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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: brooksburns on Wednesday 16 June 21 16:25 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for this John BURN(S) and his wife Ann CLARK.
It seems all their children were born in/around Kyloe, so perhaps they stayed there for the rest of their lives.
Anecdotally, either John or Ann had a grandfather who lived to 106 - no more detail known.
son's BAPTISM
William BURNS
1811
Warenford, Northumberland
presbyterian
father: John B.
(anecdotally born 30 Apr 1811, Kyloe)
dau's BAPTISM
Jane Burns
born 27 Jul 1816, baptised 4 Aug 1816
Warenford, Northumberland
presbyterian
parents: John BURNS, Ann CLARK
(anecdotally born 27 July 1816, Twizell House - birthplace Twizell also appears in censuses)
son's DEATH CERT
William BURNS d 14 Jan 1901, Chirnside, age 89
father John BURNS, shepherd (deceased)
mother Ann BURNS m.s. CLARK (deceased)
tentative possible MARRIAGE
Whittingham, Northumberland
03 May 1810
John BURN of Ellingham, shepherd
Ann CLARK of this parish
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Hi
I don’t think you will find a better match for the parents marriage🙂
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I don’t think you will find a better match for the parents marriage🙂
Looks good, doesn't it! 8)
Still holding out for their deaths/births too
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It looks as though John and Ann had a second son -- the Berwick Advertiser dated 4 August 1838 reports:
'DEATHS'
'On the 27th inst, at West Kyloe, near Lowick, John, second son of Mr John Burn, shepherd of that ?'
If you have access to Find My Past, this is the link to the notice :
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000717%2f18380804%2f032&stringtohighlight=john%20burn%20shepherd
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Thanks Allan, great find!! I had no idea about that but it's likely to be the same John.
Here are all the siblings I know of:
William b1811
Thomas b1814 (is not the one who died in 1838 - still going strong in 1891)
Jane b1816
Mary b1821
Margaret b1826
Years are approximate except William, Jane.
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The newspaper announcement of the death of John Burn junior says 'second son of Mr John Burn' which implies that John Burn senior was still alive in August 1838. With that in mind, I have looked at the civil death registrations for Berwick District which covers Kyloe. I have found the following:
December Quarter 1846; Volume 25; Page 16
June Quarter 1848; Volume 25; Page 7
March Quarter 1851; Volume 25; Page 9 This one can be discounted as I found a burial entry which shows that he was aged 26 when he died
I also looked at John BURNS and found the following (recorded in Northumberland District):
March Quarter 1858; Volume 10b; Page 207
June Quarter 1858; Volume 10b; Page 187
September Quarter 1860; Volume10b; Page 177
March Quarter 1872; Volume 10b; Page 263 This one can be discounted - shows age at death as 68 years
September 1874; Volume 10b; Page 279 This one can be discounted - shows age at death as 30 years
I have also looked at local newspapers for the above deaths but can not find anything.
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Thanks a lot for this!
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I have also looked at the civil deaths for Ann Burn(s) and have found the following:
Ann Burn
March Quarter 1854; Volume 10b; Page 179
March Quarter 1855; Volume 10b; Page 212
Ann BURNS
December 1849; Volume 25; Page 11
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Can I draw on others' experience please -
Having found the death index references, what's the best way forward? I can only think of looking at the certificates, which as far as I know is £7 a time and also wouldn't prove much unless the informant is distinctive - is that right?
(My home turf is Scottish records, which work a bit differently.)
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An English death certificate will show the following:
When and where died
Full name
Sex
Age
Occupation
Cause of Death
Informant name and address
When registered
Registrars Signature.
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An English death certificate will show the following:
When and where died
Full name
Sex
Age
Occupation
Cause of Death
Informant name and address
When registered
Registrars Signature.
Great, so I guess I'll identify John by his occupation, then use his address to find them both in the census(es), then use Ann's approx age to narrow down her death cert possibilities (and maybe her death cert has the same address as his).
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Good luck with your research. Please think about posting an update with your findings.
AllanUK
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Please think about posting an update with your findings.
Of course. Thanks
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After a LOT of census work (with more to go), I currently think the most likely John Burns death is 1848 Apr-Jun in Chatton (Glendale Union registration district).
That matches the following:
1841 census, John and Ann at New Hall, Chatton, Northumberland with children Margaret, Mary, Isabella.
1851 census, Ann widow at New Hall, Chatton, Northumberland with children Edward, Isabella.
