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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: i-z-z-y on Monday 21 June 21 21:23 BST (UK)

Title: Annie Kerr
Post by: i-z-z-y on Monday 21 June 21 21:23 BST (UK)
Hello all,

I am new to researching the Irish side of my family tree and wondered if anyone could point me in the right direction. My great grandmother has long been a mystery in our family tree and we can't seem to find out much about her.

This is what I have so far to go on -

She was born in somewhere in Ireland in abt. 1872.
She grew up in Glasgow with her grandmother.
She married my great grandfather, Fredrick Harvey Gooding, in 1895.
She died in 1929 in Wandsworth, Greater London.
Her father was James Kerr, he was a Tailor and he died before 1895 - according to her marriage certificate.

The only other information I have that may or may not be helpful is a DNA match 4th cousin whose great grandmother was Mary Jane (Minnie) Kerr born in Ireland 1873/4 but not really sure if this is coincidental or Mary could be Annie's cousin/sister.

I would be so grateful for any help or advice with this. I feel like I am going round in circles with it!!

Many thanks
Izzy

Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Tuesday 22 June 21 14:13 BST (UK)
Her marriage record in Scotland should name her mother. Have you found her in the Scottish census records at all.  There are a couple of possibilities in the 1891 census living in Glasgow all born in Ireland at the right time working as a servant.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: rosie17 on Tuesday 22 June 21 14:29 BST (UK)
Hi Izzzy and welcome to rootschat is that your tree on Ancestry that has Mary Jane Kerr down as the sister of Annie ?

Rosie
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Tuesday 22 June 21 14:30 BST (UK)
Your online tree indicates her father was James and her mother Sarah who remarries to a Gallaghar and living in Glasgow in the 1891 Census. Died in 1905.  Have you found the second marriage in Scotland which should give you her mother's maiden name and easier to find a marriage in Ireland.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: rosie17 on Tuesday 22 June 21 15:03 BST (UK)
Do you have the death certificate for the mother Sarah who died in 1905 ? not seeing anything so far for a death on Scotlands People ..What census records do you have for Annie with her grandmother

Rosie
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Tuesday 22 June 21 15:07 BST (UK)
Rosie, are you able to pick up the second marriage to Gallagher which should give us her maiden name?
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: rosie17 on Tuesday 22 June 21 15:13 BST (UK)
Not seeing a second marriage for Sarah so far which makes me wonder if she was married to James Kerr  ??? Not seeing death also with the name Gallagher need to wait and see what Izzy has

Rosie
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: i-z-z-y on Tuesday 22 June 21 17:14 BST (UK)
Thank you all!!

Yes that is my tree. I have information from my dna match that I put on my tree but I am unsure if the info is correct and if Annie and Mary Jane are sisters or if it is a coincidence! I want to be able to verify that my hunch is right and not leading myself up the wrong path as I have no actual evidence to say they were sisters.

My great grandmother was married in London so her mother's name is not on her marriage cert. Just her father James Kerr is named who was deceased by then and was a tailor.

The information I got from my dna match was that Mary Jane Kerr married Peter Traynor 20/12/1892 she was aged 19 and her father was James Kerr, tailor journeyman (deceased) and mother Sarah Gallacher (2nd ..... - not sure if it says 2nd marriage or 2nd name as the text is cut off) maiden name Kerr. I found a census for a Sarah Gallagher and John Gallagher and they had Minnie and James Kerr living with them but not Annie. I think she may have been a servant by then, so can't find them all on the same census together.

Is there any way to find out where in Ireland they were from?

Thank you for all your help!!
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: rosie17 on Tuesday 22 June 21 18:07 BST (UK)
Hi Izzy did you get the original certificate on Scotlands People for the death of Sarah Kerr
I seen the marriage for Annie Kerr in London and the mothers name is not shown on the English records just father's name ..Have you tried searching www.irishgenealogy.ie
It might take a while to go through birth records but you can view them free so might be worth checking ..You said Annie was brought up by her Grandmother what was her name

Rosie
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: i-z-z-y on Tuesday 22 June 21 18:15 BST (UK)
Thank you - I will have a look there.

