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General => The Stay Safe Board => Topic started by: trystan on Tuesday 06 July 21 09:24 BST (UK)
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Well, Covid restrictions are likely to be lifted on July 19 in England.
My biggest concern is that masks will not be legally mandatory anywhere. Instead, it will be left to the discretion of the individual. I wonder how that will pan out?
I can well imagine that many people who have only recently started venturing out to shops will find this latest development quite difficult.
I can understand though, that this will be great news for parts of the hospitality and entertainment industry.
Trystan
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I got the impression that although all legal requirements for masks will be dropped, individual organisations can require them.
Some airlines have already said that they will be required on planes so I guess some transport companies might also follow suit and maybe some shops and I guess the NHS.
The biggest problem might be how they challenge people who don't follow these individual requirements.
Pheno
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Most people I have spoken to are going to be sensible and wear a mask if they will be in busy places, supermarkets and places like that, we just have to be careful and use our own common sense, most of us just want to give up wearing them to be honest, time will tell but I will use my own judgement
Louisa Maud
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I’m sure that many people won’t feel comfortable going unmasked in crowds despite masks not being mandatory in some circumstances/ venues.
I’ve heard that the Peruvian variant is the next one to watch out for. :-\
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Something else to worry about
Louisa Maud
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Most people interviewed on the news and on social media seem to be saying they will still wear masks in crowded places and shops. I just hope they stick to this and don't allow non mask wears to embarrass them into not using them.
I feel that smaller shops, where social distancing is difficult, should be allowed the right to limit the number of people inside at a time and insist on masks. If that stayed as law, it would prevent arguments which are bound to start if non mask wearers are refused entrance.
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I certainly won't be taking full advantage of changes yet - won't be queuing at a bar, won't be going to any mass gatherings like sports matches or indoors events like theatres or cinemas at full capacity. It's now my choice obviously. I will continue wearing a face covering on public transport & in small shops or any other small space. Social distancing will be hard to ditch, we are so used to giving other people space on a pavement; the changes are a good way to stop hugging when you don't feel like it too.
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For us we can put up with a mask in shops etc. but the question is do we go to cafes, restaurants etc. where you don’t wear masks now, as these crowded places with everyone chatting are those at greatest risk. Do we rely on the vaccine to protect us or take a chance.
Mike
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I'm with Josey on this one. I shall continue to wear a mask when out shopping, etc., in the hope that others will do so as well. And I certainly don't want to go to crowded places and mingle.
I have one relative who has absolutely refused to use a mask, and says she cannot do so ( Not, as far as I know, anything except a disinclination to wear one), yet berates people who come too near her! I suggested to her that as she chose to be very much out and about, often in crowded areas, they all possibly thought she didn't give a damn about possible infection.
That was not well received. Probably a good thing that all our communication since lockdown started has been via the telephone!
I suspect it's only a matter of time before yet another variant appears, and the NHS becomes overstretched again, and a lockdown is needed - but, Hey, some businesses will have made a few millions, who cares if some folk die?
TY
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I think Ruskie is right, it's the Lambda [Peruvian] variant next....
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I think Ruskie is right, it's the Lambda [Peruvian] variant next....
I thought it was a dance. A close-contact dance. I shan't be dancing cheek-to-cheek.
Reading Twitter last night it seems there are still people who don't understand the reasons for wearing face-coverings. Many comments on the lines of "individual choice", "wear one if you're worried about catching it", "your health is your problem not mine", "stop being so anxious", "need to get back to normal".
Scotland is a few weeks behind. Scottish cases are now highest in Europe. Easing of restrictions will be gradual and done with caution. Cases were very low in Scotland this time last year.
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I will also continue to wear my mask. People in other countries were doing so long before the pandemic, it's just common sense and not a big ask either.
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I will also continue to wear my mask. People in other countries were doing so long before the pandemic, it's just common sense and not a big ask either.
Yes but did it stop the pandemic sweeping those countries that were wearing masks?
