence of her aunt, Mrs. Gaynor, No. 30 Spicer-street, Woollahra, at 9 o'clock THIS (Monday) MORNING, for the Waverley Cemetery.
Sarah GAYNOR was actually James' aunt. Her obituary:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108254078
Marriage
681/1856
GAYNOR, JOHN
MORAN, SARAH
SYDNEY
Debra :)
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Sarah MORAN arrived in 1854 on the Araminta with her sister Eliza.
Eliza MORAN, 25, Housemaid, native of Wicklow, Co. Wicklow, parents James and Jane living at Bray, Co. Wicklow, RC, can read and write, no relations in the colony.
Sarah MORAN, 23, Laundress and Dairymaid, native of Glendalough, Co. Wicklow. 'Ditto' from parents onward.
I cannot see a baptism for Sarah, but I think that this a sister, (Sarah later named a daughter Lucy).
Lucy MORAN
Baptism Date: 20 Oct 1830
Baptism Place: Glendalough, Wicklow, Ireland
Diocese: Dublin
Father: James MORAN
Mother: Jane LYONS
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633413#page/65/mode/1up
Debra :)
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James 1919 death reg does not seem to name Parents;
Anns does;
MORAN ANN 12849/1926 JOHN/MARY BOWRAVILLE
Trish :)
I don't think that is her in Bowraville?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/60809265/anne-moran
Debra :)
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Trust me for taking deaths from a Tree :-[
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Here she is, it took awhile!
Sep 1942
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17813924
MORAN - The Relatlves and Friends of the late ANNIE MORAN are invited to attend her Funeral to leave our private Chapel, 401 Pacific Hlghway, Crows Nest, THIS AFTERNOON at 1.15 o'clock for the Catholic Cemetery, Botany.
MORAN - The Relatives and Friends of Miss MONA MORAN and Messrs JACK, KEVIN, HUGH and LES MORAN and Mr. and Mrs H SETTREE are Invited to attend the Funeral of their dearly loved MOTHER Annie Moran. For details see above notlce.
MORAN, ANNIE
20827/1942
Father: JOSEPH
Mother: SARA ANN
NORTH SYDNEY
This looks like her mother:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/238517254
5 Aug 1895
THE Friends of JAMES and ANNIE MORAN are respectfully Invited to attend the Funeral of their beloved mother, Sarah A. Stafford; to move from 49 Yurong-st, Woolloomooloo. THIS (MONDAY) AFTERNOON. at 2.40 to Waverley Cemetery.
STAFFORD SARAH A
7196/1895
Father: ANTHONY
Mother: ANN
SYDNEY
Debra :)
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Annie STAFFORD was born in Sydney and so was her mother Sarah.
Birth
STAFFORD, ANNIE
3166/1868
Father: JOSEPH J
Mother: SARAH A
GLEBE
Marriage
611/1865
STAFFORD, JOSEPH JOHN
ELLIOTT, SARAH A
SYDNEY
Birth
ELLIOT SARAH A
3275/1843 V18433275 27A
Father: ANTHONY
Mother: ANN
Anthony and Ann's immigration record:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6LHJ-V9
Debra :)
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Correspondence in James Jnr's WW1 record shows that his father was still alive in 1923 and have just spotted him on electoral rolls with Annie and son Kevin in Petersham in 1930, and Newtown in 1933. He is not with them in 1935.
MORAN, JAMES J
8144/1933
Father: ANDREW
Mother: MARY
NEWTOWN
His funeral notice is really poorly OCR'd.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16971916
MORAN - The relatives and friends of Mrs Annie Moran and Family (late of Paddington) are kindly invited to attend the funeral of her beloved husband and their dear father James Joseph, to leave T. Dixon's funeral parlours, this Thursday afternoon at 2 o'clock for Catholic Cemetery, Botany.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/175068861/annie-moran
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/175068893/james-joseph-moran
Debra :)
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James' father Andrew MORAN died in 1898, more family to investigate here.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14172148
MORAN, ANDREW
3930/1898
Father: JAMES J
Mother: JANE
WOOLLAHRA
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/218656532/andrew-moran
Wife Mary
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/218656529/mary-moran
Debra :)
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WOW!!! Thanks so much Dundee and Trish. When I looked this morning I had no expectations of the amount of information you both found. I only started putting together a tree a few months ago and still learning where to go for information and how to search for it. Any tips you can give me as to how you found all this information would be appreciated. I have mainly relied on MyHeritage where I am building the tree, Google searches and Trove.
You are probably well aware, but I am finding trees just duplicate other trees and often the results are dubious. I am learning from my mistakes. This website seems to be a gold mine for people new to genealogy such as myself. Hopefully, you can teach me a few skills I have yet to find.
I will follow the leads you have provided over the next day or so and report back on what I find.
Neville
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Excellent work Debra ;D
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Still putting it all together. Just amazing work Debra. I have no idea how you found all this information. Are you a Covid contact tracer??? ;) From what I can see, James probably came to Australia first, and Annie followed. She was travelling as Moran, so was married, and with Eliza who may have been her sister-in-law. Still working on that theory. I now have to trace James arrival.
