RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: chris_49 on Sunday 27 June 21 19:04 BST (UK)
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The RHS are keen to find out who this mystery botanist was:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57601841
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Too early for official birth records or even marriages, but there are a few deaths on FreeBMD
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The Isabella Ann chr 1810 Worcs looks promising, but perhaps a little late
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The Isabella Ann chr 1810 Worcs looks promising, but perhaps a little late
The article said there was a handwritten inscription saying "Mrs Allen, La Botaniste", so we're looking for a married woman.
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OK so nobody has bitten on this one. Well, I found the news story interesting.
I'm becoming more inclined to believe that Isabella Ann(e) Allen of Madresfield, Worcs is a strong suspect. Familysearch finds her there in 1851, with her sister Anne and a cousin Mariane Dance (all "landed proprietor") and three servants, and this fits her baptism there in 1810 to John Henry Allen and Susanna Rebecca, who may be a Cooper who he married 1808 St Pancras, and the only siblings found were John Henry Thomas chr 1809 and James chr 1820 who cannot be found thereafter.
She is also on the 1861 there but I only found that on Ancestry which I no longer subscribe to. Lookup please? I've not found her or her family in 1841, though I think her mother may have died that year in Upton district. She's almost certainly the one who dies 1865 Upton district aged 54.
What makes me think that this is the one is that she is of independent means, which is quite rare. As the article says, only young women of means could afford the time to study and engage in botany. Most young women would need to find a job that involved working long hours, or find a husband.
I don't think she would have lived at Madresfield Court -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madresfield_Court. It's true that the Lygons who owned it were in London in 1851, but it looks too big an establishment to be looked after by a mere three servants.
The article states that there are a lot of Isabella Allens on trees but I've not found this to be true, especially not with the middle initial. Someone of 19 or 20 is old enough to recieve the books as a gift in 1830. What do you think?
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The Isabella Ann chr 1810 Worcs looks promising, but perhaps a little late
The article said there was a handwritten inscription saying "Mrs Allen, La Botaniste", so we're looking for a married woman.
OK, that would scupper all my research, but it doesn't necessarily mean that she was actually married. For instance, that might have referred to her mother who might have shared her interest. If there's a married Isabella A Allen I've failed to find her in censuses.
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Or if she was a professional botanist / botanical artist she might have adopted the title Mrs, like Eleanor Coade (inventor of the artificial stone known as Coade stone) was always known as Mrs Coade even though unmarried, as it was not considered seemly for single women to be businesswomen, but it was all right for widows.
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Thanks, Lizzie.
The article does say "She may be the early 19th Century botanical illustrator about which little is known". Whoever she was, I think that is right. I can't believe that there were two botanists of that name operating at that time - the forename is quite rare, and few women had professions of any sort.
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She is also on the 1861 there but I only found that on Ancestry which I no longer subscribe to. Lookup please?
Image is on FamilySearch. Not a great one!
She is a Landed Proprietor Absent
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3N6-8SM1
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She is also on the 1861 there but I only found that on Ancestry which I no longer subscribe to. Lookup please?
Image is on FamilySearch. Not a great one!
She is a Landed Proprietor Absent
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3N6-8SM1
and the line has been crossed through. I wonder where she actually was?
Roaming the hills picking flowers, maybe? ;D
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Well the address in 1851 is Rhydd Green, Rhydd House
There are some newspaper reports of the Malvern Horticultural Shows and Floral Exhibitions attended by many local notables including Miss Allen or the Misses Allen of the Rhydd.
A later one, Worcestershire Chronicle, 4 July 1860
Several excellent roses were likewise sent to the show by Miss Allen of the Rhydd, but not for competition.
So she was interested in flowers!
A Miss Allen attended meetings of the Naturalists' Field Club in Malvern.
John
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Hoping Miss Allen interested in horticulture was Isabella, there was a sister Ann with her at The Rhydd.
Worcester Journal, 13 May 1865
Deaths
ALLEN.— May 8, at the Rhydd, in this county, Isabella Anne, eldest daughter of the late John Henry Allen, Esq., of the same place.
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Jon, a brilliant find! Once again.
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Thank you, Lily.
Chris, I think your candidate is certainly a promising one. Can we find a bit more?
And it is an interesting story, thank you for sharing it with us!
Jon
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Do you think someone should get a copy of her will before you contact the RHS?
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Well the address in 1851 is Rhydd Green, Rhydd House
There are some newspaper reports of the Malvern Horticultural Shows and Floral Exhibitions attended by many local notables including Miss Allen or the Misses Allen of the Rhydd.