Pheno
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"wear one if you're worried about catching it", "your health is your problem not mine", "stop being so anxious", "
This is the worrying thing, as it seems to be people who think like that who are most vocal on places such as social media. My worry is that some people are almost going to be bullied into not wearing a mask.
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I think much of it will depend on which age group you're in, my guess is that the majority of teens, twenties and possibly thirties won't bother with face masks and those above that age are more likely to continue wearing them.
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I expect it will get the country to "Herd Immunity" quicker by infecting the younger ones who are not as badly affected.
The older ones, and the ones with underlying health conditions have already been offered vaccinations.
Personal responsibility will also be a case of accepting a vaccine when offered it or accept the consequences.
I wonder also, because of this it will increase the uptake of the vaccine to the remaining population?
(just my thoughts)
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Well I for one will continue to wear face coverings and won’t be remotely shamed into not wearing one!
I find it incredulous that the government are not at least saying that on public transport they should still be worn… but when football, tennis etc are going ahead without them what hope is there…
Whilst I’m as keen as the next person to get ‘back to normal’ there is still a way to go yet…
If the cases are rising and hospitalisation will increase how does that not still put pressure on the NHS… I’m baffled.
Caroline
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I'm sure I'm very much in the minority on here, but I shall be happily burning my masks on a 19th July.
While many say wearing a mask is 'nothing' or merely a slight inconvenience, for me it sucks out all the pleasure of going anywhere & doing anything. I feel like a shadow of the person I was, and its deeply affecting my mental wellbeing.
I'm currently testing daily as a condition of visiting my dad in a care home, and although its unlikely he'll still be with us by the 19th, I'll probably continue regular testing rather than wear a mask.
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I’m in Australia and the situation is different here, but we’ve had lockdowns again recently and NSW has just had its lockdown extended. I heard on the radio this morning that there has been an increase of under 50s and even an under 30 who have had to be hospitalised. They have the Indian variant. Whether that is a trend with the new variants or these people have underlying health issues, I don’t know. I think that erring on the side of caution and continuing to wear masks, socially distancing when possible, hand washing etc, might be wise for a bit longer anyway. :)
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I wonder who those advocating wearing masks think they are protecting?
I write that as the protection is specific to the mask.
For example there are N95 masks designed to protect the wearer in industrial situations (workers to dust and small particles ) which are unfit to be worn to protect the wearer against covid-19. There are other N95 masks regulated under product code MSH are class II medical devices which are suitable to protect the wearer (with no facial hair) from covid-19.
Then there are other types of N95 masks with exhaust valves that protect the wearer but which blast their breath to the local environment and the people around the wearer.
The main thing that masks in general and face coverings do is give the wearer and those about them a feeling of confidence.
What I would say is if you wish to wear a mask, think about why you are wearing it and then get a mask designed for that particular task.
It needs to be a specific type such as a N95s product code MSH or similar specification single use mask otherwise you are just fooling yourself and possibly even harming others.
Cheers
Guy
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We have a choice to wear or not to wear but I know what I will be doing
Louisa Maud
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I only go out if necessary and only wear a face mask if necessary. I will be carrying on the same. I am fortunate in that we have a large garden, and live in a very quiet rural area. Local shops, chemist and PO are busy if they have more than one person in them. I won’t be travelling on the bus, or going into the nearest town, neither am I going on holiday.
So I can’t say I’m not going to wear a mask, it depends on the circumstances.
As for hugging, I’ve never been comfortable with it, especially with non relatives.
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My situation has been similar to mumjo.
No car so public transport if I want to go further than walking distance. I avoided buses during a flu epidemic one winter + practised "social distancing" as much as possible.
Also agree about hugs. Not keen on handshakes either.
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One aspect of the mask issue that hasn't been mentioned is the difficulties they pose to people who can only get to see family members etc if they use public transport. If those people have an exemption, or can only tolerate a mask for a fairly short period, any requirement to wear one will only make it even longer before such journeys can be undertaken.