I have a few questions about what you provided. The post you did at 13.10 (what were you doing up at that hour???) did not have a link to the immigration record, and also I am not sure, and have trouble deciphering the link you provided. What is the Glendalough record? I have trouble reading it.
There is one interesting name that I remember from my grandparents. Arawata which was the name of the boat that brought Annie, was also the name of my grandfather's family home on the Central Coast at Empire Bay. There was some connection between the Moran family and the Settree family. Francis Maria, my grandmother, married Robert Harold Settree. Somehow the families knew one another from their trip to Australia. I suspect it may have been through Captain William Morrow Settree but I need to do more digging. Perhaps James came out on his boat.
I did find a list of passengers on the Araminta and James was not on the boat.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12957269 (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12957269)
Debra, you have been an enormous help. I cannot thank you enough. I will keep you posted as I unravel the mystery further. I am hoping to do some more tomorrow.
Neville
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What is the Glendalough record? I have trouble reading it.
It's a baptism register from Glendalough Catholic parish. Images of many registers of Catholic parishes are viewable free on the National Library of Ireland website.
Catholic Parish Registers at the National Library of Ireland
https://registers.nli.ie/about
Baptism register began 1807, marriage register began 1808.
The image is faint. I enlarged it and adjusted contrast to read it.
Sponsors (godparents) were Esther Ward (?) and Thomas Moran. Thomas Moran would likely have been the child's uncle but may have been another relative.
Earliest registers in the collection for Bray parish date from 1768 which is very early for R.C. registers in Ireland. It has only a few entries and seems to include other parishes. Other Bray registers are baptisms 1792-1821 and 1822-1856 and marriage registers for the same span of years. There's also a marriage register for Little Bray 1866-1901.
Bray is a coastal town, south of Dublin, the capital city of Ireland. Glendalough is inland.
Glendalough is an ancient settlement. St. Kevin founded a monastery there in the 6th century. It's a beautiful place, popular with tourists. There was lead mining 1825-1957. (I listened to a radio programme about the mining last year which included an interview with a former miner.)
Glendalough Heritage Forum
https://glendalough.wicklowheritage.org
Website has a brief history. Menu includes Glendalough Graveyard Survey.
Irish Genealogy Toolkit has guidance for researching Irish ancestors.
https://irish-genealogy-toolkit.com
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I have been doing some more digging and come up with a timeline. Unfortunately, it is too big to post in one file so I have divided it into three. I will spread it over three posts. Still a few gaps and inconsistencies but slowly coming together thanks to those who have provided sources.
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Part 2 and 3
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I have been doing some more digging and come up with a timeline.
No that is not right. Let's start again, I know it is a lot to take in. You have your Sarahs mixed up ;D
Annie STAFFORD married James Joseph MORAN in 1891.
557/1891
MORAN, JAMES J
STAFFORD, ANNIE
SYDNEY
Annie STAFFORD was born in Australia and her parents were Joseph John STAFFORD and Sarah Ann ELLIOT.
My post #10
Annie STAFFORD was born in Sydney and so was her mother Sarah.
Birth
STAFFORD, ANNIE
3166/1868
Father: JOSEPH J
Mother: SARAH A
GLEBE
Marriage
611/1865
STAFFORD, JOSEPH JOHN
ELLIOTT, SARAH A
SYDNEY
Birth
ELLIOT SARAH A
3275/1843 V18433275 27A
Father: ANTHONY
Mother: ANN
Anthony and Ann's immigration record:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6LHJ-V9
Debra :)
The details I gave here are supported by newspaper notices and the death details for Annie's mother Sarah STAFFORD nee ELLIOT.
The MORANs......
Annie's husband James Joseph MORAN was born in Ireland the son of Andrew and Mary. Andrew had at least two sisters, Sarah and Eliza (so they were James' aunts) and they came out together on the Araminta. Sarah MORAN married John GAYNOR and she is mentioned in the various death notices. The parents of Andrew, Sarah and Eliza were James MORAN and Jane LYONS.
Debra :)
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Ancestry has the immigration deposit books which show details of people in Australia who sponsor others to also emigrate from Ireland.
In January 1881, Sarah GAYNOR was refunded her deposit for those people who did not end up coming out. They were Andrew MORAN (48), his wife Mary (47) and son Denis (15). James (17) is noted as arriving on the Northampton in 1880.
You can see James on the manifest here, a 17 year old carpenter from Wicklow.
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5316/4_4805/Northampton_24%20Dec%201880/4_480500089.jpg&No=14
Andrew and Mary's address in Ireland was 13 Dock Terrace, Bray, Wicklow. The reason for not emigrating was 'cannot satisfy regulations' and I would take a guess that they were too old for assisted passage. For Denis the reason was 'declines emigrating'.
Obviously the three of them did end up coming as they all died in Australia. I cannot see a specific record but if they paid for their own passage in full they may not be recorded by name. I have given Andrew and Mary's death details already and Denis died quite young.