A later one, Worcestershire Chronicle, 4 July 1860
Several excellent roses were likewise sent to the show by Miss Allen of the Rhydd, but not for competition.
So she was interested in flowers!
A Miss Allen attended meetings of the Naturalists' Field Club in Malvern.
John
If there are two unmarried sisters, it would be correct to address the elder as Miss Allen and the younger as Miss <forename> Allen, so more likely that Isabella is the one referred to just as Miss Allen.
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The Isabella Ann chr 1810 Worcs looks promising, but perhaps a little late
The article said there was a handwritten inscription saying "Mrs Allen, La Botaniste", so we're looking for a married woman.
OK, that would scupper all my research, but it doesn't necessarily mean that she was actually married. For instance, that might have referred to her mother who might have shared her interest. If there's a married Isabella A Allen I've failed to find her in censuses.
If this was a description used by a French person, they generally use Madame for an older woman, married or not.
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Someone already tweeted RHS (yesterday) about Isabella A Allen of The Rhydd
https://twitter.com/Historyscape/status/1409149724658184197
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Perhaps Jon should tweet the bits he found in the papers about Malvern flower show and the Naturalists society
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Someone already tweeted RHS (yesterday) about Isabella A Allen of The Rhydd
They should join us on Rootschat!
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I'm a bit confused with Twitter
That message was on a page called called Historyscape, not the RHS page, I can't see it on the RHS page, but probably because I don't know how to find things.
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Perhaps Jon should tweet the bits he found in the papers about Malvern flower show and the Naturalists society
I have a twitter account, no idea why I joined, but I don't tweet at all though. I mean never!
There is someone on twitter who has the same sort of handle as my user name on here, but it's not me!
Anyway, nobody seems to have come up with a more likely suggestion for the lady. So hopefully it is the one who lived at the Rhydd.
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I'm a bit confused with Twitter
That message was on a page called called Historyscape, not the RHS page, I can't see it on the RHS page, but probably because I don't know how to find things.
I've found the article on the RHS Tweeter page now, but not the response because that's on someone else's page, so how will anyone from the RHS know that a potential candidate from Miss Allen has been found?
I've got a Twitter account - signed up because i thought you had to in order to read messages after an organisation I belong to ditched the forum on their own website and started to use Twitter. But I've never twitted, don't know how to use all these hatch-tag things
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Well done everybody! Rootschat wins again.
Rhydd is in the parish of Guarlford but that didn't exist until 1894 so it makes sense. She may have moved a short way, of course.
I can tweet the RHS if no-one has done so yet. I too have an a/c never used. I could refer them to this thread which is more evidence for them.
Chris
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er brother John Henry Thomas Allen is here in 1861
Piece number 2098, Folio 28, Page 3
He was a vicar in Mappowder, Dorset. Probably had plenty of time as well to go out tramping through fields looking for flowers and birds etc like Gilbert White in Selbourne
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Rather than learn how to tweet, I've emailed the RHS press office
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Rather than learn how to tweet, I've emailed the RHS press office
Much better idea!
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Good luck!
Let us know how you get on.
Lily mentioned Isabella's will (good spot!)
More details from the probate calendar, 1865
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=allen&yearOfDeath=1865&page=8#calendar
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Curiosity drove me to order a copy. Only £1.50, so doesn’t really matter if it’s not needed by the time it arrives. Not due until 13th July. What a pity we can no longer just walk into the Probate Department to order and collect a couple of hours later.
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Curiosity drove me to order a copy. Only £1.50, so doesn’t really matter if it’s not needed by the time it arrives. Not due until 13th July. What a pity we can no longer just walk into the Probate Department to order and collect a couple of hours later.
you might get it earlier. I ordered one on 16th June, estimated to come on 1st July and got it on the 18th june. 48 hours almost to the minute!
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I'm seeing a few references to Isabella Anne Allen as a minor watercolour artist, including this one in an auction in 2006 "Isabella Anne Allen - watercolour study of roses and other flowers in oval mount".
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Another ref here https://bidtoart.com/art/hemlock-leaved-storks-bill;-snowdrops/78816bae-bc0c-11ea-ad5f-c4b301b9da2d
I wonder if the mention of 'The handwritten inscription reads "Mrs Allen, La Botaniste"' was in her hand to let comparisions in writing to be made.
Monica
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Identity now confirmed, well done Rootschaters 😁
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57847727
Pinetree
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The RHS confirms our researches. No acknowledgment to me, but the article says several people suggested this particular Isabella Allen.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57847727