RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Ranolki on Friday 09 July 21 15:22 BST (UK)
-
I can see there have been discussions before about this topic but I can't see that this particular point is covered.
Until recently I had not really appreciated why Mormons (and/or members of the Church of Latter Day Saints) were so keen to establish their family trees. I do now understand the idea behind sealing their ancestors and although I'm very grateful for all the research done by the Church (which often makes my own research easier), something a little nearer to home has arisen. I'm now wondering, at the point they decide to "seal" someone to their family by using proxy baptisms etc, is there a searchable record kept?
I have realised there is every likelihood that one of my ancestors (and potentially his ancestors too) will have been sealed in this way. I'm an atheist myself so on the face of it I would normally just dismiss this as a "fun fact". I'm also fully aware that they say the baptised person would, in the afterlife, have the chance to reject that sealing and I suspect that this ancestor, from a God-fearing high Anglican background, would probably do just that.
Nevertheless, if registers DO exist I would like the chance to have a look. The huge tree I've almost finished is going into a book and I know there are a few older relatives who wouldn't be too happy about this idea. I may just leave the whole thing out but I still feel I need to check if possible!
-
This seems to be something peculiar to the Mormons and as far as I am aware not biblically based. Have a look at this
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Temple_Records_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints#Living_Sealing_to_Spouse_Records_.281841.E2.80.931996.29
but I don't think it will help in finding any actual records to see.
-
I will admit that I know very little about LDS, but I used to visit the local research room to search parish records. One day, a lady was uploading her family tree to the LDS site and made the comment to the Church member "I'm not very sure that I've found the correct wife for this marriage". Answer "It doesn't matter". :-\ :-X Make what you will of that comment!
-
Sounds a rather odd way to do genealogy doesn't it BumbleB ::)
I get the impression that the LDS has some slightly oddball? ideas and therefore are not regarded as acceptable to the mainstream faiths.
I may be wrong as I don't have an extensive knowledge of the LDS.
-
Nor do I - I was just passing on what I overheard some years ago. It was a one-off situation as far as I was concerned, but it did stick in my mind!
-
I also used to use a local LDS family history centre and witnessed similar comments to that heard by BumbleB on more than one occasion. I got the impression that it did not really matter who they added
-
"It doesn't matter"
Well, in fact, it doesn't matter if your goal is simply to rack up more names in the heavenly roster of the LDS. It's irrelevant whether the people were actually married or not. But, who cares if they "seal" people who were not Mormons, who were non-Christians or even atheists. Let's face it, it's 100% guff.
-
BUT Erato - unfortunately LDS appear to add names (ad hoc) of people who perhaps are/were very tied to their own religion, which could be very stressful to their families.
You don't want to know my take on "religion", which I gave up at the age of 13. :-X
-
"very stressful to their families"
As I said, it's guff. It has no impact on anyone living or dead so there's no reason to get "stressed." Religions do this sort of thing all the time. If your parents are Catholic, then the church tots you up in their roll of Catholics in order to boost their numbers. If you're 'born' a Muslim, you can't get out of it.
For all I know, someone has gone to the trouble of "sealing" my ancestors thereby "sealing" me into the cult as well. I don't lose a minute's sleep over it.
-
Thanks for these thoughts - very like my own! I was fully aware there are a couple of branches of my family involved with the LDS but it had really not impacted on the rest of the family in any way. If I have to back off from this I'll be happy to do so but I'd love to know the answer anyway.
I understand they sometimes look back by one generation (about 25 years) and just grab everyone they see as suitable candidates. I'm not sure of the logic but presumably with the get out that the deceased so "sealed" can later opt out!
I did look through that link to the FamilySearch info but it seems any info which might be useful may be on microfiche and not easily viewed. It really is of no consequence to me but I just know one of the older family members who actually knew the person I'm looking at will probably have something to say on this...
-
When I first started to get interested in researching my family history I happened to mention it to my neighbour in a conversation and she said she would help if I needed ... Oh yes please I did need!
She was/is LDS she gave me some LDS family sheets and showed me the basics, cautioned me about the IGI and told me to only ever use it as a clue to look at 'if' there was a real record or not (now the IGI is renamed as 'collections)' as they know people know/caught on the IGI is just names/dates/places, donated in batches of 200 by LDS as part of their religious 'service' and LDS who do that are thought of as 'better LDS' none of anything is checked and I 100% know that anyone can and do send in totally made up names/dates/places and it will be added to their LDS data for other people to search as 'records'...
