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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: mickawinn on Wednesday 07 July 21 10:31 BST (UK)
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Not sure where to put this. I have the above, deceased by 1891, who was a First Mate in the Merchant Service. He was married to Catherine WHITE and they had a daughter, Ellen (maybe Helen) The daughter married (MCMILLAN) in Scotland and just showed her birth as England on the census. I haven't been able to find a birth record for her. Can anyone direct me to any resources for the Merchant Service as my last chance to find the family?
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Can you give any timescales? When was he born? How old was Ellen/Helen when she married & when did she marry?
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Did she marry Douglas McMillan in 1874?
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The 1881 census gives her place of birth as London , about 1849.
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There is a tree on Ancestry showing birth in London & death in 1891 Ayrshire. Age at death was 44 so birthyear more like 1846/47
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Ellen’s death record in 1891 shows age at death as 44 and I saw the tree and census that showed London but cannot find a birth record between 1845 and 1850. Yes she did marry Dugall McMillan and I have all the family information. Having recently got her death record and discovered her father and mother’s name it is them that I am after.
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What information is on her marriage certificate?
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Neale Originally I only had the Scotland select marriages entry on ancestry but I now have the registration from Scotlands People. This has further confused the issue by showing her age, at marriage in 1874 as 24. She is the daughter of John RENWICK, Gardener (deceased) and Ellen RENWICK but I can't quite make out the maiden name. Her husband's age changes as time goes by, i had his date of birth as 25 Sep 1837 but here his age is given as 30 i.e. born around 1844. he is a Police Constable, do you know if there are any police records online.
Any thoughts on the name?
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/view-image/nrs_stat_marriages/11000373?return_row=0
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I think you have to use credits to see that image.
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I just ust looked at the GRO index and found no births for Renwick children mmn White between 1840 and 1850.🤔
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Here is one I made earlier ;D I think it is THOMSON.
Debra :)
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....who was a First Mate in the Merchant Service. He was married to Catherine WHITE .....
You either have the wrong daughter or the wrong parents. Where did you find the details of John and Catherine?
Debra :)
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Sorry about the link, not too au fait with the technology. The other detail came from the death register entry for Ellen. Don’t know how to let you view.
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If it's the right Ellen McMillan death in 1891 SP show mmn as White
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This is Dougal McMillan and parents in 1841 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a141339f4040b9d6ef9d820/flory-mcmillan-1841-argyllshire-jura-colonsay-1811-?locale=en
And in 1851
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1416fcf4040b9d6efe8400/flora-mcmillan-1851-argyllshire-jura-colonsay-1803-?locale=en
Parents Angus McMillan and Flory Blue were married on Colonsay on 9.9.1836
Dugald’s birth / baptism is Colonsay 25 Sept 1837.
See Scotlands People for these records.
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Not sure where to put this. I have the above, deceased by 1891, who was a First Mate in the Merchant Service. He was married to Catherine WHITE and they had a daughter, Ellen (maybe Helen) The daughter married (MCMILLAN) in Scotland and just showed her birth as England on the census. I haven't been able to find a birth record for her. Can anyone direct me to any resources for the Merchant Service as my last chance to find the family?
Where did these details on John Renshaw and Catherine White come from.
.
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Not sure where to put this. I have the above, deceased by 1891, who was a First Mate in the Merchant Service. He was married to Catherine WHITE and they had a daughter, Ellen (maybe Helen) The daughter married (MCMILLAN) in Scotland and just showed her birth as England on the census. I haven't been able to find a birth record for her. Can anyone direct me to any resources for the Merchant Service as my last chance to find the family?
Where did these details on John Renshaw and Catherine White come from.
Should be John Renwick .
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The tree on Ancestry is somewhat confusing to say the least. It refers to Ellens parents being John Renwick & Catherine White & shows Catherine as having one daughter by Renwick in 1850
However - it shows John Renwick having one daughter in 1850 by Ellen Stevenson ??? ???
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It's a bit of a puzzle. It's a long time since Ive used Scotlands people but I recall there was sometimes a good deal of information on death records. Perhaps looking at the children might throw up something.
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The problem seems to be that the parental information on the marriage and death record differ in vital areas. The other info, husband, widower etc tie up apart from his age. I have already been through the census and records for the MCMILLAN children and it all matches.
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I can see a John and Helen Renwick + daughter Helen, aged 8 in Howbog, Lauder, Berwickshire. John is a shepherd.
Helen Jnr's birth place of birth is "Lauder". I wish I could see the original of the "London" in 1881! It just doesn't fit. Enumerator's transcription error?