In the process I seem to have found a lot more children. Here's the full set (work in progress - still quite tentative):
William b1811 Kyloe m Jane Alcorn 1836 d1901
John b1811-14 d1838 [as per news item mentioned in this thread]
Thomas b1814 Kyloe m Eliza
Jane b1816 Twizell m Thomas Heslop 1845 d1918
Martha b1817-19 Kyloe m Robert Percy d1874
Edward b1820 Kyloe m Ann Mole 1862
Mary b1821 Kyloe m Thomas Fulton, no children
Margaret b1826 Kyloe m William Bolton 1848
Isabella b1827-33 Kyloe m Thomas Crozier
The main thing I'm lacking is birth records for the above (except Jane). That would be very welcome confirmation. Can anyone help, please? The parents should be John Burns and Ann Clark.
And a key mystery is where most of the children were in 1841, if I'm right about the list above. William was probably the only one already married; Jane, Edward and Margaret were not, and the others probably weren't (based on children's ages in later censuses). And yet only Mary, Margaret and Isabella were with their parents.
Some additional findings which add evidence for family connections:
- Two of the Percy children (Martha's children) were with grandmother Ann in 1861 at Chillingham.
- Isabella's unmarried daughter Anne Crozier was with uncle Thomas Burns in 1881 in Duddo. (Not to be confused with Jane's married daughter Anne Crozier.)
- William's son John, and Thomas's son Ralph, and Margaret's daughter Mrs (Ann) Cook, all appear in newspaper articles about Jane Heslop in 1916-18.
Another thing that bothers me is that in the 1916-18 Jane Heslop newspaper articles, Margaret seems to be described as Jane's "youngest sister" - that put me off accepting the 1841 census which includes Isabella, and I'm still unsure about it.
My census work made a lot of use of Ancestry automatic suggestions (though I am critical of them).
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Another thing that bothers me is that in the 1916-18 Jane Heslop newspaper articles, Margaret seems to be described as Jane's "youngest sister" - that put me off accepting the 1841 census which includes Isabella, and I'm still unsure about it.
I always believed my Dad was an only child. I didn't start looking into family history till many years after his death and discovered he'd had 3 siblings all of whom had died quite soon after being born.I had no idea, no one ever mentioned this.
Isabella, bless her, was born and died too soon over 80 years prior to that newspaper article, its highly possible that whoever gave the info for the article wasn't aware of her brief life.
Boo
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Another thing that bothers me is that in the 1916-18 Jane Heslop newspaper articles, Margaret seems to be described as Jane's "youngest sister" - that put me off accepting the 1841 census which includes Isabella, and I'm still unsure about it.
Isabella, bless her, was born and died too soon over 80 years prior to that newspaper article, its highly possible that whoever gave the info for the article wasn't aware of her brief life.
Thanks for this, it's a useful point that they may simply have not known. Although the level of detail makes me feel quite confident in the report generally.
I'm not sure why you say over 80 years? It was less than 30, I think - certainly a large period of overlap with Jane and her nephews who visited at the time of the articles.
Edit: Ah, perhaps because I put "b1827-33" - that's actually a range of possible birthdates, rather than a lifespan! She married and had kids and her husband is shown as "married" in 1881 although she's not present (and nor is any other wife!)
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I'm not sure why you say over 80 years? It was less than 30, I think
I looked at your list which gave Isabella's dates as 1827-33 and the newspaper report (which hand in the air I haven't seen) in 1916-1918 named Margaret as Jane's youngest sister.
So 1833 to 1916 is more than 80 years, unless you meant that Isabella died in 1933?
EDIT:
just seen 'your' edit, sorry I misunderstood.
Boo
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just seen 'your' edit, sorry I misunderstood.
Not at all, I could have been clearer.
the newspaper report (which hand in the air I haven't seen)
My fault, I was too lazy to look it up yesterday. Here are the relevant quotes from Berwickshire News and General Advertiser 01 August 1916:
"Her sister, also of old age, died some time ago in Wooler. She was the widow of Mr Thos. Fulton"
(This must be Mary.)
"Mrs Heslop's youngest sister (Mrs Bolton, North Shields), is now 97."
(This must be Margaret. There's some clash on the age: the censuses have her as:
1841 15
1851 25
1861 33
1871 44
1881 54
1891 65
1901 74
1911 84
so she should be about 88-90 in 1916 - that's quite a leap from 97.)
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The children born pre 1821 would be likely working away from home in 1841.
Often even 12-15 year olds would be also depending on families circumstances.
Burial;
4 Apr 1848, Church of the Holy Cross, Chatton
JOHN Burn age 62 (c 1786)
Abode Fowberry New Hall***
(Source FreeREG)
*** where Ann is living in 1851 Census
Trish :)
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Closest Death Reg I can find for Ann is;
Deaths Dec 1870
Burn Ann age 85** Morpeth 10b 190
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Thanks Trish! Then there may even be a grave for me to check out at Church of the Holy Cross, Chatton.
