RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: guest259648 on Tuesday 22 June 21 10:39 BST (UK)
-
Opinions, suggestions please.
1851 census, Seaham Harbour.
Irish community.
An enumerator has written the Christian names of two Irish dock labourer's wives (different families, in nearby houses) as:
TURET
However I can't find Turet as a Christian name in Ireland, or in the BMD register on Ancestry.
So I'm wondering what this enumerator heard twice (in a heavy Irish accent), which he wrote down as Turet?
What's your guess? What should it be? Or is it an existing (but very rare) name?
Thank you.
-
A couple of suggestions from the Web;
Tuiren – an Otherworld woman who was Fionn’s aunt and married to Iollan, one of the Fianna.
Tara – (TAH-ra) “tower”; Old Irish=Temair. In legend, Temair was wife of Eremon, leader of the ancestors of the Irish, Sons of Mil. Temair gave her name to the hill of Tara, the traditional seat of Irish kingship. Teamhair (TOHR).
-
Do you have the families in other censuses to confirm/compare?
-
Do you have the families in other censuses to confirm/compare?
Heywood
That's a highly sensible suggestion - I've been trying to chase them down via earlier/later entries but no luck yet. The surnames given in the 1851 are RICE (I've also seen Race and Rouse in the town) and MCMAHAN (McMahon also).
It's a very fluid Irish community of labourers living mainly in lodging houses, following the work.
There are lots of Bridgets around... which end in ET...
Is there a compressed (or pet) version of Bridget which might sound like Turet?... just thinking aloud...
D
-
You could post a snippet from both entries on https://www.rootschat.com/forum/handwriting-deciphering-recognition/, and add a link back to this thread.
-
There are lots of Bridgets around... which end in ET...
Is there a compressed (or pet) version of Bridget which might sound like Turet?... just thinking aloud...
D
I only know of two pet forms for "Bridget" and they are
Biddy and Bridie
-
A couple of suggestions from the Web;
Tuiren – an Otherworld woman who was Fionn’s aunt and married to Iollan, one of the Fianna.
Tara – (TAH-ra) “tower”; Old Irish=Temair. In legend, Temair was wife of Eremon, leader of the ancestors of the Irish, Sons of Mil. Temair gave her name to the hill of Tara, the traditional seat of Irish kingship. Teamhair (TOHR).
Sandblown
Many thanks for showing me these beautiful names.
The female Irish names I'm finding on the 1851 Seaham census are much more 'ordinary' and predictable: Ann, Catherine, Bridget, Rose, Elizabeth etc.
The 1851 enumerators struggled terribly with the spellings of the Irish surnames!! but the Christian names are usually reliably written. So this writer seems quite confident in what he heard, twice, in the same street (TURET). The 'u' vowel sound is rare among the names here, I can only see the surname DUFFY which has a vowel which is anything like.
I'm trying to substitute alternative consonants... T is very similar to D... ???
-
You could post a snippet from both entries on https://www.rootschat.com/forum/handwriting-deciphering-recognition/, and add a link back to this thread.
That's a good idea, thank you.
The Ancestry indexing system has given TURET for both (it's not always right); my own eyes saw Turet before looking at the index, but anything is possible!
I will see if I can provide the snippets, and we can all take a look.
x
-
Yes they do look like ‘Turet’.
Delia is also an alternative for Bridget but it’s not that.
The son of one, I think Michael Rice, was supposedly born in Blackburn abt 1841 but I can’t see a relevant birth or census entry.
-
Did the Irish use the given name "Doret" which I've seen once or twice whilst surfing and thought it was unusual. Apparently it's French origin and means "gold"
-
So I'm wondering what this enumerator heard twice (in a heavy Irish accent), which he wrote down as Turet?
Information in a census enumerator's book was transcribed from household census returns. He copied what was written on each form, deciphering many different hands. It was the responsibility of each householder to complete a return for his/her household. Another member of the household might have filled in a return if a householder couldn't write. If nobody in the household could write or if the household didn't possess pen & ink, someone outside the household may have been asked to do it.
-
Yes they do look like ‘Turet’.
Delia is also an alternative for Bridget but it’s not that.
The son of one, I think Michael Rice, was supposedly born in Blackburn abt 1841 but I can’t see a relevant birth or census entry.
Heywood
Many thanks for looking :-)
I think I have a clue...
I've found Irish baptisms of children (gender unknown) with similar-sounding first names e.g.
Terit Bohan (baptised Co. Galway) [Bohan is the surname]
Teread Driscoll (bapt. 1929 Cork)
Territt Ellard (bapt 1892 Kildare)
...also I've found other first names in Ireland (mainly) with these spellings: Tarret, Terud, Turid, Torodd, Tyred, Teread and many more.
Someone's suggested the "Turet" is a surname used as a first name (which is common practice where I am = Durham, e.g. "Richardson Watson").
If so, that surname could be Tyrwhitt or similar... and what we're struggling with is the writer's rendition as TURET (which is what they believed they heard). However it would be quite a coincidence to have TWO such unusual Christian names in close-living families, wouldn't it? unless these dock labourers' wives were from the same town in Ireland where the name was common, and were lodging in adjacent houses in Seaham...
What are your thoughts?
D
-
Did the Irish use the given name "Doret" which I've seen once or twice whilst surfing and thought it was unusual. Apparently it's French origin and means "gold"
Rena, thank you...
I was wondering about 'Dorritt' too, or similar...
I don't know if the Irish use Doret, I will have a look :-)
-
So I'm wondering what this enumerator heard twice (in a heavy Irish accent), which he wrote down as Turet?
Information in a census enumerator's book was transcribed from household census returns. He copied what was written on each form, deciphering many different hands. It was the responsibility of each householder to complete a return for his/her household. Another member of the household might have filled in a return if a householder couldn't write. If nobody in the household could write or if the household didn't possess pen & ink, someone outside the household may have been asked to do it.
Maiden Stone
Thank you for correcting me.
So the enumerator always worked from a hand-written document - which was originally written by the householder (ideally), but otherwise by anyone who could do the job!
Looking at the 1850s housing conditions of many of these families, I think pen & ink would be in very short supply, even if they knew how to write.
Which suggests that maybe a local (non-Irish) person may have filled in the document on some occasions, again with the challenge of working out what the Irish were saying.
There's a good book available called "When Paddy met Geordie" - it's based on someone's thesis and deals with religion, not language, but I bet it took some generations before these people could fully understand what the other was saying:-)
-
Apart from the enumerator writing down what he thought he heard or a transcription error when they were later transcribed onto the census forms we view...my first thought was Bernadette...yet I know it is not a 'normal' nickname/shortened version for the name it could be a 'nickname' from childhood that stuck and was used
What I would do if my family is check out extended family to see if it is a maiden surname being used as a first/middle name, (lots of families used their middle name as their given name) so an old surname even a poorly/wrongly spelt one and check out what names were given to children in the extended family....