Guy mentioned that wearing a face mask can give a feeling of confidence; similarly, I think I may have read something that suggested those who wore them may be less likely to observe social distancing or look out for other people. Does that ring a bell with anyone?
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The American Medical Association has recently published a peer reviewed study showing mask wearing to be harmful for children ( https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2781743 ). while I am a little bit beyond my childhood I would guess that similar results would be likely to be found for older adults and as someone with health problems I do have concerns about the whole mask issue and the lack of adequate research into it. Personally I can't wait for compulsory mask wearing to end.
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Wonder if wearing a mask on public transport might encourage people to come and sit next to you. Isn't mask wearing more to protect others than oneself so I might think it would be better to sit next to a mask wearer so I might be a bit protected than to sit next to someone not wearing a mask, therefore no protection.
Also if queueing one can stand 2m behind the person in front if you want, but I cannot see how you can expect the person behind to stand 2m away from you, when social distancing is no longer required.
Pheno
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Also if queueing one can stand 2m behind the person in front if you want, but I cannot see how you can expect the person behind to stand 2m away from you, when social distancing is no longer required.
Pheno
You could overcome that in a supermarket queue by having your trolley behind you rather than in front I suppose.
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I suppose you could say. if I’ve not caught it in the last 18 months then just do what you’ve been doing and you should be OK.
However if you wear glasses and have hearing aids then a mask is a pain, or rather taking it off is.
Mike
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[[/quote]
You could overcome that in a supermarket queue by having your trolley behind you rather than in front I suppose.
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Thats a good idea Groom.
Pheno
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Groom, what a fantastic idea if I can remember
LM
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I am glad to find I am not the only person not at ease with hugging! I am also happy not to have to wander round shaking hands in church during "the peace".
I shall probably carry on wearing a mask in some places, and managing without my glasses. I have been muttering about getting a spectacle chain, but I haven't been near anywhere that sells them!
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TOTH
Strange you should mention shaking hands for the peace in church, I wasn't used to it but I did it because I didnt want to upset anyone, so what I do is not move out of my seat , I only shake hands with those immediately near me, some wonder around to everyone.
LM
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In 2012, Walach received the negative prize "Goldenes Brett" from Austrian skeptics, an annual award for the "most astonishing pseudo-scientific nuisance"
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Heard from a third party that a buddy of ours died yesterday morning in hospital where he had been put in a coma after two weeks but never survived it. A taxi driver in his mid 50's who had managed to keep his taxi on the road this past year, sensible big guy and careful so presumably double-jagged? Sad business, it aint over!
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Heard from a third party that a buddy of ours died yesterday morning in hospital where he had been put in a coma after two weeks but never survived it. A taxi driver in his mid 50's who had managed to keep his taxi on the road this past year, sensible big guy and careful so presumably double-jagged? Sad business, it aint over!
Bests,
Skoosh.
England figures in PHE document online
SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation in England
Technical briefing 15
11 June 2021
This briefing provides an update on previous briefings up to 3 June 2021
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/993879/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_15.pdf
Table 18
The Table shows Vaccine Effectiveness against symptomatic disease for Delta after two doses 80.8 (76.3 to 84.4)
I'll continue with hands; face; space etc.
Mark
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Louisa Maud, re "the peace", I do the same, stay in my place, shake hands with anyone who insists, and wave vaguely around! I wish I had the moral courage of an old lady I once heard of, who knelt in her pew with her head down throughout.
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It is difficult isn't it?, , I heard a radio programme once where an elderly lady said it was the only chance she had all week of touching anyone and welcomed it, well done the lady who knelt, I haven' t got that courage either but I do wonder if it will be abolished now
LM
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I employed as "swing round" of trolley in the checkout queue to "move" someone from crowding too close, quite early on in all this. The woman - and friend - and child on the trolley, queuing behind me was getting SO close, so I "idly" swung my trolley round from in front of me to behind me - caught her with it, smiled sweetly and apologised and said that I'd thought she'd have been further away than a mere trolley length.....
