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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Cockneyrebel on Wednesday 09 June 21 11:44 BST (UK)
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The above was a son of John Sheen and Harriett Jane Beasley, he married Gertrude Carter Q4 1887 at Lewisham and they had a child Ellen Gertrude Sheen born 5 Apr 1896 Lambeth baptised 26 Apr 1896 Lambeth St James the Apostle.
I don't know when or where Gertrude was born?
After Ellen's baptism, I can find no records of John, Gertrude, or Ellen?
Cr
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How about the records prior to the 1896 birth?
who, when, where, what age/occupation??
use familysearch and the GRO indexes.
Ellen gertrude's MMN isn't Carter, so maybe that's where you are going awry.
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Good points PaulineJ I was surprised to see the mmn of McCarthy for Ellen's birth at GRO which I presume that Gertrude was a widow before her marriage to John, however can't find a marriage to Carter prior to 1887?
I could find no census record for John and Gertrude at 1891?
According to Ellen's baptism record, John was a paper hanger.
Cr
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I think you have jumped to conclusions with both feet.
locate and give familysearch link to the 1866-born chap in 1871 & 1881.
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Workhouse admissions in Lewisham in 1889 for a Gertrude Sheen born circa 1866.
Calling Servant or Wife.
Admitted from Lee.
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1891 census, Compton Gifford, Devon :-\
Gertrude Sheen, Servant, Married, 27, born London Limehouse
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:W4H7-V6Z
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Birth
SHEEN, JOHN HENRY
Mother's Maiden Surname: MCCARTHY
GRO Reference: 1889 M Quarter in LEWISHAM Volume 01D Page 1183
Carter / McCarthy. It's not impossible, is it.
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Thank you jonw65, seems very likely that they had a son with the same name as him, and the 1891 census in Devon also seems likely but wonder where John and the son were then? Presumable John Henry the husband must've been still alive as Ellen was born in 1896?
Not too sure PaulineJ about the references to the censuses as that was when John was single?
Cr
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Not too sure PaulineJ about the references to the censuses as that was when John was single?
Cr
and they should show which part of the large area covered by Greenwich and adjacent districts he considered himself to have been born. THAT belief would have continued after marriage.
Pauline.
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In that case Pauline: in 1871 he was at George Street Upper, Greenwich and at 1881 Old Woolwich Rd, 1 Hampshire Place.
Cr
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Not what was asked for, but maybe someone else will be prepared to look up what you cannot be bothered to provide. Pauline
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It would be helpful if you asked for exactly what you wanted? I'm not a mind reader, Pauline.
Cr
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ANY AND ALL RECORDS at the time of birth or later and prior to 1887 marriage .
Including parents/siblings
who, when, where, what age/occupation??
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OK here goes:
Father John or Joannes Sheen 1840-1916. mother Harriett Jane Beasley 1842-1928, children John Henry was eldest, Alice Jane b1868, Edith Elizabeth b1870, Edward b1872, Henry George b1876, Harriet Ann b1879 and Annie Elizabeth b1881 children all born Greenwich. Father born Deptford baptised at Our Ladye Star of the Sea 9/8/1840; mother born Greenwich baptised 8 Jan 1843 St Alphege.
John and Harriett married 24 Sep 1865 Deptford St Nicholas.
At 1871 they were living at 2 Upper George St East Greenwich with 3 children, at 1881 lived at Old Woolwich Rd 1 Hampshire Place, Greenwich East (Christchurch).
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Is that Greenwich itself, or Greenwich the registration district for places born (as given on census)?
Transcribing the census, or at least giving the URL makes it far easier to follow, with a single click .
Also ensures that you don't miss information like occupation.
Pauline
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At 1871 & 1881 censuses say Christchurch Greenwich.
Cr
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Additional information that may help is that on his brother, Edward's military record (which I've just found) from 1892-1904 it records his parent's John & Harriet living at 18 Crossfield Lane, Deptford, Kent; elder brother John Canada. Problem is that the military record doesn't show the exact date for this information?
MIUK1914A_086796-01624
Cr
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So, if John has gone to Canada, maybe that's why there is no sign of him in the UK after his marriage.
Pauline
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Indeed that might be the case but I can't find any records of him in Canada?
Cr
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Have you investigated this one ?