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The problem seems to be that the parental information on the marriage and death record differ in vital areas. The other info, husband, widower etc tie up apart from his age. I have already been through the census and records for the MCMILLAN children and it all matches.
Are you referring to the Renshaw/ McMillan marriage and Ellen McMillan death.
Ellen would have provided the details at her marriage, but obviously not at her death.
Who provided them then.
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It’s the Renwick/McMillan marriage I was referring to. The widower was the informant for the death record. I have just found an amendment to the official register and in it she is shown as Helen. It gets worse!
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.... I have the above, deceased by 1891, who was a First Mate in the Merchant Service.
On which document does John Renwick show as being in the Merchant Service?
Monica
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The problem seems to be that the parental information on the marriage and death record differ in vital areas. The other info, husband, widower etc tie up apart from his age. I have already been through the census and records for the MCMILLAN children and it all matches.
You have not yet provided us with the information from the marriage certificate. Transcribe all details - names, occupations, addresses, names of witnesses. Without all the bits of the puzzle, we cannot help solve it. :)
Death records commonly contain errors, because it depended on the kNowledge of children or other relations who did not always know or remember well.
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I can see a John and Helen Renwick + daughter Helen, aged 8 in Howbog, Lauder, Berwickshire. John is a shepherd.
Helen Jnr's birth place of birth is "Lauder". I wish I could see the original of the "London" in 1881! It just doesn't fit. Enumerator's transcription error?
I agree, it would be useful to see the original 1881 census. “London” could well be a transcript error by Ancestry.
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The marriage in 1874 took place in the Blythwood area of Glasgow, after banns by the forms of the Free Church of Scotland.
Clip below from the online tree.
Witnesses XX MacDonald and Mina Johnston.
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Not sure the Lauder family mentioned from 1861 is connected :-\
The mother Helen shows with the surname Smail. A later child's birth www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYPX-W2N
In 1871, that Helen is working as a cook in Edinburgh. Aged 18, her is age is consistent to a birth year of c. 1853. The Helen who married Dougald McMillan is looking to have been born before 1850 from all her documents.
Furthermore, the John Renwick from Lauder is still alive in 1881...
Monica
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The Helen Renwick born Lauder 1852, is working as a servant in Edinburgh in the 1871 census.
EDIT - posted at same time as Monica. I agree with your observations. :)
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However, She is aged 24 on her marriage in 1874 !!
That age is not consistent with census.
There was some considerable age difference between her and husband, and Maybe their ages were elastic so it seemed the age gap was not so big.
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Just for the record…
Baptism date for Helen in Lauder is 12 June 1852.
Parents John Lauder and Helen Smail
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This would be the 1881 census to get from Scotlands People to confirm, from the original source, the place of birth for Ellen.
ELLEN MCMILLAN
census 1881
F 32
598/ 2/ 20
Kilmaurs Ayr
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The tree on Ancestry is somewhat confusing to say the least. It refers to Ellens parents being John Renwick & Catherine White & shows Catherine as having one daughter by Renwick in 1850
However - it shows John Renwick having one daughter in 1850 by Ellen Stevenson ??? ???
Comparing the mothers name on the marriage certificate, I suppose it could be read as Stevenson.
Whoever has done the tree isn't sure of the facts.
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I have looked at the 1881 census and it unfortunately just gives her Where Born as London, England.
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There is a Lorton, Cumberland and lots of Renwick ' s in Cumberland. Could it be there.
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It’s definitely shown as London.
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Bear with me while I try to make sense of this …… I hope you can follow my thinking...
Ellen (RENWICK) McMILLAN named her mother as Ellen THOMSON (marriage cert)
And Duguld, her husband, named Ellen’s mother as Catherine WHITE (death cert)
Is this because the mother used both names?
On 25 Feb 1856 in New Monkland Hellen THOMSON married William WHITE (both were previously married)
WHITE WILLIAM THOMSON HELLEN 1856 651/1 36 Airdrie or New Monkland
The 1851 census shows that William WHITE was already married to Jane SWADDELL (born England). They had married Newcastle upon Tyne in 1824. By 1851 they had 5 children.
The 1851 census shows Hellen THOMSON (b.1812 Linlithgowshire) living Rawyards, Railway cottage, New Monkland
with hubby Hugh MUIR an unemployed labourer, and a family of 8 MUIR children born in New Monkland.
Hugh and Hellen were married in 1833.