Unfortunately I don't know her grandmothers name.

The only information I have was from my great aunt (Annie Kerr's daughter) and it is half remembered stories. My great aunt was a child when her mother died and the only left at home. She was sent to Australia to live with her older sister when her mother died and her father remarried. So she didn't really know much and had never met any of Annie Kerr's family members and they were not spoken about. She say she thought her mum may have had a brother called Robert who had an accident with an umbrella as a child and took a blow to the head and may have been institutionalised - but again I can find no evidence of this either!
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: rosie17 on Tuesday 22 June 21 18:58 BST (UK)
Do you have the death certificate for the mother Sarah who died in 1905 ? not seeing anything so far for a death on Scotlands People ..What census records do you have for Annie with her grandmother

Rosie

Izzy do you have the death for Sarah ?
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: i-z-z-y on Tuesday 22 June 21 19:00 BST (UK)
No I haven't found it yet. The death date I have is from dna match but he also put Mary Jane Kerr as the same death date. I have found hers and it is correct. Haven't found Sarah Gallaghers yet though.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: rosie17 on Tuesday 22 June 21 19:15 BST (UK)
Just noticed the same dates on your tree for both.. on the death for Mary is the details the same for the parents and who registered the death

Rosie
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: i-z-z-y on Tuesday 22 June 21 20:04 BST (UK)
I have tried to transcribe the record but can't read some of it!

Deaths in the District of St Rollox in the county of Lanark
Name and single/married/widowed - Mary-Jane Traynor. Widow of Peter Traynor, Musician
F 30 years
When and where died - 1905 April Seventeenth ***** 62 Parliamentary Road, Glasgow
Parents - James Kerr, Tailor (deceased) Sarah Gallacher previously Kerr, ***** Kerr (deceased)
Cause of death - Phthisis Pulmonalis
Informant - Sarah Traynor, Daughter (present)

***** is just illegible!
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Tuesday 22 June 21 20:24 BST (UK)
Could be "M.S." which means maiden surname.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Tuesday 22 June 21 20:36 BST (UK)
There are two Sarah Gallaghers who died in 1903, aged 47 and 61 respectively, one in Maryhill and one in Falkirk.  One of them is likely your Sarah since she is declared deceased at the time of Mary Jane's death, but is alive in the 1901 Census.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: i-z-z-y on Tuesday 22 June 21 22:27 BST (UK)
There are two Sarah Gallaghers who died in 1903, aged 47 and 61 respectively, one in Maryhill and one in Falkirk. 

Thanks Eileen - Did you find this on Scotland's People?
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Tuesday 22 June 21 23:30 BST (UK)
Yes, but I don't have any credits to view, so you should see if either of them are yours.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: i-z-z-y on Wednesday 23 June 21 00:03 BST (UK)
The record for Sarah Gallagher at Maryhill 1903 is a death record for a Margaret Gallagher
The record for Sarah Gallagher in Falkirk 1903 is a record for a Sarah Ballander (I think) and her parents were William and Jane Galllagher.
Also tried the 1897 Sarah Gallagher death record and it is for Sarah White whose mother is Sarah Gallagher.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Wednesday 23 June 21 01:01 BST (UK)
Well, that is indeed unfortunate.  Did you notice that John and Sarah show up in the 1891 Census twice on Nicholas Street -- once with her kids and once they're living with his mother and several others, but no Kerrs.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: rosie17 on Wednesday 23 June 21 06:45 BST (UK)
Well, that is indeed unfortunate.  Did you notice that John and Sarah show up in the 1891 Census twice on Nicholas Street -- once with her kids and once they're living with his mother and several others, but no Kerrs.