1891 Canadian Census Sarnia Town, Lambton West, Ontario.
https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?app=Census1891&op=img&id=30953_148150-00236
Sandra
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Or looked at this marriage ?
John W. Shean - Marriage 4 Jul 1892 Sarnia, Ontario, Canada
Father John S. Shean - Mother Harriett Beady (looks like Beasley on the Our Lady Of Mercy Marriage)
Spouse - Elisabeth Bohannon.
Ontario Marriages say John was 26 years old from London England and Elisabeth 40 born Malta.
Sandra
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1901 Sarnia Lambton. (name changed but also mis-trancribed)
John Sheahan 34 born Eng. Imm 1886. 14 June 1866. (Someone has put in a name alternative John Patrick Sheenan but the image does not say that)
Elizabeth Sheahan 49 born Malta. 11 January 1852
Joseph Sheahan 2 born Ont 17 Dec 1898
https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1901/Pages/about-census.aspx
Sandra
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1911 Canadian Census 269 Cobden Sarnia Lambton
John Sheehan 44 born Eng June 1866. GT Ry.
Elizabeth Sheehan 58 born Malta January 1852.
https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1911/Pages/1911.aspx
Sandra
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Joseph Kenneth Edward Sheehan - died 5 February 1907 Sarnia, Lambton County, Ontario.
Our Lady of Mercy Roman Catholic Cemetery, Lambton County, Ontario.
http://geneofun.on.ca/names/photo/244254
Sandra
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John P SHEEHAN
1866-1933
Our Lady of Mercy Roman Catholic Cemetery, Lambton County, Ontario.
http://geneofun.on.ca/names/photo/244251
John Patrick Sheenan - 1867 - aged 66 years - 269 Cobden Street Sarnia Ontario
Death Date 3 Feb 1933 Lambton, Ontario, Canada
Father John Sheenan - Mother Harriett Bealley (should be Beasley) Informant Mrs J P Sheehan.
Retired Imperial Oil Employee.
Sandra
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Canadian Attestation Papers now show different birth date, country of birth and use "Patrick" again as the middle name. (not the same as on the Ontario marriage register)
https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=225065
digital file - https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?op=pdf&app=CEF&id=B8836-S014
Sandra
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1921 269 Cobden Sarnia Ontario.
John P Sheehan 53 Head. Boiler Maker. Imm 1890
Elizabeth Sheehan 68 Wife
https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1921/Pages/search.aspx
Sandra
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Hello Sandra, your research once again is excellent and most appealing. I did look at the 1st one on Anc originally but ruled it out as there was not enough detail given. It would appear that he emigrated as you say and married there.
I wonder what happened to his 1st wife Gertrude and the children?
Cr
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Regarding John's gravestone in 1933, Sandra, where did you obtain his details?
Looks like the Military attestation was mightily wrong!
Cr
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I wonder what happened to his 1st wife Gertrude and the children?
Nothing other than it being a namesake to prove it was your man, is there?
Pauline
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Well done again to Sandra for the amazing finds.
On Gertrude, a faint possibility in Lewisham in 1901? :-\
William Couchman Head 30 Coach Painter, born Sevenoaks Kent
Gertrude Couchman Wife 32 Millwall London
Ellen Couchman Daur 4 Blackheath London
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9Z2-HHJ
Ellen's place of birth isn't quite right though.
Mention them as I can't see anything else at the moment. Nor can I see a marriage for those two, or an obvious birth for Ellen.
A death of a Gertrude Couchman in Lewisham, March qtr 1902, age 33.
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It is true that without the marriage certificate of John Henry Sheen and Gertrude Carter we can't be sure who either of them are! They are certainly a mystery in any case.
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I guess jonw65 I'll have to get the marriage certificate for John & Gertrude to see if it will enlighten us.
Cr
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Regarding John's gravestone in 1933, Sandra, where did you obtain his details?
Looks like the Military attestation was mightily wrong!
Cr
John P SHEEHAN
1866-1933
Our Lady of Mercy Roman Catholic Cemetery, Lambton County, Ontario.
http://geneofun.on.ca/names/photo/244251
John Patrick Sheenan - 1867 - aged 66 years - 269 Cobden Street Sarnia Ontario
Death Date 3 Feb 1933 Lambton, Ontario, Canada
Father John Sheenan - Mother Harriett Bealley (should be Beasley) Informant Mrs J P Sheehan.
