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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Revolution on Tuesday 15 June 21 11:33 BST (UK)
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Hi
On 23 Feb 1854 in Bishop-Wearmouth, Durham Luke Gibson married Ann Miller. Anns father is listed as Robert Miller and Lukes father as George Gibson.
I have Ann in the 1861,71,81 and 91 censuses. Ann says shes from Sunderland, Durham
I cant definitely work out which is the correct Ann in the 1841 census to find her mother. Ive tentatively put in her parents as Robert Miller and Mary Scott to see if the records support that. In the 1851 census Robert and Mary have multiple children living with them but no Ann although they married in 1827 at St Nicholas, Newcastle Upon Tyne, Northumberland, England.
There is an Ann Miller in the 1841 census age 10 living with Robert Miller and Mary. Robert was a mason. In the later censuses he was also a mason.
I wondered if Ann was sent off to work in the 1851 census assuming the 1841 census info is correct. IN 1851 there is an Ann Miller, Age: 18, Estimated Birth Year: 1833, Relation: Servant
Gender: Female, Where born: Gateshead, Durham, England, Civil parish: Gateshead
Ecclesiastical parish: St John.
Ive tentatively put Marys parents as William Scott and Ann Richardson who married in 1800 although there are multiple baptisms before this date or two couples with the same names. William and Ann has a child named Thomasin. Robert Miller and Mary Scott had a child named Thomasan. I dont know if thats a good link or not
As far as the right Robert Miller theres multiple to choose from
Birth
8 Oct 1809
Baptism
25 Mar 1810 Sunderland,Durham,England
Parents David Miller and Ann Wilson
Birth
5 May 1807
Baptism
22 Mar 1808 Newcastle Upon Tyne, Northumberland, England
Parents Jonathan Miller and Mary Miller
Birth
20 Jun 1806
Baptism
31 Aug 1806 South Shields,Durham,England
Parents Joseph Miller and Ann Jewitt
Birth
27 Jun 1805
Baptism
16 Sep 1806 Sunderland,Durham,England
Parents Robert Miller and Ann Beadland
Any help would be appreciated!
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Hi
Do you have the actual Marriage cert of Luke and Ann, to be able to see what Robert Miller's occupation was, who the witness were, and what address she gave?
I see Ann's age in the Census after her marriage are pretty consistent, b abt 1831.
At the age of 20 in 1851 therefore, rather than being "sent off" to work, it would more likely to be as a matter of course, that she was in Service somewhere.
Cheers,
AMBLY
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When did Robert Miller die?
There is this one
March 1885 Sunderland 10a 378
Miller, Robert
age 77
Probate for him, a will.
Late of Gibson's Alms-houses Bishopwearmouth, died 19 Feb 1885
Proved at Durham by Robert Gibson of 14 Havelock-terrace Gateshead, Merchant's Clerk, the Grandson, one of the Executors.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=miller&yearOfDeath=1885&page=12#calendar
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1871 census has Robert Gibson, 16, Merchants Clerk, son of Luke and Ann
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZJ-NPT
GIBSON, ROBERT
Mother's Maiden Surname: MILLER
GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in SUNDERLAND Volume 10A Page 342
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Burial at Bishopwearmouth Cemetery, 22 Feb 1885
Robert Miller, Mason, age 77. Death occurred Alms Houses.
Gives grave reference.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-494G-C?
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though they married in 1827 at St Nicholas, Newcastle Upon Tyne, Northumberland
BT on FamilySearch. Sadly the witnesses don't seem to be helpful.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6SW3-F4T
As far as the right Robert Miller theres multiple to choose from
Another candidate for the list (sorry!)
Robert Millar, baptized 28 July 1807 at Sunderland.
Born 26 Aug 1806
Parents William and Elizabeth (nee Wilson)
BT here (Robt)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DCW9-HTZ
William seems to have been a mariner and a daughter Elizabeth was buried same day, age 3
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DCW9-4BY
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FindMyPast baptisms (transcripts only)
Baptismal Place - St Michael and All Angels, Bishopwearmouth, Durham
Parents - Robert Miller, a mason, and Mary
William, 1829, Ann 1830, Elizabeth 1833, Mary Jane 1835, Isabel 1837, Thomasine 1839, William 1840
On the 1841 Census both Robert and Mary were "born in County" ie. Durham and confirmed in the '51 Census.
So, why in 1827 would they have crossed over to Northumberland to marry?
As already said, you need Robert Miller's occupation on Ann's 1854 marriage cert (if present, of course).