At that time there were no burial records as the LDS don't beleive people die, they just go to a 'higher place' and if they are LDS then they go to an even 'higher heaven' than anyone else... where they eventually meet up and their life continues together, so any burials sent to them/collected by them the people were sealed into the LDS...so 'born again as LDS'...the fastest growing church in the world...yes because burials/sealing are also added to those numbers of 'new' LDS members.
Now I do remember the huge row with the Jewish community when LDS sealed everyone who was killed during the holocaust and eventually LDS apologised and unsealed them...now the LDS show burial records, maybe because of that media storm created with Jewish people being sealed/maybe not,
In answering my question about why nothing is checked and why 'it doesn't matter' if a wrong person is in the tree ( to me one mistake and EVERYTHING back from that person is wrong) I was told EVERYONE is related anyway so that is why it doesn't matter, it just means they might not be in order... the goal of the LDS is one tree with everyone in the world on it.
'
-
There must be something on familysearch which says who has been sealed because I know my Dutch grandma has been sealed and she was a devout member of the Dutch Reformed Church.
-
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Temple_Records_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints
-
I can see there have been discussions before about this topic but I can't see that this particular point is covered.
Until recently I had not really appreciated why Mormons (and/or members of the Church of Latter Day Saints) were so keen to establish their family trees. I do now understand the idea behind sealing their ancestors and although I'm very grateful for all the research done by the Church (which often makes my own research easier), something a little nearer to home has arisen. I'm now wondering, at the point they decide to "seal" someone to their family by using proxy baptisms etc, is there a searchable record kept?
Yes there is a record kept of all Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ordinances, some of these are closed records some used to be available on the microfiche form of the IGI and a few are available online.
I have realised there is every likelihood that one of my ancestors (and potentially his ancestors too) will have been sealed in this way. I'm an atheist myself so on the face of it I would normally just dismiss this as a "fun fact". I'm also fully aware that they say the baptised person would, in the afterlife, have the chance to reject that sealing and I suspect that this ancestor, from a God-fearing high Anglican background, would probably do just that.
This is a point that causes trouble between those who follow religion and different religions and also atheists. Those who follow a faith often say that is where faith comes into the equation, many atheists claim if there is no physical proof it is rubbish, but people used to make such claims about things like electricity before science revealed the truth.
I prefer to keep an open mind and would not dismiss anything without evidence.
Nevertheless, if registers DO exist I would like the chance to have a look. The huge tree I've almost finished is going into a book and I know there are a few older relatives who wouldn't be too happy about this idea. I may just leave the whole thing out but I still feel I need to check if possible!
Well done for almost finishing your tree, I have been working on a tree I inherited about 65 years ago and I am still nowhere near finishing, but then I admit I am lazy. Children keep being born, people marry and even inconsiderably die. In addition more and more records become available or accessible as time passes so I just keep going, perhaps my great grandchildren or their children might be able to claim its complete. ;))
The LDS share the information freely with anyone in the world who wishes to access it. I will leave this topic with this question. Other religions and many atheists refuse to share what they have collated who is the most generous and religious?
Cheers
Guy
-
Thanks everyone for these ideas.
My tree has been ten years in the making and has involved buying many certificates, DNA testing, double checking many official records, chatting online with new found relatives all over the world and exchanging photos and forgotten stories. It's been a fantastic adventure and fortunately or unfortunately many family skeletons have been exposed and laid to rest. The main part of the tree has now been published in a family book which will hopefully be an heirloom at some point. Obviously more information still pops up though.
What I'm looking at now is one particular relative who had, unbeknown to me previously, a particularly interesting history. He will have his own book eventually - our research on him is now not really genealogical, more related to local history etc. He is the one who may have been sealed. I'm quite happy to leave this out of the story but if the info is there I would love to see it.
I'm very respectful of anyone's beliefs and don't for one minute insist my own ideas are the necessarily right. Mine are what I'm comfortable with. I'm more concerned with how someone who does have religious convictions would feel about this sealing being done to one of their close relatives. If I'm able to look at any registers I would love to find out if any of my ancestors are on there. This is more a matter of personal interest as I probably will not record the info in the book otherwise.
-
Thanks everyone for these ideas.