MUIR HUGH HELEN THOMSON/FR1752 (FR1752) 00/05/1833 651/ 70 165 Airdrie or New Monkland
The Muir family were also at the same address in New Monkland in 1841
In 1861 census 18 Dairy Row New Monkland now we have William WHITE and all his MUIR step-children plus his new wife Hellen THOMSON who is now called CATHERINE WHITE
In 1871 census 45 Bridewell Row, New Monkland we have Hellen WHITE (occupation twice married!), plus 1 MUIR son and a 1 WHITE son.
How does Ellen Renwick fit in? I don’t know.
Was she an adopted child?, was she a niece? or connected with William White’s first wife’s family? or an illegitimate child of someone connected with Muirs or Thomsons or Whites or Swaddells????
AGAIN, I ask for names of witnesses to the RENWICK – MCMILLAN marriage. Excuse me if this has already been posted - I cannot see it.
Can any of you brilliant minds out there more forward with this or shoot holes in it? Either way it might be progress.
Edited to add. It is worth noting that none of Ellen Renwick McMillan’s children were named John. They were Willian, Catherine, Alexander, Angus, Flora, Helen, Dougald
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That`s a lot of great work done and it sounds possible. Well done.
My only query is from which source did this information come from about John Renwick.
Deceased by 1891, who was a First Mate in the Merchant Service.
This is a good source for names but there is no personal information given
https://www.crewlist.org.uk/
Family Search .United Kingdom, Merchant Navy Seamen Records, 1835-1941
John Renwick Birth Year (Range): 1800 - 1850
There are 9 results giving year and place of birth only.
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Witnesses XX MacDonald and Mina Johnston.
Couldn't make out the first name of the MacDonald witness. See clip below:
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My only query is from which source did this information come from about John Renwick.
Deceased by 1891, who was a First Mate in the Merchant Service.
Yes, curious about that too...
Monica
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Neale, how did you magic that up?! Well done, looks promising ;)
Given the pulling together of names, you would think there is some connection to these people for Ellen Renwick.
Monica
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There`s a tree on Ancestry with a lot of info but nothing to shed any light on Renwick.
Martin White Family Tree.
William Carruthers Whyte
Birth 14 JAN 1803 • Muirkirk, Ayrshire, Scotland
Death 16 JUN 1878 • Stockton, Durham, England
He marries Jane Wadell 1803-1854
Then marries Helen Thomson 1812–1874
Name: Hellen Thomson Spouse: William White
Marriage Date: 25 Feb 1856
Marriage Place: New Monkland,Lanark,Scotland
Birth 1812 • Armadale, West Lothian, Scotland
Death 23 JUL 1874 • Old Monkland, Lanarkshire, Scotland
In the earlier census after Helen marries Hugh Muir she is still listed as Helen Thomson.
Why is this, and why doesn`t she marry as Muir. Are there different regulations for Scotland .
I checked the tree and there are no Renwick names on it.
1841
Hugh Muir 30
Helen Thomson 29
1851
Hugh Muir 40
Helen Thomson 39
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In the earlier census after Helen marries Hugh Muir she is still listed as Helen Thomson.
Why is this, and why doesn`t she marry as Muir. Are there different regulations for Scotland .
Yes, there were. In Scotland, married women never lose the legal right to use their maiden name. This is the main reason that maiden names feature strongly for women in records. You will often see, for example where the maiden name is Thomson, Helen Thomson or Muir.
For death searches on Scotlands People, you search with both surnames for a married women (makes it so much easier ::)).
In early censuses, a married woman, as you have found, could show under her maiden name in her family household. This practice died out over the years in the census recordings.
Other examples of this (like memorial inscriptions) but you get the idea!
Monica
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Thanks , a useful tip.😃
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Robert Muir, son of Hugh Muir and Helen Thomson, reported mother Helen's death in July 1874. It is odd that there is no mention on the registration to a second husband, William White. Only ref is to Hugh Muir which is not the norm.
So, thinking about it, we don't actually have William White and Helen Thomson showing as living together at any time from their marriage in 1856 :-\
Could the 1861 census entry you found Neale, with William White and wife a Catherine White, be a completely different woman?
Helen Thomson was born c. 1812 in Lessingham, Linlithgowshire (from her 1851 entry). In her 1861 census entry with William, Catherine White (not clear what her maiden name could be) is showing as born in Airdrie around the same years.
Confusing for sure!
More importantly, specially with all these threads around, I cannot see a young Helen (and variants) born in the 1840s in Scotland, with an English birth place or otherwise, that could fit for this group so far.
Clip from Helen's DC below:
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I have looked at the 1881 census and it unfortunately just gives her Where Born as London, England.
In addition to this, the LDS Scottish 1881 census index also states London England. This index is available to view for free on Scotlands People.