-
what we're struggling with is the enumerator's rendition as TURET (which is what he believed he heard). However it would be quite a coincidence to have TWO such Christian names in close-living families, unless these wives were from the same town in Ireland where the name was common, lodging in adjacent houses in Seaham...
The enumerator may not have heard the name at all. He may have been merely transcribing the name from household returns. The rendition of the name in the enumerator's book may have been at 2nd or 3rd remove, depending on who gave information to whom and who wrote it down. See my previous post.
Two families from the same place in Ireland lodging in the same street is quite likely. It made sense to go where you knew people who could help you find work and lodging and provide a support network in difficult times. I was looking at an old class photo from my primary school last week. From my own family history research I know that the surname of one boy was common in my GF's area. My parents were friends with his mother. Quickly tracing that boy's line back, I discovered they came from my GF's district. Looking at baptisms of his family in a town near my home, I noticed a godparent with same surname as my GGM, my GF's mother.
-
So the enumerator always worked from a hand-written document - which was originally written by the householder (ideally), but otherwise by anyone who could do the job!
Looking at the 1850s housing conditions of many of these families, I think pen & ink would be in very short supply, even if they knew how to write.
Which suggests that maybe a local (non-Irish) person may have filled in the document on some occasions, again with the challenge of working out what the Irish were saying.
Not always. There is no "always". It would have depended on individual circumstances. Responsibility for completing a household return and ensuring information on it was correct was the householder's.
If the people concerned were from the West of Ireland it's possible that English was the second language of some of them.
-
Consideration perhaps?
There is an entry in 1861 - still Seaham Harbour
1861 3748 /25/58
John Rice 50yrs
Catherine 25 yrs
Your John was 50 in 1851.
Marriage June quarter 1856 Easington
John Rice and Catherine Wynne
Death March quarter 1856
Julia Rice 60yrs
‘Turet’ Rice was 40 yrs in 1851
-
Maiden Stone
Thank you for the benefit of your detailed knowledge, it's really helpful.
'There is no "always"'... for which I am most glad! It means we can interpret, rather than having to accept these writings as the final truth.
Thank you too for sharing facts about your own family. Knowing more about family traditions and customs is valuable in understanding 'how things work'. There is no 'always', but there are regular patterns and practices, aren't there.
D
-
What I would do if my family is check out extended family to see if it is a maiden surname being used as a first/middle name, (lots of families used their middle name as their given name) so an old surname even a poorly/wrongly spelt one and check out what names were given to children in the extended family....
iluleah
Checking out the extended family is a great idea of yours.
I'll see if I can find out more about this RICE family (wife called Turet)... I think a Rootschat member has just popped up some useful details for the husband John RICE, so I'll follow this up... maybe others would help too? I think we're getting there...
D x
-
I think I have a clue...
I've found Irish baptisms of children (gender unknown) with similar-sounding first names e.g.
Terit Bohan (baptised Co. Galway) [Bohan is the surname]
Teread Driscoll (bapt. 1929 Cork)
Territt Ellard (bapt 1892 Kildare)
Terit Bohan is Sarah if you look closely.
Territt Ellard is male.
With regards to Terit being Sarah, I wondered about that but still doesn’t look right.
-
Consideration perhaps?
There is an entry in 1861 - still Seaham Harbour
1861 3748 /25/58
John Rice 50yrs
Catherine 25 yrs
Your John was 50 in 1851.
Marriage June quarter 1856 Easington
John Rice and Catherine Wynne
Death March quarter 1856
Julia Rice 60yrs
‘Turet’ Rice was 40 yrs in 1851
Heywood, thank you
Definitely worth considering, yes; this could be a second marriage for John Rice, to a Catherine (Easington is only a few miles from Seaham).
We'd need to find a death for a female Rice between 1851 - 1856 (the Turet).
Julia aged 60 is rather too old.. but another Christian name might be findable in the same area...
I've chased up an Irish neighbour of John + Turet, a Peter Roper (also a dock labourer) and he remained in the Seaham area till he died, and his descendants made it their home.
So it's very possible that the 1851 John Rice had continuing work in Seaham, if his colleague Peter did, and John stayed there.
What's the occupation of the 1861 John Rice, Seaham Harbour?
D
-
I think I have a clue...
I've found Irish baptisms of children (gender unknown) with similar-sounding first names e.g.
Terit Bohan (baptised Co. Galway) [Bohan is the surname]
Teread Driscoll (bapt. 1929 Cork)
Territt Ellard (bapt 1892 Kildare)
Terit Bohan is Sarah if you look closely.
Territt Ellard is male.
With regards to Terit being Sarah, I wondered about that but still doesn’t look right.
Helpful!
I couldn't see originals, only indexes. (Which are often wrong!)
'Terit' Bohan = Sarah, OK.
The Turet on the 1851 Seaham doesn't look like a Sarah, try as I might.
I wondered 'Janet', but it's definitely not a J in first place.
I'm now looking for deaths between 1851 - 56, surname RICE.
D
-
Easington is the registration district for Seaham Harbour where they are living.
John is a Lodging house keeper in 1861. The address 20, John Street.
With regard to the ages, the John in 1861 is the same age as John in 1851.
Ages varied so perhaps not to be dismissed outright.
-
There is the name Derry.
-
Easington is the registration district for Seaham Harbour where they are living.
John is a Lodging house keeper in 1861. The address 20, John Street.
With regard to the ages, the John in 1861 is the same age as John in 1851.
Ages varied so perhaps not to be dismissed outright.
Heywood
Ages varied, agreed; age seems to have been anything they wanted, according to the occasion! (or an observer's guess). [My grandmother always said she was 37, regardless.]
What I can see online is this:
Census Seaham 1851 John Rice [+ Turet] - his age is '30'; dock labourer.
... [there is a marriage 1856 in Easington, a John Rice to Catherine Wynne]
Census Seaham 1861 John Rice, his age 50, + Catherine age 25; lodging house keeper, North John Street;
Census Seaham 1871 John Rice widower, cart man + lodging house keeper, John Street; his age in the index is supposedly '42' but I can see 72...
There is more than one John Rice born Ireland floating about, but the Seaham John Rice/s could all be the same man.
There's a Catherine Wynne in Liverpool on the 1851, new immigrant, born Ireland, dau. of a dock labourer. (The Irish workers in Seaham often entered via Liverpool and came over to the east.)
What I'd like the records to say is:
1851: John Rice aged 50 (not 30). The enumerator made an error in his reading; 50 would make more sense, since in 1851 John's son Michael is 11 and his wife is 40...
Then in 1861 John should be 60, not 50 [he's represented himself as younger, because of his much younger 2nd wife];
And then in 1871 he's a widower at 70+.. which would fit.
Can't find a death for a Durham-based 70+ John Rice after 1871, can you see anything likely?