TY
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The woman - and friend - and child on the trolley, queuing behind me was getting SO close, so I "idly" swung my trolley round from in front of me to behind me - caught her with it, smiled sweetly and apologised and said that I'd thought she'd have been further away than a mere trolley length.....
Reminds me of graphics last year to illustrate a distance of 2 metres. 2 trolley-lengths apart.
A website for a farm shop showed 2 metres in lengths of farm animals. Keep a Belted Galloway between you. :)
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I usually go self service separated by perspex screens from the next.
However, I've had to use a conveyor check-out a few times in the last year or so and put the next customer triangle divider about a metre away from where my personal shopping ends.
However, it did not work last week when a chap dropped a loaf of bread in the short space I'd deliberately created and added a divider, then he proceeded to sneeze over his shopping :o , but his mouth and nose were mask covered, thank goodness!
Mark
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A new more. virulent strain labelled Lambda has recently been reported in the UK so it seems odd to me that your government would give you all the green. light at this time.
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A new more. virulent strain labelled Lambda has recently been reported in the UK so it seems odd to me that your government would give you all the green. light at this time.
I don't know where u are located but here, after a long 18 months, it is simply the time when the economy has won out over health. Nobody thinks it is going away and estimates are more hospitalisations and more deaths but it seems the economy is dwindling and needs a boost.
Surge in holiday bookings following the changed quarantine rules yesterday.
Rather than the government taking control over how we deal with coronavirus we are now taking control ourselves.
Interesting to see, if after obvious initial spike, things settle down.
Pheno
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It is not just the economy. The UK government has now admitted that the measures against Covid have themselves cost lives.
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There will always be new strains, we can't live with restrictions forever otherwise there will be no life to return to. The vaccination roll out has been a success, and I think we need to trust the vaccine to do the job of preventing serious illness and death. If we don't then what is the point of having it? The economy has suffered but so has people's physical and mental health, and will continue to do so while we live with restrictions. People need the chance to get back into work, restart their businesses and get on with family life. I know of several small businesses who are clinging on by their finger nails. If restrictions last much longer they will go bust, they will lose their livelihoods. The knock on affect of that is that they could lose their homes. Let's be aware of covid and be sensible in our behaviour, but we need to stop hiding from it and move on. Life is for living.
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I am also happy not to have to wander round shaking hands in church during "the peace".
There are other friendly ways of greeting, like the namaste clasped hands or the right hand on the heart; I am surprised these have not been adopted more. Elbow bumps actually bring people within less than 2 meters, though sadly this guidance is part of the restrictions being lifted.
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More than once I've been tempted to try a curtsey, and see if I get a bow in response!
(Is the Lambda one the one supposed to be from Peru?)
TY
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Josey reply #44 and ThrelfallYorky reply #45. I approve of all those greetings except elbow bumps. I don't want to be bumped by anyone. My small, delicate bones never liked firm handshakes and wouldn't like elbow bumps either. Advice on sneezing and coughing was if a person didn't have a hankie they should sneeze/cough into an elbow.
I shall be bringing my crinoline out from the wardrobe and practising my curtsey.
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... and then bump that same, sneezed-in elbow with someone else's, as a greeting??
I'll just curtsey.
TY
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I never did elbow bump, now it also sounds as though it could be a health hazard ::)
I'll know you if I see you in the street TY. How low do you go ;D?
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I'll know you if I see you in the street TY. How low do you go ;D?
A "bob" is customary when greeting an acquaintance. Copy female characters in Austen or Gaskell dramas. Demelza realised she'd been transformed into gentry on marrying Ross Poldark when a village girl of her own age curtsied to her; it was a bob-style curtsey in the tv series.
A Theresa May low curtsey is not required, not even when meeting HM, and certainly not when wearing a short or slim-fitting skirt, or high heels. :)
I'll teem my crinoline with a wide-brimmed bonnet. I might carry a parasol (umbrella) + a fan; either may come in useful to bat someone away.
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Lower than a worm's waistcoat button at need, Josey - but my cats bow to no-one!
