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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: GordonFindlay on Friday 04 June 21 07:59 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to find details of the husband of an aunt.
Jane or Jean Findlay was born in Scotland, 1908 and emigrated to Wellington in 1924. She was not good at paperwork!
She and her husband (that is how he was refered to anyway) Edward James Jones ("Ted") had a child (same name as his father) in cal. 1935. He died 5 Sep 1945, buried 7 Sep 1945 aged 61. (Some transcriptions have 7th as death date but that is wrong.}
A death notice appeared in the Evening Post newspaper, 6 Sep 1945. He was described as the "beloved husband of Jean Jones and father of Edward".
His death certificate is a thin document. There is no indication of a marriage, just the note "Not known whether a widow". There is a note of one male child, age unknown. Nor are his parents names recorded. The informant was the undertaker.
His age was given as 61, birthplace Hales or Wales. (There is a small village named Hales in Norfolk.) So born cal. 1884. He had been in NZ 15 years.
The 1935 Supplementary Electoral Roll for Wellington South lists Jane as a spinster. In the 1938 roll she is married, surname Jones, same address as Edward Jones.
Jane (or Jean - either used at random) married William Joseph Burns in Melbourne, 1954. She called herself a spinster, with her birth surname of Findlay. That marriage registration does not mention her son, or previous marriage (if that is what it was).
She divorced Burns in 1963, but continued to use the surname Burns.
Her death certificate records her as married, and two husbands are listed: Edward James Jones married in Wellington, date omitted, and Burns as above. The "Number of children" is left blank.
I knew her, and she was regarded as the salt of the earth and a real family person, albeit a bit unlucky when her second husband turned out to be a crook.
From this mess I would like to locate the marriage between Jean and Edward. If, of course, it exists. I cannot locate such in the BMD records held by the Dept of Internal Affairs.
Any suggestions gratefully received!
Slainte
Gordon
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Hi Gordon,
I've looked under both names and a few variants but can't find any record. I suspect it was a common-law relationship.
Spades
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Hi Gordon
Just adding death notice for "Edward James JONES" >
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19450906.2.4
So he is "Edward James" in this notice ... but seems he also used "James Edward JONES" (in electoral rolls) ? [ Still exploring this aspect. ]
~ Lu
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I'd certainly be interested in anything definitive about Edward James Jones being one of the James Edward Jones floating around at the same time.
Thanks
Gordon
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The 1935 Supplementary Electoral Roll for Wellington South lists Jane as a spinster. In the 1938 roll she is married, surname Jones, same address as Edward Jones.
Hi again Gordon
Just to clarify, the electoral rolls the couple appeared on were actually for Wellington North.
1935 - lWellington North Supplementary roll
FINDLAY - Jane - Spinster
JONES - James Edward - butcher ... both at 26 Tinakori Road, Wellington.
1938 - Wellington North roll
JONES - Jean - married
JONES - Edward James - butcher ... both at 43 Kenya Street, Ngaio.
[Note: Was curious about the "arrangement" ;D of his forenames - because this is information he (himself) would have provided for inclusion in the electoral rolls ? ]
Have browsed NZ Police Gazettes - am satisfied he is not man of similar name (navy deserter) or other. Still a mystery man though. ;D
I'm with spades too ... it does seem from the information you have from death records, that the union was very likely a common-law one.
I'll explore a little further ... something else might turn up. :D
~ Lu
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Thanks Lu - missed that.
He does appear in the Evening Post, 9 Sep 1936 page 13. He was convicted for making a false entry in a wages book. Called Edward Jones there, but definitely the right man as was manager of the Lambton Meat Co, which my aunt ran after his death. Spent many Saturday mornings there helping to count thousands of small coins!
Thanks for looking.
Gordon
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Hi Gordon
My curiosity was aroused because of the "name" switch on the electoral rolls.
It's those sort of "oddities" I tend to explore further when other things are not adding up. ;D
* So was it only the "marriage" record you were looking for ??
OR are there other aspects you're wanting further information about ?
Incidentally, re: death record for Edward James JONES, did you obtain an actual death certificate ... OR ... a "printout" of the registry entry of his death ?? ( Asking because a certificate of that era, often contains less detail.)
~ Lu
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Hi Lucy
I'm interested in anything, but I doubt there is much.
Can't find his will; birth is given as Hales, although we thought he was born in Wales. I looked at incoming passenger lists but there are a lot of EJ or JE Jones (I'll look at that again).
I'll attach his death details.
Slainte
Gordon
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Jane or Jean Findlay was born in Scotland, 1908 and emigrated to Wellington in 1924. She was not good at paperwork!
She and her husband (that is how he was refered to anyway) Edward James Jones ("Ted") had a child (same name as his father) in cal. 1935. .}
A death notice appeared in the Evening Post newspaper, 6 Sep 1945. He was described as the "beloved husband of Jean Jones and father of Edward".
Hi again Gordon
Cheers for posting death record ... the ... "----- Hales" (birthplace) is certainly a bit odd ?
