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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Carl Chorley on Monday 14 June 21 17:53 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I am trying to find my Grandfather on my Mothers side.
I doubt he will still be living now though but I can't find anything out there.
My Mum was the result of an affair during WW2.
My Grandmother refused to allow my Mum to go live with him and saw to it that she never had contact with him. The reasoning was that he was already married and refused to divorce his wife and marry my Grandmother.
My extended family my mums aunts refused to give us any information.
Sadly all have passed away now, leaving my mum who's in her 70's without any clue to her paternal lineage. She has felt alone all her life and rejected by her mother being Granny reared.
So I'm looking for a Charles Duff, married to a lady named Jean? His occupation apparently was a bookies runner and the area he was known to of come from was Bermondsey.
The only record we know exists is from the Courts as he was charged with the crime of bastardy (fathering a child out of wedlock) and a support order granted. The local Courts refused to supply a copy of any order or information because they deemed it wasn't in the public interest.
I appreciate any help with this.
Kind Regards
Carl
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Could You by any chance, name the vicinity, where Your Grandmother was living at the time of the liaison, with Charles Duff.
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Welcome to Rootschat Carl :D
I checked to see if there were any marriages for a Charles Duff to a Jean but none came up between 1890 and 1945. Whoever his wife was it was not Jean unless that was her second name.
As Sandblown has asked, where was your grandmother living at the time she met Charles? Where was your mother born?
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Thank you for your replies.
Charles met my grand mother when he was evacuated from Dunkirk.
legend has it that he spent quite a lot of time in the water awaiting rescue and this caused health problems along with his hair turning white from shock.
So he was sent to Markeaton Army Camp in Derby,East Midlands. He was sent to work in the cook house.
He was quite unable to work properly in the cookhouse and required assistance as he had very little grip. Aso the Camp Dr gave him regular injections in his feet and hands, something to do with use of gold needles? Any way I digress, once my Grandmothers pregnancy was revealed the Army called in her parents. Whom apparently said they would sort the mess out?
So we know for sure he was in Derby in March of 1944.
After that I'm assuming he would of been medically discharged. I can't imagine he would of been able to do much after. Or maybe the Army moved him on elsewhere?
My Grandma would of been between 20-21 years old. It was said he was slightly Older.
My Grandmother was born in 1923..
So I'm not sure how much older Charles was.
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Welcome to Rootschat Carl :D
I checked to see if there were any marriages for a Charles Duff to a Jean but none came up between 1890 and 1945. Whoever his wife was it was not Jean unless that was her second name.
As Sandblown has asked, where was your grandmother living at the time she met Charles? Where was your mother born?
My Mother was born in Derby.
That's the issue I'm finding was his name really Charles? Mum seems to think he went by the name of Charlie? Charley?
Apparently his wife Jean was disabled and couldn't have children.. Hence the offer to take my mum on?
That's the trouble with legend and not having open honesty from the family.
Thank you for taking the time in looking for me.
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Could You by any chance, name the vicinity, where Your Grandmother was living at the time of the liaison, with Charles Duff.
Thank you for replying.
Charles was in Derby at the time of the liaison.
My Grandmother was Derby Born.
I appreciate your time in helping.
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Ok well if we assume that he was born between 1918 and 1923 only two births appear in that time frame:-
DUFF, CHARLES LINDSEY LINDSEY
GRO Reference: 1920 J Quarter in ST. MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 1137
DUFF, CHARLES ROBERT DUDDY
GRO Reference: 1920 S Quarter in EASTBOURNE Volume 02B Page 134
Taking the births back to 1910 gives one birth in the London area:-
DUFF, CHARLES JOSEPH ROYSTON
GRO Reference: 1911 J Quarter in SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 129
This is of course making the assumption that Charles was born in the London area somewhere.
The other two in the expanded time frame are Stamford and Battle.
DUFF, CHARLES JAMES GARRATT
GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in STAMFORD Volume 07A Page 314
DUFF, CHARLES BRIAN DORNTON WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1916 J Quarter in BATTLE Volume 02B Page 76
Your biggest problem is that you don't have enough information about Charles to pin him down accurately.
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It's also probable that as He was at the Dunkirk Evacuation, He could have been either an Army Regular or Territorial in 1939, and might not appear on the 1939 Register, that was compiled primarily for the issue of Wartime Identity and Ration Cards.
I'm surprised You cannot obtain the Court Support Order, as it might be worthwhile Your Mother reapplying under the latest 'Freedom Of Information' Act. The services of a Solicitor might be worth considering. I believe obtaining sight of the Court Support Order, maybe the only way forward, with so little information, You have, on Your Mother's Father.
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the only Duff family I can find in Bermondsey in 1911 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWPP-MLS
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Hmmm!
Ok I persuaded my mum to do a Ancestry DNA test some Months ago and was disappointed that no results came through.
I thought it had got lost in the post, however a few said it could take up to 4 months for any result.
However DNA results arrived but we were not aware.
So she has 2 matches of 5% and 6%.