TY
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Apologies - I'm thinking that I'm losing the plot somewhere!
Covid associated deaths since 19 July 2021 (taken from BBC website)
19 - 19
20 - 96 (always higher on Tuesday)
21 -73
22 - 84
23 - 64
25 - 86 Not sure what happened to 24th
26 - 14
27 - 131 (again = Tuesday)
28 - 91
Are cases really getting lower? :-\
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54,000 cases on July 17th, 27,000 today. The trend is very obviously downwards.
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Apologies - I'm thinking that I'm losing the plot somewhere!
Covid associated deaths since 19 July 2021 (taken from BBC website)
19 - 19
20 - 96 (always higher on Tuesday)
21 -73
22 - 84
23 - 64
25 - 86 Not sure what happened to 24th
26 - 14
27 - 131 (again = Tuesday)
28 - 91
Are cases really getting lower? :-\
Is wasn't that long ago there was a thread on here about there being no deaths! Now they are nearer a 100 every day than zero.
I suppose compared to the number of cases the deaths are lower.
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Apparently the deaths have increased due to the increase in infection rates a couple of weeks ago. It is now expected that the death rates will start to fall again.
Rishile
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Also deaths follow cases (up to 28 days after a positive test) so current death numbers reflect cases as were rather than the current reducing number of cases.
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Apologies - I'm thinking that I'm losing the plot somewhere!
Covid associated deaths since 19 July 2021 (taken from BBC website)
19 - 19
20 - 96 (always higher on Tuesday)
21 -73
22 - 84
23 - 64
25 - 86 Not sure what happened to 24th
26 - 14
27 - 131 (again = Tuesday)
28 - 91
Are cases really getting lower? :-\
Is wasn't that long ago there was a thread on here about there being no deaths! Now they are nearer a 100 every day than zero.
I suppose compared to the number of cases the deaths are lower.
SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation in England: technical briefing 19
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-novel-sars-cov-2-variant-variant-of-concern-20201201
Gives a load of official Statistics in the Tables, by Variant, how many in hospital, how many under 50, how many over 50, by vaccination status, etc., etc., in England.
Added: Sorry just noticed pdf is up to 9 July. These publications are a few weeks behind.
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Hey ho! We'll either survive or we won't!!! I'll still be taking care!
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I agree BumbleB, think we will be ok if we are sensible and take care
LM
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Apparently the deaths have increased due to the increase in infection rates a couple of weeks ago. It is now expected that the death rates will start to fall again.
Rishile
The charts on the government dashboard are interesting
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
In Jan 2021, cases peaked on 1 Jan, hospital admissions around 9 Jan and deaths around 18 Jan.
First wave (April 2020) admissions peaked about 2 April and deaths about 9 April. As testing was so limited at that time, no meaningful peak in April 2020 can be determined
In this latest wave the data is showing a cases peak on 16 July, admissions peak not clearly defined but there is a slight downturn after the 26th July, and it doesn't look like we're there yet for the deaths peak.
What does stand out is how much cases must have been understated in the first wave. (The graphs can be switched to cumulative to show it better)
On the same wepsite are interactive maps which show vaccine uptake down to local authority level. In some areas the rates are very low. e.g Leeds City Centre 40.0 % first 17.5% second (up to 2nd Aug). 37.3 / 15.4 in Leeds University area. Some maybe due to demographics as the youngest age band only became eligible for first dose in mid June, but surely 6 weeks on, more should have got their first dose.
Leicester which for a long time had one of the highest infection rates has less than 50% having first dose and less than 25% having second dose in the two city centre areas. City centre and City south. Another well known hot spot, Luton, is almost the same, 49.1 / 29.6.
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Check the number of tests undertaken - it's been falling ever since the schools broke up. It would be interesting to have a figure for the percentage of tests that are positive. That would be a much more meaningful figure.
The ONS ongoing study is a better indicator than the Govt daily totals. They are finding a far higher % of positives from their random samples.
Add - link to latest ONS study:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qt4/