My tree has been ten years in the making and has involved buying many certificates, DNA testing, double checking many official records, chatting online with new found relatives all over the world and exchanging photos and forgotten stories. It's been a fantastic adventure and fortunately or unfortunately many family skeletons have been exposed and laid to rest. The main part of the tree has now been published in a family book which will hopefully be an heirloom at some point. Obviously more information still pops up though.
What I'm looking at now is one particular relative who had, unbeknown to me previously, a particularly interesting history. He will have his own book eventually - our research on him is now not really genealogical, more related to local history etc. He is the one who may have been sealed. I'm quite happy to leave this out of the story but if the info is there I would love to see it.
I'm very respectful of anyone's beliefs and don't for one minute insist my own ideas are the necessarily right. Mine are what I'm comfortable with. I'm more concerned with how someone who does have religious convictions would feel about this sealing being done to one of their close relatives. If I'm able to look at any registers I would love to find out if any of my ancestors are on there. This is more a matter of personal interest as I probably will not record the info in the book otherwise.
My 2nd great grand uncle joined the Mormons in the early 1840's and moved to USA a few years later. He was a Utah trail pioneer. His parents, my 3xGt Grandparents (both died mid 1850s) have been sealed by proxy, in the early 1900's to the LDS. They were Anglicans and were opposed to him and his wife joining the Mormons, so I suspect that they would not have been very happy about being sealed. Some of their descendants (my direct line), have also been sealed. Unfortunately several computers and lots of years have passed. I cant lay my hand on the source of the information at the moment and it may no longer be available on line, but it did give the name of the temple the sealing took place and possibly who their proxies were.
-
Thank you Gan Yam. I can't even put my finger on what is making me so uncomfortable about this. I'm thinking it's the thought of someone thinking their beliefs are going to take priority over someone else's. It shouldn't matter to me at all but for some reason it does!
-
I'm with you there Ranolki. It's sheer arrogance... and lunacy also, in my opinion.
Actually, religion as a whole steps way over the boundaries. From doorstep pushing of their beliefs to influencing laws and governments to push their beliefs.
-
And the link that GirlGuide provided, doesn't work for me. I get an error 503. 'This page isn't working.'
-
"who is the most generous and religious"
I don't know about most religious but I'll give the Mormons credit for being both open and generous with the records they have transcribed. I have used FamilySearch for years and never once had them say a word to me about religion. Not one single word. They make their record sets freely available to all, even to us atheists.
-
During my younger years, our family used to "host" Mormons as lodgers in our spare room. Being very young I never quite understood what they meant when they said that the came here to "study".
Either way, I only have good memories of the dozen or so that stayed with us. I remember that they used to trade practical jokes with my dad, and on the odd occasion that they would baby sit me, they would let me stay up to watch Match of the Day!
As I got older I could never understand the bad press that they got.
-
I get the impression that the LDS has some slightly oddball? ideas and therefore are not regarded as acceptable to the mainstream faiths.
As a trained scientist, and therefore (I hope) a rational person, I am in full agreement. Although I have found Mormons to be pleasant people, I cannot take seriously the tale of Joseph Smith and those plates returning to heaven. And the notion of inventing post-mortem links between people is faintly ludicrous too.
Despite attending a semi-religious school, over the years I have gradually become a confirmed atheist. Religions which insist that the only Truth was defined more than 1000 years ago, impose it on their followers and encourage them to go to war about it, tend to confirm my opinion. The LDS are not like that, of course, but I find a Victorian re-hash of the Bible rather amusing.
-
Despite attending a semi-religious school, over the years I have gradually become a confirmed atheist. Religions which insist that the only Truth was defined more than 1000 years ago, impose it on their followers and encourage them to go to war about it, tend to confirm my opinion. The LDS are not like that, of course, but I find a Victorian re-hash of the Bible rather amusing.
If I were to label myself I would say I tend to prefer the deist point of view, as no one has yet satisfactorily explained what came from before "the big bang".
Cheers
Guy
-
"no one has yet satisfactorily explained what came from before "the big bang""
And exactly how does deism resolve that problem?
-
If I were to label myself I would say I tend to prefer the deist point of view, as no one has yet satisfactorily explained what came from before "the big bang".
I think the whole history of supernatural beings (gods) arose from peoples attempting to explain the origin of what they found around them, especially things like thunderstorms and earthquakes. If no rational cause presented itself, there must be an irrational one.
I agree about the Big Bang, but don't forget dear old Archbishop Ussher who calculated from the Bible that the Creation was completed in October 4004BC (IIRC) ;D
-
"no one has yet satisfactorily explained what came from before "the big bang""
And exactly how does deism resolve that problem?