Nor a death for a Catherine Rice, which would make John a widower...
This doesn't help us much with the TURET, either, but it's interesting!
D
-
Yes I think it is 30 yrs ::)
-
There is the name Derry.
Dulaigh
Thank you for reminding me. :-)
Derry has the same general feel, it's the right length - but it's the sharp T on the end which suggests it's not Derry...
-
Yes I think it is 30 yrs ::)
Heywood
If the 1851 census does definitely say 30 years of age, then the 1861 recently-wed John Rice aged 50 (lodging keeper) surely can't be the same man.
I think I need a different approach! I still need to solve this TURET.
I've tried to chase up the Michael Rice born circa 1840, son of the John & Turet Rice on the 1851. There's a Michael Rice, coal miner, at Houghton/Hetton (coal village) on later censuses, quite possibly him, but no parents in sight.
The big Durham website [Durham Records Online], which lists transcriptions of all the censuses, gives TURET for both of the wives I mentioned. But it's an isolated instance, & nobody else seems to have this Christian name, which is why I'm questioning its correctness.
Where to go from here?
D
-
I can only think of checking the marriage of John Rice and Catherine Wynne to see his occupation and status. Then checking Julia’s death even though the ages are all over the place.
-
I can only think of checking the marriage of John Rice and Catherine Wynne to see his occupation and status. Then checking Julia’s death even though the ages are all over the place.
Heywood, thank you
This Julia Rice died in 1856 in Houghton le Spring aged 50 (says the Ancestry Index) not 60. Quite a way from Seaham, away from the coast.
I've had another close look at the Seaham censuses for 1851 and 1861.
I don't think the John Rice, lodging house keeper in John Street (over the other side of the railway), is our man.
On the 1861 there's another John Rice, labourer, aged 38, in exactly the same street (South Rail[way] Street) as the John Rice was with 'Turet' in 1851.
The back-South-Railway-street buildings in Seaham are gone now, but they were known as Little Irish Street in their day.
On the Seaham 1861, this John + Grace Rice have several young children with them. There's an obvious enumerator error with the first child which is given as M...l? daughter aged 14, married! Can't be right.
Grace is born in Scotland. Grace died 1868 aged 44 (registered in Sunderland).
The wife called Turet (on the 1851) was born in Ireland (or so it said).
But the 1851 Seaham census feels hurriedly done and none too accurate. Many people's ages are given as exactly 20 or 30 or 40 or 50, which seems much too convenient! Approximations?
Can we find a marriage anywhere for a John Rice + a Grace? Very late 1830s perhaps?
D
-
Yes I saw the other chap but at the time was looking for an older John.
I can only see a birth for John b 1860 mmn Fairburn.
With regard to Julia’s death, I can’t see one at all for Julia Rice on Ancestry using all sorts of searches.
I have checked the one on Free BMD
March 1856 Easington vol 10a pg 155
Julia Rice
GRO gives her age as 60yrs
I can see a Julia Brass in Houghton le Spring 1856
The daughter’s name as ‘un’ squashed in before ‘mar’
-
Yes I saw the other chap but at the time was looking for an older John.
I can only see a birth for John b 1860 mmn Fairburn.
I think this is Grace in 1851 living in Seaham Harbour. Note daughter Margaret Jane born Sunderland, who would be the 'M'J' Rice with John and Grace in 1861
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGJY-2MH
Marriage: Grace Fairbairn + on same page David Conally, 4q 1850, Easington 24 148
-
I had just figured that out, JenB ;)
They are next door to a Fairburn family.
-
On the Seaham 1861, this John + Grace Rice have several young children with them. There's an obvious enumerator error with the first child which is given as M...l? daughter aged 14, married! Can't be right.
No, the original appears to have been originally written as 'mar' then 'un' added before it, so 'unmarried'.
Edit: sorry heywood, I see you already dealt with this.
-
So now that I have the right age for John - abt 1823 is this him?
1851 - wife Turet
1861 - wife Grace
1871 - widowed (age a bit younger b 1829)
Death March 1876 Easington - John Rice 53 yrs b 1823
-
Grace's burial:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-64GF?i=795&cat=825520
-
I was hoping that Julia Rice’s burial could be found after your post re Grace but I found this which might solve that question re Houghton le Spring.
As you can see, it says residence is Seaham Harbour.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JCX5-8JS
-
So now that I have the right age for John - abt 1823 is this him?
1851 - wife Turet
1861 - wife Grace
1871 - widowed (age a bit younger b 1829)
Death March 1876 Easington - John Rice 53 yrs b 1823
Just mulling this over, the one with wife Catherine is the Lodging housekeeper, as is the one in 1871 both in John Street :-\
-
Grace's burial:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-64GF?i=795&cat=825520
Heywood
jenB
I'm watching your searches with interest.
Lots of ladies here: 'Turet' - Grace - Julia - Catherine...
(Johnson Street in Sunderland is very close to the docks area.)
Please can you spell out for me what you're thinking?
D
-
Grace's burial:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-64GF?i=795&cat=825520
Just adding something:
John Rice + Grace Connolly (nee Fairbairn, must be) were married in Fulwell [Sunderland] on 23 Feb 1863 (see FindMyPast).
So these two aren't married on the 1861 census, the wedding came later.
D
-
Grace's burial:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-64GF?i=795&cat=825520
Heywood
jenB
I'm watching your searches with interest.
Lots of ladies here: 'Turet' - Grace - Julia - Catherine...
(Johnson Street in Sunderland is very close to the docks area.)
Please can you spell out for me what you're thinking?
D
I’m wondering how Johnson Street, Sunderland fits in here ??? have I missed something.
-
Ah, I understand. Grace died in Sunderland.
So do you think that eliminates John and Grace from the search?
-
Ah, I understand. Grace died in Sunderland.
So do you think that eliminates John and Grace from the search?
Grace's burial shows her as the wife of John Rice, labourer, which fits with the 1861 census occupation :-\
-
Ah, I understand. Grace died in Sunderland.
So do you think that eliminates John and Grace from the search?
Heywood
I'm trying to knit together (or unravel!) all these details.
I was looking at the address given with Grace's burial (I know Sunderland well) to see if it fitted with any of the other details we have, and I found it's by the docks.
Certainly an older John Rice married a Catherine Wynne in Easington in the 1850s, and it looks like these 2 were running a Seaham lodging house in John St. on the North side of the railway.
Also a different John Rice (labourer) married a Grace Fairbairn/Connolly in 1863 and these two lived in Seaham on the South side of the railway, with what may be Grace's children from her marriage to the mariner David Connolly.
Returning to the originally mentioned John Rice (dock labourer) + the mysterious 'Turet' Rice + son Michael Rice on the 1851, in Back South Railway street - I really don't think this man can be the lodging house keeper. But he could be the John who marries Grace.