If
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Ive tentatively put Marys parents as William Scott and Ann Richardson who married in 1800 although there are multiple baptisms before this date or two couples with the same names. William and Ann has a child named Thomasin. Robert Miller and Mary Scott had a child named Thomasan. I dont know if thats a good link or not
In the Miller household in 1841 is Eliza Collins, 8, Not Born County
Could this be her? :-\
Baptism, 7 Dec 1832, St Mary, Hull, Yorkshire
Eliza Collins
Parents William + Thomasin
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR79-P7H
Marriage at Bishopwearmouth, 11 April 1821
William Collins + Thomasin(e) Scott
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3SW-S95Q-3
Marriage was by licence.
Allegation and bond on FamilySearch, two images
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6QCQ-F8P
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So, why in 1827 would they have crossed over to Northumberland to marry?
Loads of people in the north east married in Newcastle.
As already said, you need Robert Miller's occupation on Ann's 1854 marriage cert (if present, of course)
Well, yes. But have you read Replies #2, #3, and #4.
The will of Robert Miller proved in 1885 will only cost £1.50. Could be worth it!
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Proved at Durham by Robert Gibson of 14 Havelock-terrace Gateshead, Merchant's Clerk, the Grandson, one of the Executors.
Don't think he is there in a census.
1885-6 Gateshead electors
Robert Gibson at 14 Havelock Terrace
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3J3-WQ45
A couple of family announcements in the Sunderland Daily Echo
Free text is not always great for us, summarising
10 Sep 1885 edition, Birth of a son to the wife of Mr. Gibson
5 July 1886, Death on the 3rd of John Ranson, youngest son of Robert and Isabella Gibson.
Birth reg
GIBSON, JOHN RANSON
Mother's Maiden Surname: TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 846
Buried on the 6th July, at Gateshead. Age 10 months. Death occurred at 14 Havelock Terrace.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-L9LJ-V
Marriage 19 Feb 1876, Bishopwearmouth
Robert Gibson, 21, father Luke Gibson
+
Isabella Taylor, 21, father John Taylor
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXGL-CM4
Might be them in the 1881 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q271-F1H9
Hopefully that helps to confirm things? Thoughts welcome.
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GRO
Thomasine Miller, registered March Qtr 1839, Sunderland Union, vol 24 page 234 - mother's maiden name Scott
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So, why in 1827 would they have crossed over to Northumberland to marry?
Loads of people in the north east married in Newcastle.
As already said, you need Robert Miller's occupation on Ann's 1854 marriage cert (if present, of course)
Well, yes. But have you read Replies #2, #3, and #4.
The will of Robert Miller proved in 1885 will only cost £1.50. Could be worth it!
They baptised 7 children in St Michael's and All Angels beginning with William, 14 June 1829 (abode Queen Street). Marriages were taking place in the church in 1827 - Durham record office index confirms. Just puzzled why they chose Newcastle.
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Hi
I can't explain why they married in Newcastle, rather than Sunderland. Perhaps one (or both!) of them was working there at the time? We may never know!
It does look like the right marriage though.
Birth
8 Oct 1809
Baptism
25 Mar 1810 Sunderland,Durham,England
Parents David Miller and Ann Wilson
You can eliminate that one.
UK and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850-1927, has a Robert Miller born Sunderland, 8 Oct 1809.
Master's Certificate, 4 Feb 1851.
Also check Britain, Merchant Seamen, 1835-1857, on another website, in case another one or two of the potential Roberts went to sea. You may get a birth date to help.
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Yes - the 1827 marriage looks good for the '41 Census family, given the 1839 Thomasine birth registration. But yet to link the Ann in the '41 Census with the Ann that married in '54?
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Hi
My hope is that Ann who married to Luke Gibson in 1854 had a son Robert in 1855, and said son was a Merchants Clerk, and was the executor (and grandson!) of the Robert Miller who died in 1885. That Robert Miller was a mason, according to the Bishopwearmouth burial register.
So that would provide a link back to the Ann in the 1841 census, and the 1830 baptism.
For further proof, or otherwise, the marriage certificate will be required, as you and Ambly have said.
If the OP wants to get the will of Robert died 1885, it might also be useful.
John
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Hi
Many thanks for looking at this for me!
Ive just ordered the Will. I thought it was an auto download but Ill get an email about it when its ready
Is the 1854 marriage online to order? I had a look at Durham records online but its not listed on that site.
