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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: -Glen- on Thursday 15 July 21 15:16 BST (UK)

Title: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Thursday 15 July 21 15:16 BST (UK)
Good afternoon,

Without ordering from the GRO, does anyone know of another way to find a 1915 marriage record from Maidstone?

(The marriage is for Mabel Smith and Charles/Percy Stevens)

Thanks very much,
Glen
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: PaulineJ on Thursday 15 July 21 15:23 BST (UK)
Try and find it in parish records

Marriage Locator website may help narrow it down.
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 15 July 21 15:24 BST (UK)
The marriage is at Bearsted, FindMyPast have the image
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Thursday 15 July 21 17:37 BST (UK)
Perfect! Thank you so much!  :)
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 15 July 21 18:44 BST (UK)
Just looked at the marriage image. Interesting Mabel Lilian Smith is a spinster but her father is recorded as William (Lamkin).

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Thursday 15 July 21 18:48 BST (UK)
Thanks John. That's really interesting.
I'll see if I can find Mabel before 1915 and anything on William Lamkin.
Thanks for your help,
Glen
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 15 July 21 19:00 BST (UK)
Glen, Mabel and Percy appear together on the 1939 register. Mabel died with the same birthdate

Deaths Dec 1969 
STEVENS    Mabel Lilian    20De1894    Tonbridge    5f   2098

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Thursday 15 July 21 19:03 BST (UK)
Thanks John. Strange I can't find anything for Mabel prior to the 1915 marriage.
I'll try the 1911 Census.
Are you able to read the marriage witness name? Lillie Ore? Ork?

Glen
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 15 July 21 19:05 BST (UK)
I read it as ELSE.

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Thursday 15 July 21 19:12 BST (UK)
You're right. Thanks for that!

Glen
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 15 July 21 19:33 BST (UK)
Glen, Mabel and Percy appear together on the 1939 register. Mabel died with the same birthdate

Deaths Dec 1969 
STEVENS    Mabel Lilian    20De1894    Tonbridge    5f   2098

John

Mabel Lamkin
Born 20 Dec 1894
Baptism    10 Mar 1898  Shoreditch St Leonard, Hackney
Father:    William Lamkin , labourer Mother:    Ellen abode 17 Tabernacle St

Mabel Lamkin
Admission Age:   3
Admission Date:   15 Feb 1898
Admission Place:   Hackney, Shoreditch, London
Note says (Illeg.) mother Ellen (canít make out next word) W.H.

Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 15 July 21 19:43 BST (UK)
Donít know if related also this baptism but father occ bricklayer

Elsie Lamkin
Born 3 Aug Baptism    11 Aug 1898 Shoreditch St Leonard, Hackney
Father:    William Lamkin Mother:    Ellen abode Shoreditch Infirmary

LAMKIN, ELSIE    Mmn    LANGLEY 
GRO Reference: 1898  S Quarter in SHOREDITCH  Volume 01C  Page 105

Edit to add

LAMKIN, ELSIE    age    0 
GRO Reference: 1898  S Quarter in SHOREDITCH  Volume 01C  Page 91
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Thursday 15 July 21 19:51 BST (UK)
Thank you so much! This is all fantastic and extremely intriguing to see the name Langley pop up!

I will follow up on those Lamkin leads. Can't thank you enough!

Glen  :)
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 15 July 21 19:55 BST (UK)
There is a marriage entry Jun 1883 Maidstone which might tie in with Elsie's birth

Amelia Ellen Langley
male name on same page
William Thomas Lamkin

edit to add This appears to be Amelia's birth entry

LANGLEY, AMELIA  ELLEN     mmn CHAMPION 
GRO Reference: 1859  D Quarter in MEDWAY  Volume 02A  Page 325
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Thursday 15 July 21 19:59 BST (UK)
Thank you again! This is all fantastic stuff.

I think I've now found her birth record:

Mabel Smith LAMKIN Mar 1895 West Ham

Glen
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 15 July 21 20:14 BST (UK)
Thank you again! This is all fantastic stuff.