I know that people shifted relationships without getting divorced... Many times I've seen 'widower' written down when it's nothing of the sort - the partner has been dumped or abandoned. Our 'Turet' may be alive and well somewhere else in Seaham, and not 6 feet under at all.
So I am still looking for a marriage for a John Rice plus 'Turet' which produced a son Michael (aged 11 in 1851), supposedly associated with Blackburn Lancs, which may well be true even if we can't find a record.
So No, I haven't eliminated John + Grace. This could be our John. But we need firm details of his earlier relationship.
What could they have been doing in Blackburn in about 1840? They ought to show up on a 1841 census, and we'd be able to gauge what 'Turet' should be.
D
-
I am confused. :)
The two marriages should help.
John and Grace
John and Catherine
-
Also a different John Rice (labourer) married a Grace Fairbairn/Connolly in 1863 and these two lived in Seaham on the South side of the railway, with what may be Grace's children from her marriage to the mariner David Connolly.
If you check on the GRO website you'll see that Isaac, Alice and David appear there under the surname Connolly, mother's maiden surname Fairburn/Fairbairn.
However 6 month old John appears on the GRO index as Rice, mother's maiden surname Fairburn
-
Isaac Conolly is with his Fairbourn grandmother and family in 1871 4978/51/26
I can’t see Alice or John yet.
-
Possibly Alice
1871 4919/11/12
Alice Conley servant 16yrs b Seaham Harbour
-
Just thinking about 'Turet' again.
If what was taken as a 'T' was actually originally written as a 'J' the name could be Ju..et?
Juliet?
-
The ‘J’s are written with a loop below the line - Turet isn’t.
You also see Judy as a name which is often linked to Julia.
That there are two women with the same name within a few lines, makes me think it is an error in transcription/hearing/pronunciation perhaps.
I would risk checking that death for Julia just to see if she is connected.
-
I meant that there could have been a misinterpretation of the writing on the original enumeration form - that possible a 'J' had been misread as a 'T'.
I wasn't suggesting it was a mistranscription of the census entry - it's very clear that the first letter on there is a 'T'.
-
Yes, sorry, that’s what I meant too. The census entry looks quite clear.
-
David Connolly 14 yrs b Sunderland is a boarder at 1871 4978/62/47
-
I meant that there could have been a misinterpretation of the writing on the original enumeration form - that possible a 'J' had been misread as a 'T'.
I wasn't suggesting it was a mistranscription of the census entry - it's very clear that the first letter on there is a 'T'.
Heywood
jen B
Hi :-)
Maiden Stone explained that censuses are compiled by an enumerator who copies details from forms completed by the householder/s.
Regarding the 1851 Irish householders + lodgers in Seaham, I would say that very, very few of them could read & write (just look at a selection of the marriage entries for this community, almost everyone uses an X instead of a signature).
Therefore the likelihood is that someone from Seaham (not Irish) has written their names for them. One local person could have written the names for the whole of South Railway Street.
The 1851 enumerator then looked at this person's writing and decided that what he saw was TURET, in two cases: two Irish women in adjacent properties.
But the name isn't Turet, because we can't find evidence for this.
My guess is that it's a common female Irish Christian name, written down in an individual style by a literate person in Seaham.
it doesn't matter how the 1851 enumerator wrote his own Turet. What matters is how he interpreted what he was reading & copying (which we can't see).
The first letter of the name he saw (the capital letter) seems to have had a bar/long stroke over the top, therefore it could be E, F, I, J, T.
Or (unfortunately) the impression of a top-bar could just be a decorative feature, an initial sweep before the letter proper was created. But there was definitely a long down-stroke.
The final letter also had a long downward stroke, causing the enumerator to think it could be a t.
Other possibilities are b, d, f, h, k, l.
Inside the word, the letters are all small, with no upward or downward strokes... The enumerator chose to see u + r + e .... but they could also be a, c, i, m, n, o, s, u, v, w, x, z.
There are no strokes below the line in Turet, so that discounts g, j, p, y as letters in the word.
It's a short name, of probably 5 or 6 letters. The second letter is most probably a vowel.
You keep returning to 'Julia', but the final 'a' in Julia doesn't sit happily with the shape of the 't' in Turet.
I'm wondering if it's JANET or JENET as you find in Irish names.
Top bar on the first letter, then 3 small letters, long stroke in the final letter: it fits the pattern and is a 'real' name.
There may be other possibilities, I'm working on it now!
D
-
Yes, I too thought of Janet/Janet.
I only come back to Julia because there is a mention of her in the right place albeit she is the wrong age.
In your efforts to distinguish between the two Johns who are in Seaham Harbour (registration district Easington) there is:
1856 Death Julia Rice Easington (sorry for mentioning her again)
1856 marriage John Rice and Catherine Wynne
1861 census + both couples in Seaham
Sunderland
1863 Marriage John Rice and Grace Connolly (Fairburn)
1863 Birth Charles Rice mmn Fairbairn - died 1864
1866 birth Alexander Rice mmn Fairbairn
1868 death Grace Rice
This seems to indicate that John and Grace moved away from Seaham.
Added
1871
Alexander Rice, Orphan in the workhouse in Sunderland
-
Yes, I too thought of Janet/Janet.
I only come back to Julia because there is a mention of her in the right place albeit she is the wrong age.
In your efforts to distinguish between the two Johns who are in Seaham Harbour (registration district Easington) there is:
1856 Death Julia Rice Easington (sorry for mentioning her again)
1856 marriage John Rice and Catherine Wynne
1861 census + both couples in Seaham
Sunderland
1863 Marriage John Rice and Grace Connolly (Fairburn)
1863 Birth Charles Rice mmn Fairbairn - died 1864
1866 birth Alexander Rice mmn Fairbairn
1868 death Grace Rice
This seems to indicate that John and Grace moved away from Seaham.
Added
1871
Alexander Rice, Orphan in the workhouse in Sunderland
Heywood
I don't mind you mentioning Julia! Please carry on.
It's crucial to keep everything in mind until we find the right answer.
The thing is, Julia seems a fairly rare name on the censuses.
But the 1851 enumerator saw two TURETs side by side - and the chance of there being 2 Julias in South Railway Street side by side seems unlikely (though not impossible).
I had a further thought: that the Michael Rice who's with John + 'Turet' in 1851 could be Turet's son, born in Blackburn Lancs but before she met John Rice. (And in that case Michael's birth surname is not Rice, which is why we can't readily find him pre-1851.)
There was/is a steady movement of people between Seaham and Sunderland, particularly in this period, since the Catholic Church hadn't yet been built in Seaham (they built it because of the huge influx of Irish). So a registration of a BMD in Sunderland seems as likely as one in Easington.
It doesn't matter, really, what happened to any John Rice after 1851.
What's important, in finding the Turet, is what happened before 1851... whom did he marry?
D
-
I’m not sure I am seeing the situation clearly but I was just trying to say that one John Rice seems to remain in Seaham as a lodging house keeper and the other moves away to Sunderland.