MORAN, DENNIS
16002/1891
Father: ANDREW
Mother: MARY
WOOLLAHRA
His funeral notices:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13823158
Debra :)
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Ancestry also has indexes for the Catholic church registers. Sometimes the registers are poorly indexed and often recorded in Latin.
The marriage of Andrew MORAN, son of James MORAN and Jane LYONS, and Mary BYRNE, daughter of Denis BYRNE and Elizabeth McDOWELL (not sure of this surname)
Andreas MORAN
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 27 Nov 1860
Marriage Place: Bray, Ireland
Diocese: Dublin
Father: Jacobi MORAN
Mother: Joanna LYONS
Spouse: Maria BYRNE
Father: Dionysii BYRNE
Mother: Elizabetha McDOWELL?
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633720#page/12/mode/1up
Son James' baptism was recorded as Joseph James.
Josephus Jacobus MORAN
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 31 Dec 1861
Baptism Date: 5 Jan 1862
Baptism Place: Bray, Wicklow, Ireland
Diocese: Dublin
Father: Andreas MORAN
Mother: Maria BYRNE
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633719#page/40/mode/1up
Denis' baptism
Dionysius MORAN
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 7 Oct 1863
Baptism Date: 11 Oct 1863
Baptism Place: Bray, Wicklow, Ireland
Diocese: Dublin
Father: Andreas MORAN
Mother: Maria BYRNE
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633719#page/54/mode/1up
The main page for Bray parish registers.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0509
Andreas = Andrew
Jacobi = James
Dionysii/Dionysius and other variations = Denis
Debra :)
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Hi Debra. Thanks for sorting that out. I was getting totally confused thinking Moran turned up in two generations out of three. I spent a few hours and only tonight tracked down James arriving on the Northumberland. I don't know how you seem able to find all this information that takes me hours to sometimes find. I was really pleased with myself to find this one fact, and you seem to have found another dozen. Still an amateur at this, unfortunately.
I have also been doing some research on the ship Araminta. It did a couple of voyages including in 1852 bringing a group of Scottish immigrants. It seems to have been a significant influence on the Settree family as they named the family home, which became a guest house, Araminta. Need to go through passenger lists, but there was a sea captain, Cptn William Alfred Morrow Settree around that time so maybe there is a link there. Research for another day.
In the next two days, I will sit down and try to put it all together again. Tomorrow is my son's 30th so not going to get anything done then.
I am in Sydney. Where are you located? With a user name of Dundee, would I guess Scotland? Perhaps that is why I am getting worried that you are posting at 1 am and 2 am Sydney time.
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The time shown on Rootschat is UK time as that's where it's based. This post's time is listed as 2.32 and i can assure you that it's 11.32 here at my keyboard on AEST.
And you're right - Debra is a brilliant researcher who can often winkle out information that seems impossible to find.
I am in awe of many of the regulars on this Australia board who go to great lengths and use their experience to help others.
Judith
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Totally agree Judith. I thought when I started this project it was going to be fairly easy. How wrong was I? Without Debra I would have stayed in the dark.
There have been a few surprises. I found five convicts who I was directly related to, which was a few more than I knew about. Most surprising was that my great, great grandmother was a full blood aboriginal. Her father was a famous guy called King Bungaree who was a liaison with the governor and the various aboriginal tribes around Sydney. I am 74 and it took me this long to find out. I suspect it was the skeleton in the closet with the family but fortunately, attitudes change. What else awaits me???
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Working my way through the amazing information Debra has provided. Attached is what I think is the direct lines from me. Still filling in the blanks but it seems to fit.
I am using Myheritage so if anyone is interested go to https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-806242221/turbit?newTree=&rootIndividualID=1500004 (https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-806242221/turbit?newTree=&rootIndividualID=1500004)
Will keep posting until I am happy that I have dug out most of the information and got the people and dates right.
Thanks to those who have helped.
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After a lot of analysing the three pages of posts, I think I have the sequence sorted. I have created a document with what I have found.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/utayfk1o7cfb60c/JamesJosephMoranAndAnnieStafford.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/utayfk1o7cfb60c/JamesJosephMoranAndAnnieStafford.pdf?dl=0)
Thanks to those who have helped particularly Debra. I have no idea how you do it, but you found details I never would have.
Of course, any further details anyone can find would be appreciated, but also this link might help people tracing the same tree. I now move onto the next challenge.
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Another helpful site can be https://irelandxo.com/.
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Another helpful site can be https://irelandxo.com/.
I have my own Irish brickwall, so I think it fits under this topic, but tell me if it's better moved to another thread.
The website is also called "Ireland Reaching Out". It's aim is to link members of the Irish diaspora with the places their ancestors came from. It's based on civil parishes.
It would be better to start a new topic on your Cullen ancestry on the Ireland board (or the Armagh board if you think they were from there) unless they were related to Neville's family. This topic is on the Australia board.
Give your topic a specific title, including the surname Cullen. See advice on guidelines for posting and getting the best from RootsChat under "Help" tab.
Once you have posted your new topic, return to here and delete the details about Daniel Cullen from your post. You can edit a post within 24 hours. After then you need to ask a moderator to edit it for you.