The 6% match turned out to be her mums sisters Grandson. He literally lives around the corner from me. He is hoping to meet up with my mum to help him with that side of the family for his research, so that's great she can help him at least.
The 5% match I could only partially see their tree, however it does contain the family names of Duff.
How these relate to Mum I'm not sure. The person whom she is connected with doesn't appear to be active to ask.
They have the following Duffs
Gideon Duff 1875 -1944
Alice Millicent Duff 1907-1966
Both seem to hale from Edmonton.
Alice dying in Victoria, Australia.
So I'm wondering how/if they are related to Grandad Duff and of course my mum.
So I really need someone who has those in a family tree in the vague hope of gleaning something useful.
Thank you all again for your patience with me.
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here is Gideon - with father - also Gideon - the dad was born Scotland
https://www.rootspoint.com/record/1881-UK-Census/Gideon-Duff-1875-London-St-Mary-Islington/5ee24681-ea78-475c-95ef-df0cbeeadb8c/
looks like Gideon b 1875 was born in 49 Alsen Road , St Mary's ,Islington ,London
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Gideon DUFF was the father of Alice Millicent.
She married Roy James Stanton FYFFE and died in Victoria in 1966.
Sue
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Alice Millicent had a brother called Charles:-
DUFF, CHARLES GEORGE BEAUMONT
GRO Reference: 1904 M Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 436
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In 1911 Gideon Duff ( transcribed on FindMyPast as Gibson) is in Hornsey Middlesex with his family- including a son- Charles George, born 1905 in Hornsey....and Alice Millicent born 1908 Marylebone.
djm297
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brilliant - but it puts Carls grandmother as 21 and Charles at 39 during their liason ...old enough to be her dad - not slightly older as Carl was told - MAYBE Carls g grandmothers resentment of Charles was because of his age - probably closer to the g grandmothers age than her daughters ??
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When Gideon Duff senior enlisted, he listed his children on his records.
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Looks as though Charles married a Violet Howes
Marriages Sep 1928
Duff Charles G Howes Edmonton 3a 1584
HOWES Violet M DUFF Edmonton 3a 1584
This couple are on the 1939, no children with them and his occupation doesn't bear any relation to a bookies runner. He could have had that as a side occupation.
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Continuing with the above Charles George Duff-
Married 5 Aug.1928 at Hornsey Parish Church to Violet Maud Howes (both age 25). Charles is bachelor, bakers roundsman, address- 13 Boynton? Road, father Gideon Duff a mason.
From other sources Charles George Duff was born 1 Jan.1904. His father's WWI record lists 7 children (including Charles George & Alice). Charles George Duff died 17 Jan.1963 according to probate book-
1963. DUFF Charles George of 16? The Campsbourne Hornsey London H.8 died 17 January 1963 at Whittington Hospital Highgate Wing London N.19 Administration London 8 March to Violet Maud Duff widow. Effects £421 12s.
Note: Administration means there was no Will involved.
Added- Violet Maud Duff born 28 Dec.1902 death registered July 1993 Haringey.
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Could Charles have been a Charlie?
DUFF, CHARLIE DELACO
GRO Reference: 1908 J Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 356
I haven't checked him out elsewhere yet.
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‘So I'm looking for a Charles Duff, married to a lady named Jean? ‘
Gideon and Emily Duff had a daughter Jean, born 1920 - sister to Charles G.
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Ah, so perhaps that information about Jean was picked up as being his wife rather than his sister.
So could the Charles G marrying Violet Howes be the correct one?
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Could Charles have been a Charlie?
DUFF, CHARLIE DELACO
GRO Reference: 1908 J Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 356
I haven't checked him out elsewhere yet.
I live in West Derby registration area - let me have a look :)
ADDED
Parents were Charles Duff and Christine Delaco ( father Charles Delaco )who married in Liverpool 8th september 1907
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A baker's roundsman may well have had the opportunity to double as bookie's runner during the working day :P
Sue
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Ah, so perhaps that information about Jean was picked up as being his wife rather than his sister.
So could the Charles G marrying Violet Howes be the correct one?
It’s possible. Jean did not marry until later and as a much younger sibling was a similar age to Carl’s grandmother.
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A baker's roundsman may well have had the opportunity to double as bookie's runner during the working day :P
Sue
Right initials :)
I think a bookie’s runner was illegal so that might be just knowledge to those people - not mentioned in court perhaps.
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Given Charles George Duff's age of 36 by May 1940 (assuming 1904 Birth Year) is it feasible He would have been with the BEF, on the Front Line, in France by that time, and later evacuated from Dunkirk ?
ADD: The BEF started moving to France from the 4th September 1939, hence why most Regular Army and Territorials do not appear on the published to view, 1939 Register.
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I don't know what a BEF is ;D
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It seems like we are all leaning towards Charles George Duff as being the right man. Trouble is is actually proving it.