Julia /Judy is found in Irish registers of the time so could be possible but as you say, it doesn’t look like them.
I have looked through Blackburn (and Lancashire) records umpteen times to see a Michael with an Irish surname ;)
-
someone suggested Turet as a surname being used as a Christian name
https://en.geneanet.org/fonds/individus/?size=10&ignore_each_patronyme=&ignore_each_prenom=&type_periode=between&exact_month=&exact_day=&exact_year=&sexe=&nom=turet&ignore_each_patronyme=&prenom=&prenom_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom=&place__0__=&zonegeo__0__=England%2C+United+Kingdom&country__0__=GBR®ion__0__=ENG&subregion__0__=&place__1__=&zonegeo__1__=&country__1__=®ion__1__=&subregion__1__=&place__2__=&zonegeo__2__=&country__2__=®ion__2__=&subregion__2__=&place__3__=&zonegeo__3__=&country__3__=®ion__3__=&subregion__3__=&place__4__=&zonegeo__4__=&country__4__=®ion__4__=&subregion__4__=&type_periode=between&from=&to=&exact_month=&exact_day=&exact_year=&go=1
Turet Rice was a woman born in 1811 in Ireland Daudon . During the 1851 UK Census she was 40 years old and lived in Durham. She appears as the wife of she house in the 1851 UK Census.
LAST NAME: Rice
FIRST NAME: Turet
MIDDLE NAME:
BIRTH YEAR: 1811
BIRTH PLACE: Ireland Daudon
COUNTY: Durham
AGE: 40
GENDER: Female
RESIDENCE: Back South Rail Street
Seaham Harbor
Daudon, Durham
HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS:
John Rice (30, Male)
Turet Rice (40, Female)
Michael Rice (11, Male)
Catherine Mclever (45, Female)
Patrick Callan (46, Male)
ADDED
Just a suggestion - a female name of Jetruite in Clonallan County Down
I wonder if Jetruite was shortened or misheard as Turet ??
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPBG-KF99
-
Turet Rice was a woman born in 1811 in Ireland Daudon . During the 1851 UK Census she was 40 years old and lived in Durham. She appears as the wife of she house in the 1851 UK Census.
HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS:
John Rice (30, Male)
Turet Rice (40, Female)
Michael Rice (11, Male)
Catherine Mclever (45, Female)
Patrick Callan (46, Male)
ADDED
Just a suggestion - a female name of Jetruite in Clonallan County Down
I wonder if Jetruite was shortened or misheard as Turet ??
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPBG-KF99
garstonite
Thank you
It's useful to have the census entry written out here.
,
Certainly some parents chose unusual names for their children... I've also seen 'Jetrude'...
However there are two TURETs side by side in the 1851 Seaham census; different families entirely.
So I'm still attracted by the thought that it's a much more common name; an enumerator mis-read what was written: he 'solved' the first name by using Turet, then saw it again, in the next house along, and repeated his error.
Another Rootschatter showed me that a 'Sarah' in Ireland had been mistranscribed as something very similar to Turet.
This morning I'm wondering if our Turet could be a HARRIET(T), which gets written as HARIET. It has all the right ingredients, with the long down-strokes at front and back, and that crucial R in the middle.
D
-
I’m not sure I am seeing the situation clearly but I was just trying to say that one John Rice seems to remain in Seaham as a lodging house keeper and the other moves away to Sunderland.
Julia /Judy is found in Irish registers of the time so could be possible but as you say, it doesn’t look like them.
I have looked through Blackburn (and Lancashire) records umpteen times to see a Michael with an Irish surname ;)
Heywood
You're very generous with your time, bless you :-)
I do the same things as you - scan the entries for all the Mc's and O's and Irish-looking things!
However I didn't know that RICE is an Irish surname, it doesn't feel so. But I'm told it usually comes from RHYS, which is Welsh. Some census entries have REIS instead of RICE.
The other Seaham family with this mysterious TURET is called McMahan or McMahon (sometimes wrongly written as Mackman). I wonder if we could follow this family, as an additional aid: it's Michael McMahon who's the husband in 1851, and they very probably knew the Rice family well, living so close.
I've also just found a Michael Rice, dock labourer, lodging with a McMahon family in Liverpool (head of family is James)... McMahon/Rice....perhaps this Liverpool man is Turet's son Michael who went back west to work in the docks? Seems more likely than him being a coal miner...
D
-
Dulciebun - I have just sent you a PM... :)
-
Turet Rice was a woman born in 1811 in Ireland Daudon . During the 1851 UK Census she was 40 years old and lived in Durham. She appears as the wife of she house in the 1851 UK Census.
LAST NAME: Rice
FIRST NAME: Turet
MIDDLE NAME:
BIRTH YEAR: 1811
BIRTH PLACE: Ireland Daudon
Just for the sake of accuracy, the census shows that she was born in Ireland. The word 'Daudon' doesn't appear in the birthplace column.
At the time of the 1851 census the family were living in Dawdon Parish, County Durham.
-
Turet Rice was a woman born in 1811 in Ireland Daudon . During the 1851 UK Census she was 40 years old and lived in Durham. She appears as the wife of she house in the 1851 UK Census.
LAST NAME: Rice
FIRST NAME: Turet
MIDDLE NAME:
BIRTH YEAR: 1811
BIRTH PLACE: Ireland Daudon
Just for the sake of accuracy, the census shows that she was born in Ireland. The word 'Daudon' doesn't appear in the birthplace column.
At the time of the 1851 census the family were living in Dawdon Parish, County Durham.
JenB
Yes, I think it says just 'Ireland' for the birth. I'm not sure why the Roots Chat contributor (or their computer) added this word in.
Dawdon (also rendered as Dawden on older maps) is the parish; Dawdon became a colliery town.
Not to be confused with Dalton (in the dale), the village in the dene very close by..
Nor Dalden Tower, the remains of a mediaeval fortified manor house in Dalton..
I've always wondered if they all come from the same word originally.
D x
-
From garstonite
ADDED
Just a suggestion - a female name of Jetruite in Clonallan County Down
I wonder if Jetruite was shortened or misheard as Turet ??