I think overall, that although the undertaker has supplied info for death record, that probably Jean, has in some way, contributed that information. And she's been honest in acknowledging that she was not his legal wife. [And later, again displayed that honesty, with her second marriage by using her maiden surname, instead of JONES (which we can see was a name she'd been known by for some years.)]
The child > Edward > ... interested to know why you've guessed at his birthdate being c. 1935 ???
[Looking at the age of his father (61 in 1945) I rather imagined the son may have been issue of an earlier relationship ?? That's just my thinking. ]
And of course you've said that you knew Jean personally (and had some fun counting coins in her shop :) ... [something that always appeals to kids, eh ? ;D. ]
So, did you know the child Edward ... or where he was when his Mum took over the butchery business ???
~ Lu
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And the "not known if there is a widow or not" suggests to me that he had been previously married and Jean knew that, but she didn't know if the previous wife was alive or not.
And
re Hales. If Jean wrote that detail down and passed it to the Undertaker. Sometimes a W does look like an H.
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Agree with your thinking (re: widow) McKha. ;) (And an error, if birthplace was taken from say, a written note.)
~ Lu
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... sorry Gordon, forgot to reply re: a Will for Edward J. JONES.
Well, not all people (including business people), had a Will. And not all Wills were probated.
Perhaps, as Jean took over the Butchery business, it may be that all "was in order" at the time of Edward's passing ? And that there was not the need either to apply for administration of his estate ?
Think you mentioned that Edward JONES was the manager of Lambton Meats ? Was he also the owner at a later date ?
Gordon, could you also let us have Jean's date and place of death, please ?
~ Lu
Edited to add further text.
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Wonder if this would be useful?
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=15429352
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,,, had just been about to add that Archives file. ;D
Was going to first ask Gordon if he knew when (date) that Jean relinquished the business ?
~ Lu
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Hi Gordon,
I've ordered the file mentioned by Mckha above in case it has any mention of him.
Hopefully sight it later next week.
Spades
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Wow - lots of interest. Thank you all. Especially for making me revisit documents and assumptions.
To answer questions:
1: Jean died in Auckland, 15 Jun 1970. Her will, which I have, leaves everything to "my son EDWARD JAMES JONES". It was made in 1962, she signs Jean Burns.
2: The son is referred to in the death notice: "beloved father of Edward". We always knew the son as Jimmy. Games with names! He was living with his mother until the late 50s. I don't know what happened between her son and second husband, but in any case she was with her second husband for a very short time.
3: Jones' age in 1935 was ~51, but she was only 27 so I'm not convinced the son must have been from a previous relationship. Perhaps his appearance forced them to marry or pretend to at least.
4: Her son is recorded as 35 years old on her death registration, hence the estimated birth date of 1935. I'll attach the file.
5: It also records two marriages. Her son must have supplied the information but would have no reason to doubt she was married.
6: She is referred to as proprietress of the meat company in Wises directories from 1946 to 1956. By 1959 the building had been taken over by the Ministry of Works for government offices (it's just across the road from both Govt Buildings and Parliament).
7: Thanks for the mention of the ownership records - I had enquired about them.
It certainly begins to seem that the most logical explanation is that she never formally married Jones, but they had a good go at pretending,
Thanks again everyone.
Slainte
Gordon
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.... She divorced Burns in 1963, but continued to use the surname Burns. ....
Her death certificate records her as married, and two husbands are listed: Edward James Jones married in Wellington, date omitted, and Burns as above. The "Number of children" is left blank.
Slainte
Gordon
Cheers for all the clarification, Gordon.
The only reason I'd asked about the child "Edward" and his birth year (and then queried if he'd perhaps been a child of an earlier relationship his father may have had) was not just because of the age gap between Jean and Edward James JONES, but because you'd indicated earlier (^ above), that "the number of children is left blank" on Jean's death certificate.
But on Jean's death certificate, of which you've now posted a copy, her male child aged 35 (in 1970) from marriage (a) is clearly recorded in the column marked "If Living Issue".
~ Lu
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The son?
Death:
1992/37437 Jones Edward James 4 April 1935
Cemetery Record for Edward James Jones
Date of birth
Unknown
Occupation
Radio Despatcher
Date of death
9 May 1992
Age at death
57 years
Gender
Male
Region
West
Cemetery name
Waikumete Cemetery
Remains type
Ash
Date of cremation
13 May 1992
Funeral director
W M Morrison Funeral Directors
Probated will:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=16524483
Minniehaha.
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Could this be Edward James Jones (senior) divorce?
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OTMAIL19290906.2.6?end_date=31-12-1935&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=edward+james+jones&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1896&title=DOM%2cEP%2cNZFL%2cHN%2cHVI%2cKOP%2cMKURA%2cMATUH%2cNZCPNA%2cNZGWS%2cNZMAIL%2cNZSCSG%2cNZTIM%2cOTMAIL%2cPUKEH%2cUHWR%2cVT%2cWAG%2cWDT%2cWAIST%2cWI
1913/7413 Hilda Adelaide Culpan Edward James Jones
There was a child of that union. See later reports below.
Minniehaha.
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And more from the Australian newspapers. Probably some repetition......