I think I've now found her birth record:

Mabel Smith LAMKIN Mar 1895 West Ham

Glen

That would fit with her birth Dec 1894 and  reg 1895

There are also these Workhouse records

Ellen Lamkin Mar 1859, Charing
Mabel 1895, Child of Ellen
Record Type:   Admission and Discharge
Admission Date:   28 Jul 1898
Admission Place:   Hackney, Shoreditch, London
Discharge Date:   28 Jul 1898
Discharge Place:   Hackney, Shoreditch,

Ellen Lamkin Mar 1859, Charing
Mabel 1895, mother Ellen
Record Type:   Admission and Discharge
Admission Date:   22 Aug 1898
Admission Place:   Hackney, St Leonards Shoreditch, London
Discharge Date:   22 Aug 1898, Own Request
Discharge Place:   Hackney, Shoreditch

possible birth entry for mother Ellen, although WH Mar 1859  :-\

LAMKIN, ELLEN   mmn NICKELS
GRO Reference: 1858  S Quarter in MAIDSTONE  Volume 02A  Page 391   
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 15 July 21 20:20 BST (UK)
There is this 1911 census entry for a William bn1856 Bearstead & Ellen Lamkin bn 1859 Rochester, his occupation General Labourer
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWDR-7X7

You would need to check original to see if they had any children, how long married
(it might be  William Thomas Lamkin & Amelia Ellen Langley)
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 15 July 21 20:55 BST (UK)
There is a marriage entry Jun 1883 Maidstone which might tie in with Elsie's birth

Amelia Ellen Langley
male name on same page
William Thomas Lamkin

edit to add This appears to be Amelia's birth entry

LANGLEY, AMELIA  ELLEN     mmn CHAMPION 
GRO Reference: 1859  D Quarter in MEDWAY  Volume 02A  Page 325

For info. for you to look at just in case there's a connection with this William Thomas Lamkin to Mabel

Lily Amelia Lamkin age 6
Birth 18 Jul 1881
Baptism 6 Jun 1888 South Wimbledon, Holy Trinity and St Peter, Surrey
Father William Thomas Lamkin , labourer mother Amelia Ellen abode 85 Russell Road

Eva Helen Lamkin
Baptism 28 Mar 1886 Bearstead, Kent,
Father:   William Thomas Lamkin Mother:   Amelia Ellen

Minnie Lamkin
Baptism    29 Apr 1888 Wimbledon, St Mary, Surrey
Father:   William Thomas Lamkin, labourer Mother:Amelia Ellen , abode Wimbledon

William Thomas Lamkin
Christening 25 May 1884 Maidstone, Kent
Father William Thomas Lamkin Mother Amelia Ellen

LAMKIN, WILLIAM  THOMAS   mmn LANGLEY
GRO Reference: 1884  J Quarter in MAIDSTONE  Volume 02A  Page 712   

William died 1884

see reply 11 Elsie Lamkin




Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Thursday 15 July 21 21:00 BST (UK)
Thank you so much!!
Yes, this seems to be all related to the right family and that is them in the 1911 Census. Thank you!
I've just had a look too and found the following children:

1881 Lily Amelia LANGLEY (Birth and death registered as Langley, however baptism is Lamkin)
1883 Married
1884 William Thomas LAMKIN
1886 Eva Ellen LAMKIN
1888 Minnie LAMKIN
1892 Caroline LAMKIN
1894 Mabel Smith LAMKIN
1898 Elsie LAMKIN

Thanks again,
Glen
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 15 July 21 21:03 BST (UK)

LAMKIN, ELLEN   mmn NICKELS
GRO Reference: 1858  S Quarter in MAIDSTONE  Volume 02A  Page 391

LAMKIN, WILLIAM  THOMAS  mmn   NICKELS 
GRO Reference: 1856  D Quarter in MAIDSTONE  Volume 02A  Page 395

Edit to add Ellen & William siblings

1861 census
James LAMKIN 26, Mary 27, William 4 , Ellen 2 &  Joseph J 1 & Eliza NICKOLLS 16 sister in law
Ellen Lamkin died 1864 age 6
   