It doesn't that is why I was very careful in what I wrote, which by sniping you have changed.
The reason I prefer the deist point of view, is due to the romantic in me which is in competition with my logical mind.
In other words I like that explanation rather than the scientific guesses so far suggested and indeed it could be explained by the scientific thought of initial singularity, but instead of that label (initial singularity) using the label God.
I am not saying the above is correct but simply I prefer such explanations rather than others proposed.
Cheers
Guy
-
I'm very respectful of anyone's beliefs and don't for one minute insist my own ideas are necessarily right. Mine are what I'm comfortable with.
I'm more concerned with how someone who does have religious convictions would feel about this sealing being done to one of their close relatives.
Someone with strong religious beliefs would surely be able to feel confident that their God would set it right. :)
-
Reply 12
I totally agree. the free access to records from Lds is amazing
Im a total non believer but interested in all religions
I didnt use to believe in ghosts or time travel
Either but personal experiences indicate spooky coincidences and events which are hard to explain.
+ I had a spiritual moment when i heard the men sing a Russian song in a synagogue.
Maybe my ancestors reaching out to me.
& Take bits from several for ethical moral happy living
-
I'm very respectful of anyone's beliefs and don't for one minute insist my own ideas are necessarily right. Mine are what I'm comfortable with.
I'm more concerned with how someone who does have religious convictions would feel about this sealing being done to one of their close relatives.
Someone with strong religious beliefs would surely be able to feel confident that their God would set it right. :)
My take on this - and I, personally, gave up religion at the age of 13 - is that our ancestors had their OWN religious beliefs AT THAT TIME. Why do we, in later years, think that we have the right to alter their history? I am sure that a couple of people in one of my families would definitely NOT agree to their being 'sealed' into a different religion - both were Ministers.
-
"both were Ministers"
If I totted them up, I would probably have some two dozen ministers, missionaries and deacons, not to mention hordes of miscellaneous church ladies in my tree. None was a Mormon and I doubt that any of them ever even considered joining the LDS. Perhaps they would have been offended to know that they would be posthumously "sealed" by someone claiming to act on their behalf [if, indeed, this indignity has befallen any of them] but they're dead now, parts of the atmosphere, soil and biosphere, so their feelings are irrelevant.
-
Not quite sure why their feelings are irrelevant. They were, like everyone else in the world, WHO they were WHEN they were. What gives anyone the right to change that, at a later date, to suit their own current ideals?
-
I'm very respectful of anyone's beliefs and don't for one minute insist my own ideas are necessarily right. Mine are what I'm comfortable with.
I'm more concerned with how someone who does have religious convictions would feel about this sealing being done to one of their close relatives.
Someone with strong religious beliefs would surely be able to feel confident that their God would set it right. :)
My take on this - and I, personally, gave up religion at the age of 13 - is that our ancestors had their OWN religious beliefs AT THAT TIME. Why do we, in later years, think that we have the right to alter their history? I am sure that a couple of people in one of my families would definitely NOT agree to their being 'sealed' into a different religion - both were Ministers.
Surely they would regard any actions by adherents to another religion as irrelevant claptrap. Don't you think that they would have confidence in their God to set it right?
-
Surely they would regard any actions by adherents to another religion as irrelevant claptrap. Don't you think that they would have confidence in their God to set it right?
As a non-believer, I can't answer that. However, as they were already dead by the time they were "sealed" ..................
-
Surely they would regard any actions by adherents to another religion as irrelevant claptrap. Don't you think that they would have confidence in their God to set it right?
As a non-believer, I can't answer that. However, as they were already dead by the time they were "sealed" ..................
Well, it's not about what you believe, but what they believed, isn't it?
-
"Not quite sure why their feelings are irrelevant."
Why? Simple, because they're dead and dead people don't have any feelings. As for their feelings while they were alive, many of them devoted their lives to imposing their religion on other people, so they would have had few grounds for complaint.
-
Australia's 2021 census day is currently being advertised and can be lodged online.
I am sure one of my cousins is at the ready, expecting the optional question about religion will be there. I am not sure of their response, as it is either Pastafarians or Calithumpians, depending on their whim at the time. I think others in that household have responded in past years with Jedi Knights, Pollyannaists, and Granmahsmadd.
I doubt any of my cousins family would expect to be sealed after cremation and Ashes scattered....
JM