I was surprised that a woman (Martha) would be away from home before marriage. Perhaps she was a house servant for another branch of the family (seen this a few times). Or being from a shepherding family I don't know if she would be working in her own right in shepherding/farming. It's tricky to find people in census when they're separate from their family, isn't it!
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The children born pre 1821 would be likely working away from home in 1841.
Often even 12-15 year olds would be also depending on families circumstances.
Burial;
4 Apr 1848, Church of the Holy Cross, Chatton
JOHN Burn age 62 (c 1786)
Abode Fowberry New Hall***
(Source FreeREG)
*** where Ann is living in 1851 Census
Trish :)
Image of that burial register entry from the BTs for Chatton is available on Family Search
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6Q3Q-89?
Boo
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Closest Death Reg I can find for Ann is;
Deaths Dec 1870
Burn Ann age 85** Morpeth 10b 190
Morpeth Herald 31 Dec 1870 page 8 col 5
Deaths
At Sheepwash, 25th inst., aged 85, Ann, widow of the late Mr John Burn, shepherd
Boo
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Morpeth Herald 31 Dec 1870 page 8 col 5
Deaths
At Sheepwash, 25th inst., aged 85, Ann, widow of the late Mr John Burn, shepherd
Boo
:o :D :D :D :D
Isabella (married to Thomas Crozier) was living in Sheepwash in the 1871 census.
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Thank you very much for this, guys
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Morpeth Herald 31 Dec 1870 page 8 col 5
Deaths
At Sheepwash, 25th inst., aged 85, Ann, widow of the late Mr John Burn, shepherd
Boo
:o :D :D :D :D
Isabella (married to Thomas Crozier) was living in Sheepwash in the 1871 census.
Free Reg has her burial at Bothal St Andrew 28 Dec 1870 (first name recorded as Anne) and that record also mentions that she was the widow of John Burn.
Boo
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As you said your usual research is for Scottish records, I thought I'd mention FreeBMD.
The death notice and burial record on FreeReg seem to tick all the boxes to be the right records so
I have added the details to her death registration entry on FreeBMD using the postem system.
Takes up to 24 hours to show as an envelope next to the entry in results when someone searches for the death.
This can 'really' help other researchers. If you get any certs etc for BMD in England and Wales perhaps you would consider adding the details as postems? I regularly add mine as I know how much I value these if I find one for someone I am looking for.
Its a personal choice, obviously, some people do and some don't - which is fine.
Boo
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As you said your usual research is for Scottish records, I thought I'd mention FreeBMD.
...
If you get any certs etc for BMD in England and Wales perhaps you would consider adding the details as postems?
Sure I will look into that. Still getting to grips with all the various tools.
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From that John Burns' death certificate:
d 1848 Apr 02 Fowberry New Hall
age 63 years
shepherd
irritable bladder 1 year, irritation of stomach & bowels 2 months, certified
informant Isabella Burns, Fowberry New Hall, present
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Thank you for telling us the details from the death certificate, it shows that we were pointing you on the correct path.
Allan
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And a key mystery is where most of the children were in 1841, if I'm right about the list above. William was probably the only one already married; Jane, Edward and Margaret were not, and the others probably weren't (based on children's ages in later censuses). And yet only Mary, Margaret and Isabella were with their parents.
The children born pre 1821 would be likely working away from home in 1841.
Trish :)
Here's my so-far on the locations of William and his siblings in the 1841 census:
William - at Upsettlington, with wife Jane and 3 children. Evidence of connection: William's obituary (Berwickshire News and General Advertiser 22 January 1901) says he "entered, in 1837, the service of the late... Lord Marjoribanks of Ladykirk, and continued on this estate until the end of his working days".
John - died 1838. Evidence: Newspaper item in this thread.
Thomas - at Licker, Lowick. With Matthewson family. Evidence of connection: Thomas and Eliza's eldest child born around 1843; a Thomas Burns married an Eliza Matthewson in 1843 at Glendale.
Jane - at Ravensdowne, Berwick. With Willoughby family. Evidence of connection: Jane Heslop's obituary (Newcastle Journal 1918 Mar 26) says "in her teens [she] entered the service of Mr Willoughby, solicitor, Berwick"; 1851 census shows same William Willoby (same name, age, location) as "attorney in law".
Martha - not found/confirmed. In 1851 census, married to Robert Percy, in Easington, Durham, oldest child age 5.
Edward - at Simprin, Swinton. With Wilson family. Evidence of connection: brother William's obituary (Berwickshire News and General Advertiser 22 January 1901) says William "was for some time at Simprim, under Mr Wilson" [prior to 1837].
Mary, Margaret, Isabella - with parents at New Hall, Fowberry, Chatton.