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPBG-KF99
1911 has her as Gertie and birth registration is Gertrude. :)
-
The 1851 census details I posted were copied and pasted from Rootspoint site
https://www.rootspoint.com/search/?CollectionKey=UK1851&FirstName=Turet&LastName=RICE&utm_campaign=gen_green&utm_medium=Website&utm_source=Geneanet
-
The 1851 census details I posted were copied and pasted from Rootspoint site
https://www.rootspoint.com/search/?CollectionKey=UK1851&FirstName=Turet&LastName=RICE&utm_campaign=gen_green&utm_medium=Website&utm_source=Geneanet
I see that site also states that Michael was born in Blackburn Lancashire Daudon :-X
-
The 1851 census details I posted were copied and pasted from Rootspoint site
https://www.rootspoint.com/search/?CollectionKey=UK1851&FirstName=Turet&LastName=RICE&utm_campaign=gen_green&utm_medium=Website&utm_source=Geneanet
I see that site also states that Michael was born in Blackburn Lancashire Daudon :-X
Possibly Darwen (previously Over Darwen and Lower Darwen)? It was in Blackburn registration district. Name of the district is now Blackburn with Darwen. (In the news a lot recently.) Pronounced "Darren" locally. Industries included coal, cotton, paper, iron, brass, quarrying, brick-making. Railway station 1848. Do you know what religious denomination Michael and "Turet" were? There were 2 Anglican churches + several Non-Conformist chapels in 19th century. R.C. school-chapel from 1856; Mass said at an inn from c.1850. Earlier Catholic baptisms may have been done by priests from Blackburn. Anglican marriages of inhabitants of Lower Darwen were at Blackburn churches pre 1839.
-
The 1851 census details I posted were copied and pasted from Rootspoint site
https://www.rootspoint.com/search/?CollectionKey=UK1851&FirstName=Turet&LastName=RICE&utm_campaign=gen_green&utm_medium=Website&utm_source=Geneanet
I see that site also states that Michael was born in Blackburn Lancashire Daudon :-X
Possibly Darwen (previously Over Darwen and Lower Darwen)? It was in Blackburn registration district. Name of the district is now Blackburn with Darwen. (In the news a lot recently.) Pronounced "Darren" locally. Industries included coal, cotton, paper, iron, brass, quarrying, brick-making. Railway station 1848. Do you know what religious denomination Michael and "Turet" were? There were 2 Anglican churches + several Non-Conformist chapels in 19th century. R.C. school-chapel from 1856; Mass said at an inn from c.1850. Earlier Catholic baptisms may have been done by priests from Blackburn. Anglican marriages of inhabitants of Lower Darwen were at Blackburn churches pre 1839.
But the original just says Lancashire Blackburn.
You can check it at HO 107/2392/65/273.
If you look at the link, the word 'Daudon' has been added after every birthplace. Comparing with the original it is clearly in error.
-
I had a further thought: that the Michael Rice who's with John + 'Turet' in 1851 could be Turet's son, born in Blackburn Lancs but before she met John Rice. (And in that case Michael's birth surname is not Rice, which is why we can't readily find him pre-1851.)
It doesn't matter, really, what happened to any John Rice after 1851.
What's important, in finding the Turet, is what happened before 1851... whom did he marry?
D
D,
What is your interest here? Is it Michael?
You write, ‘whom did he marry’ - do you mean John?
It is puzzling if you are not bothered about John Rice after 1851.
-
I had a further thought: that the Michael Rice who's with John + 'Turet' in 1851 could be Turet's son, born in Blackburn Lancs but before she met John Rice. (And in that case Michael's birth surname is not Rice, which is why we can't readily find him pre-1851.)
It doesn't matter, really, what happened to any John Rice after 1851.
What's important, in finding the Turet, is what happened before 1851... whom did he marry?
D
D,
What is your interest here? Is it Michael?
You write, ‘whom did he marry’ - do you mean John?
It is puzzling if you are not bothered about John Rice after 1851.
Hello everyone
Thank you for your continuing interest - please stay around, because we haven't cracked this yet.
I confirm that the 1851 Seaham census entry for birthplace of Michael Rice states only "Lancashire Blackburn" in that order.
The parish the Rices were living in, in 1851, is Dawdon. It's the place I'm sitting in now, while typing this to you.
I'd guess that some online sites have copied the census details and a computer somewhere has attached a wrongly spelled 'Daudon' to some of the births in error. It's definitely not 'Darwen' on the census (but that was an inspired thought, Maiden Stone.)
JenB: I agree, the Rootspoint site is wrong.
Heywood, to reply to your query: my interest is this (as I said at the outset):
What is this name TURET which an 1851 enumerator has attached to two Irish wives who were living in the same road in Seaham Co. Durham?
I think there's enough evidence, now, to suggest there is no such name as Turet, and therefore the name of the two Irish women has been wrongly represented.
But I still want to know what the name should be, which is why I made the original post.
Because (as you've kindly shown) there's a possibility that John Rice re-married quite soon after the 1851 census, there is no certainty that TURET would be with him in later records.
We can't search for Turet's death because we don't know what first name we're looking for.
So this is why I am looking backwards from 1851, to the point where John Rice married Turet - because a marriage entry would give her correct first name.
Turet seems to be 10 years older than John Rice on the 1851 (she's given as 40, he's logged as 30), so her marriage to John could well be a second marriage for her, and her son Michael Rice born Blackburn c. 1840 belongs to an earlier marriage.
If this theory is correct, there definitely should be a marriage entry for John & Turet in England between about 1840 - 1851 (Lancs? Yorks? Durham?), rather than Ireland (even though they're both born in Ireland), because she was already in Lancs when she had her son.
Trouble is, I haven't found a marriage yet, but I'm hopeful...
Does that help clarify?
D
-
So probably your interest is like mine - curiosity :)
There are various marriages in Ireland for Michael McMahon and John Rice to Bridget’s, Margarets etc.
-
If this theory is correct, there definitely should be a marriage entry for John & Turet in England between about 1840 - 1851 (Lancs? Yorks? Durham?), rather than Ireland (even though they're both born in Ireland), because she was already in Lancs when she had her son.
Trouble is, I haven't found a marriage yet, but I'm hopeful...
You are assuming that there was a marriage. Not necessarily the case.....
-
If this theory is correct, there definitely should be a marriage entry for John & Turet in England between about 1840 - 1851 (Lancs? Yorks? Durham?), rather than Ireland (even though they're both born in Ireland), because she was already in Lancs when she had her son.
Trouble is, I haven't found a marriage yet, but I'm hopeful...
You are assuming that there was a marriage. Not necessarily the case.....
JenB
hahaha
I assume nothing. And with humans, anything is possible :-)
I keep all options open and explore them one at a time, and see where it leads.
Given that this 1851 enumerator is not 100% reliable, and the writing was often very 'flowery', I'm also considering the possibility that the surname should be PRICE.
And that both parties could be single, or both could be widowed...
xx
-
So probably your interest is like mine - curiosity :)
There are various marriages in Ireland for Michael McMahon and John Rice to Bridget’s, Margarets etc.
Heywood
Curiosity is always strongly there - but I'm interested in accuracy and correctness... and I'm also studying the arrival of the Irish in Dawdon parish and would like to find their origins, and the reasons why they chose Co. Durham as a place to 'make a go of it', having (more often than not) fled from what they had, in their home land.
D
-
So in the general interest in the Irish in Dawdon/Durham, the death of Julia Rice would be useful.