William Thomas Lamkin
Baptism 16 Nov 1856 Bearstead, Kent
Father:   James Lamkin Mother:   Mercy
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 15 July 21 21:11 BST (UK)
Have a look at this 1911 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWDR-LF7

Minnie CONWAY 40 Rochester wife
Mary Ann LANGLEY mother in law
niece Caroline LAMKEN age 18
and a
Lily EKE? age 15 Maidstone Step daughter
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Thursday 15 July 21 21:12 BST (UK)
This is really interesting! There was a Lillie Else as a witness on the 1915 marriage.
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 15 July 21 21:14 BST (UK)
This is really interesting! There was a Lillie Else as a witness on the 1915 marriage.

GRO indexes not working for me at the moment to find mmn but there is this birth entry

Lillie Eke DEC 1895 Maidstone Volume:   2a Page:   717

Edit - Seems to be working now

EKE, LILLIE       mmn LANGLEY 
GRO Reference: 1895  D Quarter in MAIDSTONE  Volume 02A  Page 717
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 15 July 21 21:19 BST (UK)
possible marriage

Lilie Eke to E W Scott
Sep 1917 Medway Kent
Volume 2a Page Number:   1709

Lillie Scott Age:   45
Mar 1941 Strood Kent
Volume:   2a Page:   2428

Edit to add

Minnie Langley
Registration Dec 1894 Maidstone Volume:   2a Page:   1302
name on same page
Joseph Hanfleet Eke

Minnie Eke married 1902 name on same page William Henry Conway
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Friday 16 July 21 00:00 BST (UK)
I can't thank you enough for all of your help!
I'll look into this some more tomorrow.
Thanks again. Goodnight  :)
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Friday 16 July 21 09:04 BST (UK)
Well done Ladyhawk, good sleuthing, came to some of those conclusions last night and was going to post this morning but did not as I'm not a night owl.

Just to add to the mix, think William Thomas Lamkin c 1856 mmn Nickels remarried 24.12.1899 Christ Church, Chelsea.

William Thomas Lamkin - widower aged 40-labourer- Father James Lamkin-occ-Shoemaker
Sarah Ann Lee-widow- father George Cox-occ-Brewer's Lab

Both of 50 Beaufort St

Witnesses, Edward Lee & Edith Collings.


The image of James Lamkin (father) to Mercy Nicholls
in 1855 available to view on FindMyPast to add for further research.

John


Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Friday 16 July 21 09:08 BST (UK)
Glen, think Ladyhawks eyesight is better than ours, the surname is EKE not Else :)

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Friday 16 July 21 09:18 BST (UK)
1901 census for William Lamkin & Sarah A

 RG13; Piece: 441; Folio: 131; Page: 28

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Friday 16 July 21 10:06 BST (UK)
Death of Amelia Ellen Lamkin.

Deaths Mar 1931 
Lamkin    Amelia E(Ellen on gro record)    72    Sevenoaks    2a   1327

Possible death of William (Thomas) Lamkin, he did marry in Chelsea in 1899 age is out a bit (4 years)

Deaths Sep 1928   
Lamkin    William    56    Chelsea    1a   355


John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Friday 16 July 21 10:24 BST (UK)
So are we thinking that William remarried when Ellen went into the Workhouse in 1898?  ???

Looks like there are multiple William Thomas Lamkins in the area, of similar age. Perhaps it's not him in 1899?  ??? William and Ellen and living together in the 1911 Census and 1920 Electoral Roll at Church Lane, Bearsted, so perhaps the 1899 marriage is a different William.
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Friday 16 July 21 11:44 BST (UK)
Their daughter Caroline Lamkin marries Archibald Frederick Shepherd in 1913 but then seems to vanish  ???
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Friday 16 July 21 20:22 BST (UK)
Hoping not to cause any confusion but not sure what to make of this record from
London England Workhouse Admission & Discharge Records 1764 - 1930

Record Type:   Admission
Admission Date:   1906-1908
Admission Place:   Camden, St Pancras, London

LAMKIN William 1859  ?? Labr.
    ď         Amelia 1860  needlework
under heading nearest relative or friends it says
Daughter Mrs ASHFORD, 31 Sandwich St.