How about seeing if you can get the Court Support Order as suggested by Sandblown? The application may need to be done via your mother rather than yourself. Try, you have nothing to lose and if you get it, great :D
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I don't know what a BEF is ;D
British Expeditionary Force :)
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I don't know what a BEF is ;D
British Expeditionary Force :)
Oh! Of course. What a dill ::)
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Apparently his wife Jean was disabled and couldn't have children.. Hence the offer to take my mum on?
As already mentioned by Heywood, Charles George Duff had a younger sister called Jean.
In 1939 his sister Jean was noted as incapacitated.
I agree there may have been some confusion in Carl's family over Jean's relationship to Charles.
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With everything that has been found so far, a couple of further ideas to consider for research is to request a copy of Charles George's service papers from WW2 www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records
Confirmed here by others is CG's birth date and death details which all help in finding someone's service records.
The cost is £30 and will likely take months to get, but maybe worth considering to see what his service history was and compare with the info you have been given?
Also, from names found, there looks to be a quite a few family trees on Ancestry for this family group. Don't know if you have a subs to a/try. If so, you could consider messaging tree owners to check whether any have done any DNA research to let you compare to your mum's? You mention that there is already a possible DNA connection with Alice, daughter of Gideon Duff from the family contact you have found. There are others on a/try connected to the other siblings for Charles.
Monica
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Do you have to be related though to obtain Army records?
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Not necessarily:-
You can apply for a copy of someone else’s service records if any of the following apply:
you’re their immediate next of kin, for example their spouse or parent
you’ve got consent from their immediate next of kin
you have a general research interest - you’ll only have access to limited information, unless they died more than 25 years ago
You need to know the person’s full name, date of birth and service number.
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Thanks :)
I only knew the first two.
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What an interesting thread!
Just a further comment, you do not need a service number to obtain military records. I got my Great Grandfathers a couple of years ago and did not have that information. I just provided his full name, date of birth and death certificate.
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You are right about the death cert, Meelystar so thank you for making that point.
They look for confirmation via a death cert to ensure the person you are enquiring about has indeed passed. If they died less that 25 years ago, they limit the amount of details you get (I don't know what the criteria is for this). For deaths more than 25 years ago, you will receive the full records that they hold.
The fee of £30 is an admin fee, payable whether they are successful or not in finding the correct records.
Monica
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This is Charles's death record
Deaths Mar 1963
DUFF CHARLES G 59 ST.PANCRAS 5D 607
Gives a birth year of 1904.
Over 50 years ago so the full records should be sent. Unfortunately the GRO doesn't go up to 1963 for a pdf, so the full amount of £11 will have to be paid for the death certificate.
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Going back to the mention of 'bookie's runner", is this a hint of a tendency to gambling being in the family? ;D
Sorry I can't see more of the item.
Sue
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The full article says:-
GAMBLING - Albert Woods of Boyton Road, Hornsey and Herbert Jennings, Gideon Duff and Thomas Stebbings of Brook Road, Hornsey, were summoned for gambling with cards and money in Therniston? Road, and were fined 2s 6d each.
Not sure if Therniston is correct but that is what it looks like in the report.
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Just a thought, if Charles was so badly injured in the evacuation from Dunkirk which took place in 1940 wouldn’t he have been discharged by 1944?
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Hi Carl, you approached me about your family via Harringay Online. Not sure if you got my emails. I'd meant to just have a quick look at your family and ended up spending an hour or so building a better picture. This will answer a few of your questions. I've emailed you but not heard back and tried to attached the research here, but the system says its too big and every time I reduce the file size, they make the maximum smaller! So I gave up.
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hughflouch
every time I reduce the file size, they make the maximum smaller!
The image can be upto 500kb, we do not change the size.
Regards
Sarah
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My apologies that I haven't responded sooner.
Work and trying to put this into a structured form so I can explain to my Mum, what you amazing people have found for her and I.
Taking the advice given I have applied for Charles Death cert and will be applying for his war records too.
I have messaged the DNA connection via Ancestry and await a response. Michelle Bristow appears to be cousin to Mum. Via Alice Millicent her mother I think. I have no idea if Michelle is in Australia or the U.K. Edit: had the message bounced back from Ancestry saying "This User isn't accepting Messages". Mum doesn't know this as its just literally come in as I'm typing and checking What to do now?
I have put together the information from here and from Hugh at HOL as of yesterday and today.
Spent this morning at Mums, we had tears for about 15 mins. Some of joy because she knows that she had family, but immense sadness that she din't get to meet them.
I am blown away by everyone's kindness and taking time to help me out.
My faith in humanity is once restored.
I want to try and persuade Mum to come to London and just see the area her family were from.
Sadly my Mums started this search for her Dad back in the 90's. Writing to the Salvation Army whom wouldn't help because her parents were not married and she just isn't computer literate, I think she had all but given up.
May I buy any of you a drink?
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Amazing how this thread has progressed. Hope you get all the full confirmation you both deserve from the next set of papers and research ;)
If I can suggest, re the offer of a drink (as nice an offer as that is 8)), use the money to buy her a bunch of flowers and tell her the RC bunch wish her all the best!
Monica