Do you have access to parish records which you could cross check for Godparents/witnesses etc
-
Have you followed up the names of the three other people in the household ('visitors') in 1851 to see if there are any leads there? (i.e. family links)
-
So in the general interest in the Irish in Dawdon/Durham, the death of Julia Rice would be useful.
Do you have access to parish records which you could cross check for Godparents/witnesses etc
Heywood
I think we're all intrigued by Julia Rice! Since you pointed it out, I've discovered that the name 'Julia' is more common among the Irish community than I'd thought.
I can only see what we can all see online, unless I spend lots of money on certificates etc., which is beyond my capability.
D x
-
Have you followed up the names of the three other people in the household ('visitors') in 1851 to see if there are any leads there? (i.e. family links)
JenB
That's a great idea and it's wise to seize every chance to widen the picture.
I had chased up those 3 visitors: the surnames seemed a little wildly written by this enumerator (I'd love to know who he was), e.g. his 'Levline' was Devlin, 'Callon' was Callaghan; it led me to look closely at the dock-labouring community in Toxteth, Liverpool, which is perhaps where John Rice started off, when he arrived from Ireland.
But I didn't find anything to advance the search for Turet... have you seen anything helpful?
There are a lot of Irish still in this area (Dawdon). Maybe someone has a family tree which leads back to these people in Back South Railway Street, I'm making enquiries.
D
-
That’s a good idea about the trees.
There is a Bridget Race in 1851 2392/546/39, William Street could sound similar to Rice.
Then there is Owen ‘Mackman’ and family in 1851 at Back Terrace
In 1861 they are in Malcolm’s Yard - next entry is Back Rail Street
Their ages are debatable.
I am sure there is much to research ;)
-
That’s a good idea about the trees.
There is a Bridget Race in 1851 2392/546/39, William Street could sound similar to Rice.
Then there is Owen ‘Mackman’ and family in 1851 at Back Terrace
In 1861 they are in Malcolm’s Yard - next entry is Back Rail Street
Their ages are debatable.
I am sure there is much to research ;)
Heywood
A friend of mine has 'Race' as her first name (taken from a surname). Interesting.
I found a historic pic of some of the families at Back North Rail[way] Street, just over the tracks from where the Rices lived. Astonishing shot, tells us a lot about the conditions they managed to cope with.
How do we insert photos on Rootchat, uploaded from computer?
D
-
You go to ‘attachments and other options’ under the text box.
My interest is Irish immigrants into Manchester and surrounding towns. As you say, the conditions were horrible.
-
You go to ‘attachments and other options’ under the text box.
My interest is Irish immigrants into Manchester and surrounding towns. As you say, the conditions were horrible.
Heywood
Thanks for teaching me!
Here's the photo. I don't know how these women managed to keep themselves alive, let along bring up large families; they were heroic.
You have an interest in the Irish too? Do you have Irish in your own ancestry?
D
copyright image removed
-
Imagine all those children in a confined area.
Yes I do have Irish ancestry. I am second generation so it is easier to know my roots.
-
I'm also studying the arrival of the Irish in Dawdon parish and would like to find their origins, and the reasons why they chose Co. Durham as a place to 'make a go of it', having (more often than not) fled from what they had, in their home land.
Irish Genealogy Toolkit
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-emigration.html
Map of Britain showing cities and town with large numbers of Irish-born on 1851 census. Newcastle had 7-10,000. Sunderland 3-6,000 similar to Preston and Bolton.
Usual factors influencing choice of destination were work opportunities, convenience of travel, contacts from home area already in the place. Some Irish people in England may have begun as seasonal or casual labourers who may have worked and travelled in groups. There were also instances of employers bringing in groups of Irish labourers when there was a dispute with local workers e.g. in Lancashire: from Manchester to a village in Rossendale in 1820s; from workhouses in Manchester and Belfast to cotton mills in Preston during a long strike in 1850s.
Irish migration to North East England
https://co-curate.ncl.ac.uk/irish-migration-to-north-east-england
Irish Migration to Liverpool and Lancashire in the 19th century (+ further reading). This article is from a health aspect.
https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/history/chm/outreach/migration/backgroundreading/migration/
One of my Irish families who settled in Lancashire had eldest known child in Preston, 2nd born in Newcastle-on-Tyne (1870) then younger children from 1871 born in Preston. Only on census in Preston so I don't know why one was born in Newcastle. 3 versions of mother's forename on census
returns and only first half of her maiden surname in birth index for the son born in Newcastle.
-
I'm also studying the arrival of the Irish in Dawdon parish and would like to find their origins, and the reasons why they chose Co. Durham as a place to 'make a go of it', having (more often than not) fled from what they had, in their home land.
One of my Irish families who settled in Lancashire had eldest known child in Preston, 2nd born in Newcastle-on-Tyne (1870) then younger children from 1871 born in Preston. Only on census in Preston so I don't know why one was born in Newcastle. 3 versions of mother's forename on census
returns and only first half of her maiden surname in birth index for the son born in Newcastle.
Maiden Stone
Many thanks for these very useful links.
One strand of my family was among these often desperate Irish people who were forced to relocate in a different land.
Thank you for spelling out the reasons why they came to the UK mainland: not one came for pleasure, did they, and many of them suffered great hardship when they were here.
Given the struggles they encountered, I think I'm finding it extremely sad that their names are badly written in censuses, such that we can't identify this TURET (and others too): she's effectively nameless.
I feel I almost owe it to her to put things right by searching for, and reporting, the truth, now that we have so many more resources we can use.
What were the 3 versions of your female ancestor's forename?
And what is missing from her maiden surname in the birth index?
D
-
What were the 3 versions of your female ancestor's forename?
And what is missing from her maiden surname in the birth index?
Hanora, Hannah, Ann. (Another one from another line was Honor/Annie.)
Her maiden surname was McNamara. Recorded as "Mack" in Newcastle. Her husband's relatives seem to have gone to England as seasonal farm labourers. They were in a West Lancashire agricultural district on 1841 census (taken in summer), men ag. labs, women hawkers. They'd moved to Preston by 1851 and were working in mills.
There were more opportunities for paid work in England than in Ireland.
-
Just to go back to my ‘favourite’ name, I spent a long time searching for our Julia. Eventually, I found her registered and baptised as Joanna but on the census, married and died as Julia.
-
I have a couple of Julias who appear as Johanna, Judith, and Julia at various times. They were from Tipperary families.
-
She is my husband’s family and is Wexford but I have Judy in Mayo.
-
Just to go back to my ‘favourite’ name, I spent a long time searching for our Julia. Eventually, I found her registered and baptised as Joanna but on the census, married and died as Julia.
Heywood
I'm confused now!
Is this the same Julia d.1856 Easington?
D
-
No she’s mine.
At the time Maiden Stone and dublin1850 were discussing how names could change in different records.
Sorry to confuse you.