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/169323892?searchTerm=edward%20james%20jones
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/169313669?searchTerm=edward%20james%20jones
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16582713?searchTerm=edward%20james%20jones
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16583038?searchTerm=edward%20james%20jones
Minniehaha.
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The son?
Death:
1992/37437 Jones Edward James 4 April 1935
Cemetery Record for Edward James Jones
Date of birth
Unknown
Occupation
Radio Despatcher
Date of death
9 May 1992
Thanks for that. I'd expect that it is him - he was a taxi driver and "radio dispatcher" could well be in a taxi office.
But my sister thinks that she had a sympathy card from him when my mother died in 2007. That might have been from someone else entirely, but I'll certainly follow up.
Thanks for the possible earlier divorce proceedings too. That's great grist for the mill! It gives his birthplace as Mold, Wales.
Thanks again.
Slainte
Gordon
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I think this is the son referred to in the Australian newspapers:
His birth:
JONES LIONEL O
5602/1917
EDWARD J
HILDA A
PARRAMATTA
Death notice details:
JONES Lionel Owen Death notice 02 AUG 1988 Death 71 late of Condell Park 'Sydney Morning Herald' 04 AUG 1988
Added: Death registration...
JONES LIONEL OWEN
18765/1988
EDWARD JAMES
HILDA ADELAIDE
Minniehaha.
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As Gordon has mentioned, Jean & Jane were interchangeable:
Her probated will:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=13077583&digital=yes
Death:
1970/31982 Burns Jane 62Y
Minniehaha.
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Part quote:
"Thanks for the possible earlier divorce proceedings too. That's great grist for the mill! It gives his birthplace as Mold, Wales."
You may find more information about Edward from his 1913 marriage printout. These details would have been provided by the man himself.
Minniehaha.
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From 'NZ TRUTH' 1929. There may be additional snippets here.......
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZTR19290905.2.36?end_date=31-12-1929&items_per_page=10&query=edward+james+jones&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1929&title=NZTR
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZTR19290829.2.9?end_date=31-12-1929&items_per_page=10&query=edward+james+jones&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1929&title=NZTR
Minniehaha.
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Thanks agsin. I found those but can't find any conclusion to the case.
I guess if they didn't get the divorce - one report has the judge complaining about his behaviour - that would explain the lack of a marriage to Jean
Slainte
Gordon
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Charged with assault [1927]……….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168686411?searchTerm=edward%20james%20jones
Minniehaha.
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Decree Absolute [1939].........
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17576714?searchTerm=hilda%20adelaide%20jones
Minniehaha.
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Prior to the Decree Absolute in 1939:
1937- Legal Notice:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/160497882?searchTerm=hilda%20adelaide%20jones
1938- Decree nisi…….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17518285?searchTerm=hilda%20adelaide%20jones
Minniehaha.
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You are on a roll this morning Minniehaha ;D
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Hi Mckha,
I think it has now been established why there was no marriage between Edward James Jones & Jane/Jean Findlay. Well at least before the birth of their son. I did not expect to find the Decree Absolute so late in the piece. Which brings me to the point that perhaps Edward was unaware of the divorce and therefore in a position to marry Jane/Jean.
Minniehaha.
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Wow, I go visiting for a few hours and all this!
So there were two divorces. In the first Edward was the petitioner on grounds pf adultery. That was dismissed. They had been living apart already (15 Sep 1929 report).
In the second Hilda was the petitioner (1937 - 39), alleging desertion. That was obviously successful.
We can speculate that perhaps Jones did not know of the successful divorce, and so didn't marry Jean, and Jean's notification of his death included the note about widow unknown.
And I'm glad to make proper acquaintance of Trove, although this man, and Jean's second husband (called a "scallywag" by my father, at least in front of the children), are the only two in my trees with any links to Australia.
Thanks again.
Slainte
Gordon
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Hi Gordon,
Assuming Edward James (senior) was the father of Edward James (junior), you will note that the latter had an Australian born half-brother. Or is that one of the Australian trees/branches you are referring to?
Added: See reply #21
Minniehaha.
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Hi Gordon,
Assuming Edward James (senior) was the father of Edward James (junior), you will note that the latter had an Australian born half-brother. Or is that one of the Australian trees/branches you are referring to?
At this stage I'll probably note the existence of the half-brother Lionel and leave it at that. Almost all my lines were Ag Lab or fisherfolk from NE Scotland, with enormous families (12 not uncommon) and I'm always in danger of being overwhelmed!
Slainte
Gordon
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From reply #20
The son?
Death:
1992/37437 Jones Edward James 4 April 1935
But my sister thinks that she had a sympathy card from him when my mother died in 2007. That might have been from someone else entirely, but I'll certainly follow up.
Just for completeness sake, that is him; the sympathy card was indeed from someone else entirely.
Slainte
Gordon
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Thank you for clarifying that Gordon. Good to know we were on the right track. :)
Minniehaha.
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Wonder if this would be useful?
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=15429352
I have sighted this large file today. It consists of correspondence between solicitors and the Companies Registrar and does not appear to be useful to genealogists.
Spades
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Many thanks for checking.
Slainte
Gordon