So did some investigating and there is a marriage Sep 1907 Pancras

MINNIE Lamkin
Male name on same page
Frederick ASHFORD

The 1907 marriage detail is available to view on Anc*y

Minnie LAMKIN age 21 a spinster
her address 31 Sandwich Street
Her father a labourer but his name is JOHN Lamkin  :-\

Minnie is on the 1911 census age 23 born Wimbledon with her husband and two children
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW52-SKV

She is on 1939 register in Uckfield Sussex as Winnie Ashford age 51

Looks as if she dies in Wales

Minnie Ashford of 1 the Avenue Merthyr Tydfil
Died    26 Jun 1965
Administration Llandaff 13 Aug 1965 to Frederick
   
Frederick Ashford of 1 The Avenue Merthyr Tydfil
Died    23 Feb 1976
Probate    7 May 1976
Probate Registry:   Llandaff


I think I've now found her birth record:

Mabel Smith LAMKIN Mar 1895 West Ham


Perhaps Mabel's birth record might help with her mother Ellen  ???

Edit to add

Has Mabel be found on 1901 & 1911 census?


Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Friday 16 July 21 21:14 BST (UK)
So are we thinking that William remarried when Ellen went into the Workhouse in 1898?  ???

Looks like there are multiple William Thomas Lamkins in the area, of similar age. Perhaps it's not him in 1899?  ??? William and Ellen and living together in the 1911 Census and 1920 Electoral Roll at Church Lane, Bearsted, so perhaps the 1899 marriage is a different William.

Glen, Please do not dismiss this marriage, reasons below.

1. Between 1850-1860 only 1 William Lamkin is born in Kent.
2. 1861 & 1871 census have William with his parents James & Mercy. On both occasions James is either a boot and shoe maker/ shoemaker.
3. William Thomas joined the army in 1877 aged 19 years and 5 months-details on his joining and subsequent joining are on Findmypast. Probably abroad for 1881 census
4 The marriage in 1899 details his father as James Lamkin occupation "Shoemaker"

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Friday 16 July 21 21:33 BST (UK)
Another of William's daughters marriage's

Marriages Jun 1905 
Lamkin    Ellen        Lambeth    1d   846     (This is Eva Ellen Lamkin)
TURNER    Herbert John    Lambeth    1d   846   

1911 census shows her pob as Maidstone Kent

John

Added  21.49 pm --Eva Ellen on 1939 register dob 19.1.1886

and probable death

Deaths Sep 1960   
TURNER    Eva E    74    Lewisham    5d   64
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Friday 16 July 21 23:24 BST (UK)
Another of William's daughters marriage's

Marriages Jun 1905 
Lamkin    Ellen        Lambeth    1d   846     (This is Eva Ellen Lamkin)
TURNER    Herbert John    Lambeth    1d   846   

1911 census shows her pob as Maidstone Kent

John

Added  21.49 pm --Eva Ellen on 1939 register dob 19.1.1886

and probable death

Deaths Sep 1960   
TURNER    Eva E    74    Lewisham    5d   64

Good find John

Herbert John Turner
Rank:   Corporal
Regimental Number:   3419
Regiment or Ship:   London Regiment
Birth Date:   6 Apr 1884
Birth Place:   South Lambeth, S E
Marriage Date:   23 Jun 1905
Marriage Place:   Springfield Hall, Wandsworth Road, S W
Death Date:   25 Jan 1916
Death Place:   Loos
Father:   William John Turner
Mother:   Jessie Rymill
Spouse:   Eva Ellen (dau of William Thomas) , 3 children John, Lucy & Olive
Volume:   Volume 3
UK, De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour, 1914-1919

Herbert John Turner,
Rank:   Cpl
Record Type:   Card
Death Date:   25 Jan 1916
Service Number:   3419,
Corps, Regiment or Unit:   Co Of London 1/24th
Title:   WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description:   Other Ranks Died Turner EA-Turner J
Reference Number:   X1/APW/11571
Next of Kin:   