Luke and Ann did have a son Robert. I have that birth certificate. Luke was a Butcher master. Robert born on 2 Jan 1855 at 6 Middle Street, Bishop-Wearmouth
Robert married Isabella Taylor. Robert occupation was Coal Export Clerk
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Hi
Should you wish, you can order the marriage certificate from the GRO website. You need to be registered. Sadly no pdfs for marriages, so it would cost £11.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
To tidy up, death of Robert's wife.
March 1892 Sunderland 10a 406
Miller, Mary
age 84
I now realise I can see images of the Sunderland Daily Echo (that's a surprise!)
8 March 1892
MILLER.—On the 8th inst., at 4 South-street, aged 84 years, Mary, relict of the late Robert Miller. Interment on Friday.
Quick work getting that announcement in!
Mary buried at Bishopwearmouth, 11 March 1892. Widow of Robert Miller, Mason. Looks like in same grave.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-BGNX
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One in there for Robert as well!
20 Feb 1885
DEATH.
MILLER.—On the 19th inst., at Gibson Houses, Bishopwearmouth, Robert Miller, builder, aged 77 years. Interment at Sunday at half-past 2. Friends please accept this intimation.
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Thank you for these newspaper stories
Would the marriages be here? I didnt know marriages were on the GRO - just births and deaths
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index?owc=9K5M-GP8%3A13618101%3Fcc%3D1309819
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Hi
Marriage of Luke and Ann was at St Michael, Bishopwearmouth, 23 Feb 1854
A partial transcription on FamilySearch, from the parish register, but not including occupations, residences, witnesses
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXG2-3WP
There are BTs for Bishopwearmouth, but, despite what it says, I don't think marriages are included that late
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/4128299
You could perhaps wait for the will of Robert Miller, see what that says. We know his grandson was an executor. Never can tell with wills. Mary was still alive, he may just leave everything to her and not name all his children, or it may name every one of them!
Hopefully it will confirm that Ann, wife of Luke Gibson, was his daughter. If not, you may want to see what the marriage certificate says about her father.
John
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Got it today!
Ann, widow of Luke Gibson named in the Will
Also Mary Miller (wife), sons named William and Robert Miller, Mary Jane Miller, Isabella, wife of George Robson and granddaughters Ada Mary and Sarah Robson.
The letter says the granddaughters mother would have been entitled if still living.
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Hi
That is really excellent news. Thanks for telling us.
So you have confirmed that Ann was the daughter of Robert the mason (as you suspected!)
That leaves you still with the problem of Robert's parents. Which doesn't look an easy one.
John
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Wrong button, again! Sorry.
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Thanks for the update.
Good to see it confirmed - it always looked promising.
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Thank you all again for your help with this.
Neither Robert or his wifes parents are more straightforward. Huge amounts of conflicting info on ancestry with a mishmash of records from different families.
From looking at the censuses for Robert giving his birth date between 1807-1808. Born Sunderland. Mary Scotts birth ranging from 1808 to 1810 with most being 1808. Born Sunderland. Whether those are accurate or not is difficult to say. Ruling out the 1809 Robert Miller the closest birth date is the 1807 Robert Miller born to Jonathan Miller and Mary Crookshanks.
Are the marriages from this period the banns types with no witnesses?
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I downloaded the newspaper death records for Luke Gibson, his wife Ann plus Anns mother and father. Ive also purchased Anns Will plus the Will of Luke Gibsons father.
Great tip that one.
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Hi
All marriages from 1754 should have two witnesses. Sometimes there were more of course, occasionally I have seen entries with just one!
You may have to try and put together some trees for the various Roberts, and see if anything reveals itself. He (whichever one he was!) was born at the time they were using the Barrington style registers in Durham, and that will help in getting to know about the different families, as there is a lot of info in them.
FreeReg is a good place to start, and there are images of the BTs on FamilySearch.
John
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Hi John
Ill start putting together the family trees for each person.
I just got the Will of George Gibson 1807-1895 who married Margaret Bell. It names Luke Gibson (deceased) (Ann Millers husband) and leaves Lukes children money. A later amendment to his Will cuts out Lukes children altogether. Something happened there.
Also named Thomas Haswell Gibson, Fredrick Nicholas Lewis husband of Mary Ann Gibson, Jacob Gibson, daughter Alice Gibson who when the Will was written was a spinster but who later married aged 58 to Elias Place, son of William Place. Elias was a widower. George Gibson (dec).
Thomas Haswell Gibson died before his father but the Will isnt clear whether his father says hes one of his dead sons - well at least not clear to me. Thomas died in Waterbury, Connecticut, USA
I have Georges parents as Haswell Gibson and Alice Heslop but thats as far as Ive been able to go.
Haswell is such an unusual name.
Anyhow - back to the Millers!