Yes I thought that was strange maybe viewing the original record on SP think Ancestry has boobed again ..SP showing 2 different reference numbers for both families

Rosie
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Wednesday 23 June 21 15:42 BST (UK)
Having sorted through all the Ann Kerr/Carr entries in the civil births at irishgenealogy.ie, I have one possibility.

Anne b. 1st(?) March 1871 daughter of (blank) and Sarah Kerr, Barrack Row, Derry.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03310/2213235.pdf

There's only one Ann born to a James and Sarah on 10 August 1872 in Kilkeel; mother's maiden name is McCartin.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Wednesday 23 June 21 16:08 BST (UK)
Also went looking for some proof that James existed. In the 1888 Glasgow trades directory, there is a James Kerr, a tailor listed on Main Street.

https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn30/8463/84636654.30.jpg

However, as can be seen by the 1890 directory, there are a few James Kerrs in the clothing business:

https://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/archive/84645357
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: rosie17 on Wednesday 23 June 21 18:09 BST (UK)
Sarah Kerr /Gallagher is hiding well spent a few hours this morning going through the Irish records ..I can't find any census records for the family before 1891 thought there might have been some baptisms if they were RC ..There was a RC  record for the marriage of Minnie Kerr but no luck with witnesses being family members

Rosie
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: i-z-z-y on Wednesday 23 June 21 18:47 BST (UK)
Thank you Eileen and Rosie!
I am having a lot of trouble finding anything about her too! I believe the family may have been Catholic as my Grandfather was brought up as Catholic.
Interesting that there is no father mentioned in the birth entry record for Anne Kerr.

I didn't find the census with Sarah and John Gallagher with his mum - is that on ancestry?
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 23 June 21 19:09 BST (UK)
Don't think this has been mentioned before but will throw it in for consideration.

Family Search has a N.Y. death for a James Carr born Ireland c1878 (in Ulster Carr/Kerr are the same name and sometimes in other parts of Ireland Corr is another variant)- parents James Carr & Sarah Gallagher-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WN5-N18
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Wednesday 23 June 21 19:13 BST (UK)
Annie's son was your grandfather, right?  Married in a Church of England, but the son raised Catholic?  Was he raised by others?
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Wednesday 23 June 21 19:14 BST (UK)
And yes, the census record is on Ancestry, but I'd look at the original on ScotlandsPeople to figure out exactly what it says, as it may be a transcription error on Ancestry.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Wednesday 23 June 21 20:59 BST (UK)
Think we may need to start over.  Your 4th cousin DNA match would be a much closer match if Annie and Minnie were sisters if Annie was your great-grandmother.  We know that Annie married in England in 1895, and that her father is named James in the record.  Do you have a copy of her death record in 1929 which confirms that she was born in Ireland?
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: rosie17 on Thursday 24 June 21 11:04 BST (UK)
Thank you Eileen and Rosie!
I am having a lot of trouble finding anything about her too! I believe the family may have been Catholic as my Grandfather was brought up as Catholic.
Interesting that there is no father mentioned in the birth entry record for Anne Kerr.

I didn't find the census with Sarah and John Gallagher with his mum - is that on ancestry?

They are both on Ancestry but have been transcribed wrong there are 2 separate census records on findmypast ..and on Scotlands People

Rosie
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: i-z-z-y on Thursday 24 June 21 18:27 BST (UK)
My mum is going to have a look through her paperwork, she thinks she may have a copy of Annie Kerr's death cert. She also said her father (Annie Kerr's son) was definitely brought up Catholic but as an adult wanted nothing to do with it and said it was all based on fear.