Retired Imperial Oil Employee.
Sandra
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Yes, Sandra, I can see the gravestone photo but not the details about him?
I've ordered the marriage cert for John and Gertrude.
Cr
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You see what I see John.
Elizabeth Sheehan - Elizabeth Bohanan - 11 January 1853 (as far as we know) Island of Malta.
Died 26 May 1945 - aged 92 years - Place of death : - London House of Providence, Richmond Street. Middlesex. Ontario. Residence 269 Cobden Street, Sarnia.
Cause of death - Chronic nephritis due to atherosclerosis.
Father Patrick Bohanan - Certificate Number 040008
Informant Sister M Regis. House of Providence. London. Ontario. (relationship to deceased : none)
Sandra
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Actually, Sandra I couldn't find Elizabeth's death so didn't see what you saw? Thank you anyway for finding her death.
Cr
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Yes, Sandra, I can see the gravestone photo but not the details about him?
I've ordered the marriage cert for John and Gertrude.
Cr
"You see what I see" is in reply to this text John.
Sandra
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I guess jonw65 I'll have to get the marriage certificate for John & Gertrude to see if it will enlighten us.
Cr
Almost certainly the Gertrude from the Sheen family unit given the whole household in 1901.
Pauline
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Again will have to wait and see what Gertrude's actual mmn was.
Cr
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I've received the marriage cert and the mystery remains, they married 3/10/1887 at St Stephen's church, Lewisham, as John Henry Sheen and Gertrude Carter both aged 21 and single, John was a paper hanger and Gertrude a domestic servant.
John lived at 12 Claremont Terrace and Gertrude at 62 Cressingham Road.
Now the mystery, John's father was recorded as John Henry Sheen, paper hanger, and Gertrude's father as John Carter, a Mariner.
Seems to me that I've got the wrong John Henry Sheen as my one was the son of John Sheen a labourer and RC?
Presumably, the 2 children belong to another J H Sheen?
Cr
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There is a marriage in 1900 in Deptford of Alfred William Sheen, 21, father John Henry Sheen (deceased), Decorator. Spouse Louisa Elizabeth Jackson, father John William Jackson, Bricklayer.
They might be in Deptford in 1901, in the same house as her parents.
piece 524 folio 82 page 18
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X98K-YLG
Birth?
March 1878 Greenwich 1d 979
Sheen, Alfred William
Need to find him in the new index!
In 1881 in Lewisham there is
Henry Sheen 35 Paperhanger
Elinor Sheen 36
children including
Henry Sheen 15
Alfred Sheen 4
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q277-ZRGX
All born Greenwich except youngest Florence, 1, born Lewisham (mother Saweard)
SHEEN, HENRY JOHN
Mother's Maiden Surname: SAWEARD
GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 754
Henry junior seems to have joined the Army Service Corps in August 1889.
Age 21, Painter, born Greenwich.
But says he is not married, next of kin are parents Henry and Ellen.
The record goes up to 1892, then says Recalled to Army Service, but I can't read any more.
Is in the WO363 burnt records for WW1, but also in WO97 (don't have access, presumably much the same?)
Meanwhile, the rest of family in Lewisham in 1891, as Sheer.
Head of family Henry is a House Decorator
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q32F-CT2
Could HJ have married as JH and run away from Gertrude not long after?
Better suggestions welcome!
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Presumably, the 2 children belong to another J H Sheen?
It seems so, but there was quite a gap between the two.
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I'm of the opinion that John H who married Gertrude is not my relation as I originally thought especially as the certificate shows his father as John H whereas mine's father was just John an RC labourer. The one that went to Canada and married in an RC church seems much more likely.
Cr
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Hi
Yes, and he was mentioned in Edward's army record as being in Canada.
Sorry about that, it's a pity the Sheen-Carter marriage wasn't online, and you had to order it.
It was quite a mystery though, is it possible the chap could turn out to be a more distant relative?
John
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Yes, it is a pity but at least with your help, we found my man in Canada doing the right thing. The problem with the surname Sheen is that it has other derivations and may have originally been Sheehan as this name I've found in Irish records for his grandfather's siblings.
Cr