I just referred to the name as my ‘favourite’ because I had gone on so much about ‘Julia’ Rice.
-
What were the 3 versions of your female ancestor's forename?
And what is missing from her maiden surname in the birth index?
They were in a West Lancashire agricultural district on 1841 census (taken in summer), men ag. labs, women hawkers. They'd moved to Preston by 1851 and were working in mills.
There were more opportunities for paid work in England than in Ireland.
Maiden Stone, thank you
What exactly is a 'hawker' and did women do this too? I've never properly known.
One of the articles you kindly showed me said that the Irish moved around "like shoals of fish" and were prepared to be nomadic in order to find work (put food on the table).
Some people think this constant shifting-around is a fault of character (i.e. the Irish didn't seem able to stay in the same place) - but surely they miss the point? You have to go where the money is, or you starve...
D
-
No she’s mine.
At the time Maiden Stone and dublin1850 were discussing how names could change in different records.
Sorry to confuse you.
I just referred to the name as my ‘favourite’ because I had gone on so much about ‘Julia’ Rice.
Heywood, morning
That's OK!
Julia is a lovely name, it goes way back to the Romans I think?
Regarding my original question: I am focusing on the idea that 'Turet' = SARAH.
I've found a John Rice + Sarah in Middlesbrough in a later census, their ages are 12 years apart (she's the older one), just as on the Seaham 1851. I will follow this up and post up some more details today.
D
-
That sounds good :)
Turet and Sarah - same number of letters etc
-
What exactly is a 'hawker' and did women do this too? I've never properly known.
One of the articles you kindly showed me said that the Irish moved around "like shoals of fish" and were prepared to be nomadic in order to find work (put food on the table).
Some people think this constant shifting-around is a fault of character (i.e. the Irish didn't seem able to stay in the same place) - but surely they miss the point? You have to go where the money is, or you starve...
Hawking is carrying items about to sell. They might have stood on a street or gone door-to-door, carrying their merchandise in a basket.
Not to be confused with "howking" as in "tattie howking" which was another thing Irish migrant labourers did. That means harvesting potatoes.
My granddad first went to England when he was a lad in his teens with a gang of haymakers and harvesters. He was a "spalpeen", "an spailpin fanach", "the wandering labourer". Gangs of Irish haymakers were known as "scythe-men" or "July barbers". One of his memories was his group leaving their lodgings at midnight after finishing their haymaking stint in Lancashire and crossing into Yorkshire a couple of hours later, removing their boots so they could pass silently through a settlement where local men had fought with them in an earlier year.
Article about spalpeens and tattie hokers on The Dustbin of History blog
https://thedustbinofhistory.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/na-spailpini/
There are vagrant passes for travel through Lancashire to Liverpool for all my Irish surnames in 1820's. The British government feared that due to conditions in Ireland, a large influx of Irish labourers to Britain in 1830s would cause local workers to become unemployed and lead to unrest. A strategy to avoid that scenario was to encourage and subsidise Irish emigration to British colonies.
-
What exactly is a 'hawker' and did women do this too? I've never properly known.
One of the articles you kindly showed me said that the Irish moved around "like shoals of fish" and were prepared to be nomadic in order to find work (put food on the table).
Some people think this constant shifting-around is a fault of character (i.e. the Irish didn't seem able to stay in the same place) - but surely they miss the point? You have to go where the money is, or you starve...
My granddad first went to England when he was a lad in his teens with a gang of haymakers and harvesters. He was a "spalpeen", "an spailpin fanach", "the wandering labourer". Gangs of Irish haymakers were known as "scythe-men" or "July barbers". One of his memories was his group leaving their lodgings at midnight after finishing their haymaking stint in Lancashire and crossing into Yorkshire a couple of hours later, removing their boots so they could pass silently through a settlement where local men had fought with them in an earlier year.
Maiden Stone
Thanks so much for this.
Your granddad's testimony is valuable - and rather alarming!
So there was always a potential for violence, when these Irish came over for work.
Do you have any more stories from your granddad?
It's helping me to understand how my own family must have lived, while trying to establish a new base in late 19th century England.
Also: it disturbs me to find that nomadic people looking for work are classed as 'vagrants'. It seems insulting.
Just because a person doesn't have a fixed home at a particular point doesn't make them a criminal.
Of course, there are are always a minority of humans who live a lawless life, but people who are trying to work aren't usually those.
But I can see why travelling peoples could be seen as a threat, and it's still happening today, e.g. I lived on the UK south coast for a while, and there were terrible problems when the Eastern European economic migrants flooded in, and literally took over some of our coastal towns. [The locals were up in arms.]
D
-
So there was always a potential for violence, when these Irish came over for work.
Also: it disturbs me to find that nomadic people looking for work are classed as 'vagrants'. It seems insulting.
But I can see why travelling peoples could be seen as a threat, and it's still happening today, e.g. I lived on the UK south coast for a while, and there were terrible problems when the Eastern European economic migrants flooded in, and literally took over some of our coastal towns.
A reason for resentment was that Irish labourers might be taking work from locals or causing wage deflation because they were willing to work for less money.
Gangs of men may seem intimidating to onlookers. Some drank too much on Saturday nights. A fight might break out. Many were doing tough jobs, mining, construction, living in camps. Accommodation for seasonal farm labouring gangs might be an outhouse.
There was occasional conflict over religious or political differences, sometimes stirred up by agitators for their own ends. (e.g. Irish iron workers in Cumberland in late 19th C.)
Irish nationalist movements late 18th-early 20th centuries some of which turned to violence e.g. I.R.B. (Fenians) [Michael Davitt 1846-1906 was a local Fenian organiser who later became a prominent national leader; a priest at my church was a cousin of one of the 3 executed "Manchester Martyrs".]
Possession of a vagrant pass allowed the bearer to travel through a parish and spend a night there without being stopped by a parish constable and expelled from the parish. It was like an internal passport. They were necessary because of the English Poor Laws, vagrancy acts and rights of settlement. Parish authorities didn't want poor people from elsewhere arriving in their parish for no good reason and lingering there. People were entitled to poor relief only in a parish where they had right of settlement. Discharged Irish soldiers who had served in the British Army in the French wars had vagrant passes through Lancashire to Liverpool to embark for Ireland.
English Poor Law and Vagrancy Acts date from the reign of Queen Elizabeth. Monasteries helped poor and sick people prior to the English Reformation. A replacement system of social care for poor and ill people was needed after monasteries were abolished. Civil parishes took on the responsibility.
-
Explanations + more info about vagrants and vagrant passes.
The term "vagrant" was fluid.
Irish Genealogy News https://www.irishgenealogynews.com has an article about Lancashire Vagrant Passes 1801-1835.
Dorset Vagrant Passes 1739-1791 explanation on Ancestry.
The Workhouse website www.workhouses.org.uk/vagrants/index.shtml has an article "Tramps and Vagrants".