Her entry shows as:
Dwelling: Mc Christies Land
Ellen MC MILLAN
Wife
Married
Age 32
Birth place: London, England
Monica
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William White is living in England with his daughter Agnes and her family in 1871 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V51T-Q4Z
Monica
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Sorry, been at a funeral today with some family history to catch up on. As far as Ellen is concerned this is the mention of the Merchant Service on her death record.
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No need to apologise, mickawinn. Condolences.
This can all wait. You must have had a long day.
Monica
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Just looking at the death cert for Helen Muir/Thomson that Monica posted.
Does it say parents are John Thomson White and Jane White?
Interesting to see Thomson and White together like that.
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Spidery writing at the end does seem like White after Thomson for John doesn't it.
Helen's mother was a Jane Gilmour.
Robert Muir, Helen's son, looks to be a little confused on names and events likely. He completely missed of William White...but other suggestions that the couple were not together for long might mean he was rubbed out her life and the reason his name was not mentioned on her death registration? Guesses here!
Monica
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Robert Muir, Helen's son, looks to be a little confused on names and events likely.
Monica
Yes I think he has become confused with names and 1st and 2nd marriages, and the White after Thomson is a mistake.
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Children of Helen THOMSON/MUIR/ WHITE
• Robert MUIR b. 1833 Lanark
• John MUIR b. 1835 Lanark
• Jane Gilmour MUIR b. 1838 Lanark - died before 1851 census
• Hugh MUIR b. 1840 Lanark
• Margaret Anderson MUIR abt. 1842 Airdrie – married R. Taggart
• William Brown MUIR abt.1845 Airdrie
• Helen MUIR abt. 1846 Airdrie – married W Donald. She is on 1851 census but NOT on 1861 census
• Catherine MUIR abt. 1847 Airdrie - ? She is NOT on 1851 census, but is on 1861 census – no marriage?
( I think Helen is the same person as Catherine)
• Jane Gilmour MUIR abt. 1849 Airdrie – married Alex Browning
• Agnes MUIR abt. 1850 Airdrie – married William Perman
• Archibald MUIR abt. 1854 Old Monkland
----- Husband Hugh MUIR dies – date unknown ?
----- Helen marries William WHITE Feb 1856
• Thomas WHITE b.1857 Old Monkland
COMMENTS:
The only time that Helen would be able to give birth to the child Ellen RENWICK is between Agnes and Archibald – and she is supposed to go off to London to do that. I suppose it is possible if she went off with a seaman , but does it seem likely?
There is no census record for Ellen/Helen RENWICK before she marries McMILLAN. I think she was using a different surname before that, and perhaps born with a different surname.
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No help really but it all adds to the mix.
In March 1886 Robert Muir aged 53 and single applied for parochial relief, he had "no home"
He was born Rawyard. New Monkland , and is the son of Hugh Muir, waggon driver and Helen Thomson.
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• Thomas WHITE b.1857 Old Monkland
Funny you should mention Robert Muir, wilcoxon ::)
I was double checking for the birth of Thomas White, who shows in the household as born c. 1857. From Family Search, I found this indexed entry www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQBS-3ML Without looking at the original image, can't see where this is taking us!
Monica
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Would someone post the details of the 1861 census for Wm White and Catherine White please, thanks.
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I was double checking for the birth of Thomas White, who shows in the household as born c. 1857. From Family Search, I found this indexed entry www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQBS-3ML Without looking at the original image, can't see where this is taking us!
Monica
Very intriguing. Robert, her son is the father.? Perhaps it only indicates that husband William White had left her by this stage in 1857, and she was back to using Mrs. Muir???
I wonder if one of the Muir sons, was really father for Ellen Renwick? Robert and John would have been old enough by 1852.
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1861 census
18 Dairy Row, Old Monkland
William White 58 Head - born Muirkirk - Furnaceman
Catherine White 48 wife born Airdrie
William Muir 16 stepson
Margaret Muir 8? stepdaughter
Catherine Muir14 stepdaughter
Jane Muir 12 stepdaughter
Agnes Muir 10 stepdaughter
Archibald Muir 8 stepdaughter
Thomas White 4 son
Note _ This is a copy of a transcript. I have not seen the original
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Thank you Neale.
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Robert Muir born 1833 seems to have had a tough time. In 1891 and 1901 he is in New Monkland poorhouse where he died unmarried on 31 July 1902.
His brother John Muir was the informant. he gives the parents names as Hugh Muir. HELEN White, previously Muir, MS Thomson.
This seems to conform that Catherine is the same person.
I found this on a tree online with very little other information.