Re my 4th cousin DNA match, I thought the connection may be higher up the tree but wondered as Mary and Annie's records show a father called James in the same profession and had died before the were both married was a big coincidence. I think that would make him my 3rd cousin rather than 4th cousin if Annie and Mary Jane are sisters - but I also have a DNA match on there it says 5-8th cousin but I know 100% is my Dad's cousin's son - so I am taking these relationship estimates with a pinch of salt! :D

Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Thursday 24 June 21 18:30 BST (UK)
DNA doesn't lie. A 5th to 8th cousin match is pretty distant and rarely recognizable; perhaps he is not as related as you think; however, what is the actual match with Mary's descendant (ie, CM)?
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: i-z-z-y on Thursday 24 June 21 20:36 BST (UK)
I share 39.5 cm with Mary Kerr's descendant. My mum shares 53.8 cm with him.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Thursday 24 June 21 20:44 BST (UK)
39.5 cm gives you a 30% chance of being a third cousin and 15% chance of being a fourth cousin. Your mom's 53.8 gives her a 37% chance of also being a third cousin or a 2nd cousin twice removed, a 27% chance of being a 2nd cousin, once removed, with only a 7% chance of being a 4th cousin.

Any other matches in common that may be of help?
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: i-z-z-y on Thursday 24 June 21 21:01 BST (UK)
Just seen that he shares 87.2 cm with my mum's sister. There are quite a few shared matches but it is on Gedmatch so not linking to trees!!  The only Irish sounding last name is, ironically, Gallagher!

I will see if I can track down anyone's family tree and see if I can find anything useful on there.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: i-z-z-y on Thursday 24 June 21 21:54 BST (UK)
I have found quite a few trees. Just found a mutual match 5.2 generations away that has Kerr's from Australia going back to Ireland and then Scotland.
Their tree goes -
   George Ker, Kerr/, b. 01 Jun 1708, Liberton, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
   George Ker, Kerr/, b. 24 Dec 1738, Liberton, Midlothian, Scotland, Kirkliston, Midlothian, Scotland
   George Thomas Kerr, b. 2 Apr 1770, Loughkillygreen, County  Fermanagh, Northern Ire, d. 17 Mar 1821, Newtownbutler, County Fermanagh, Northern Irelan
   Thomas John James Kerr, b. 5 Mar 1809, Feugh, Newtownbutler, County Fermanagh, Ireland, d. 13 Aug 1885, Rookwood, New South Wales, Australia
    James Francis Kerr, b. 03 Jun 1844, West Maitland, New South Wales, Australia, d. 20 Jul 1926, Redfern, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
    Mattaniah John Kerr, b. 1877, Coonabarabran, New South Wales, d. 03 Dec 1946, Boolaroo, New South Wales, Australia
    Mary (Mollie) B Kerr, b. 1908, Speers Point, NSW,, d. 4 November 1974, Royal Newcastle Hospital, Newcastle, New South Wales
    Valerie June Horgan, b. 1928, Wallsend, New South Wales, Australia, d. 17 march 1980, Kogarah NSW, Australia
    Michael Vincent Mahoney, b. 05/06/1957, Sydney, d. 28/05/2007, Liverpool Nsw
    DNA Match (Hidden)

Do you think it Thomas John Kerr would be the best place to start looking? Or further back?


Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: eileenwilson on Thursday 24 June 21 22:29 BST (UK)
That's a good big match for your mum's sister.  That's a 50% chance of 2nd cousin, once removed and about 30% for third cousin, so I think we're on the right track and that Mary was a sister to Anna.  Have a place in Ireland (County Fermanagh) is also a good start; can't go any further back as we have to find the link first in Ireland.
Title: Re: Annie Kerr
Post by: aghadowey on Thursday 24 June 21 22:39 BST (UK)
George Thomas Kerr, b. 2 Apr 1770, Loughkillygreen, County  Fermanagh, Northern Ire, d. 17 Mar 1821, Newtownbutler, County Fermanagh, Northern Irelan

https://www.townlands.ie/fermanagh/coole/galloon/newtown-butler/feugh/

1810 April 10th Jane Dixon, servt to G'e Kerr, Feugh.
1821 Do 17 George Carr, Feugh.
https://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/churches/galloon-bur-reg.txt

As I mentioned earlier, Kerr and Carr are interchangeable in Ulster