Ellen Turner,   Widow
Olive Ellen Turner,   Child 16 May 1906
Lucy Minnie Turner,   Child 2 Oct 1907
John Ernest Turner,   Child 12 Jul 1910

The 1907 marriage posted for Minnie Lamkin to Frederick Ashford
witnesses were a Herbert John Turner & Ada Eliza Turner, Ada is Herbertís sister
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Saturday 17 July 21 07:20 BST (UK)
Deaths Mar 1931
Lamkin    Amelia E(Ellen on gro record)    72    Sevenoaks    2a   1327

Sevenoaks Chronicle & Kentish Advertiser dated 20th February 1931.

A detailed account of Amelia's funeral and those attending etc.
Article mentions she is the widow of the late Mr W Lamkin and confirms a lot of Ladyhawk's and my findings.
Available to view on Findmypast.

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Saturday 17 July 21 09:47 BST (UK)
Their daughter Caroline Lamkin marries Archibald Frederick Shepherd in 1913 but then seems to vanish  ???

Do you mean Caroline or Archibald or both?

Believe Archibald appears as married in 1939 dob 27.9.1886 in Wycombe. Died sep q 1961 aged 74 in Wycombe.
Cannot find a birth registration/baptism for Archibald Frederick Sheperd but does appear on 1891/1901 census with parents James and Emma.

John

Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Maid of Kent on Saturday 17 July 21 12:49 BST (UK)
Ive following this thread with great interest as I know Bearsted well. I was wondering what happened to Mabel's sibllings, as only she was with her mother in the workhouse.
William Thomas 1884-1884
Ellen and Minnie were admitted into school 12.5.1893
Caroline I can only find on the 1911
and Elsie died 1898-1898
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Saturday 17 July 21 14:48 BST (UK)
Bingo (I think)

1901 census ref RG13 278 139 21

Joseph Smith  34 Carman born Whitechaple
Ellen Smith 38 born Rochester Kent--as per her pob in 1911 census
Mabel Smith 6 born Stratford. The West Ham birth registration would be a very strong bet.

So in 1901 we have Ellen living with Joseph and daughter, William Lamkin probably (bigomously marrying)Sarah Ann Lee nee' Cox (or if your separeted for 7 years then free to marry?? not sure on that). Their respective partners either die or move on and they reunite for the 1911 census--I just love fairy stories

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 17 July 21 16:38 BST (UK)
Bingo (I think)

1901 census ref RG13 278 139 21

Joseph Smith  34 Carman born Whitechaple
Ellen Smith 38 born Rochester Kent--as per her pob in 1911 census
Mabel Smith 6 born Stratford. The West Ham birth registration would be a very strong bet.


Great find John

I've just found this whilst looking for some other info.....

Surname is LANGLEY on the original entry of 1891 census

Is this the LAMKINís and is Joseph H SMITH the same person as the Joseph Smith on the 1901 census with Ellen & Mabel

Thereís no Lily Amelia born 1881 with William & Amelia  :-\

1891 Piece:   354 Folio:   12 Page 22
59 Paragon Build.
William T LANGLEY   1857 Bearstead, occ Bricklayers labourer
Amelia H    1859 Bearstead
Eva H    1886 Bearstead
Minnie    1888 Wimbledon
Joseph H SMITH   1867 Whitechapel
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QHRM-VN2

1892 London Electoral Register
William Thomas LAMKIN address 59 Paragon Buildings

EDIT to add


1901 census for William Lamkin & Sarah A

RG13; Piece: 441; Folio: 131; Page: 28

William LAMKIN born 1857 occupation is labourer bricklayer
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9C4-1YZ
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Saturday 17 July 21 18:37 BST (UK)
Ladyhawk, another great find. Lily Amelia Langley died mq 1891 aged 9 so will not be on the 1891 census.

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Saturday 17 July 21 18:57 BST (UK)
Positive that Joseph H & Joseph are the same person. Both 1891/1901 have him born Whitechaple.

Beginning to doubt that Caroline Lamkin born 1892 is William's daughter.

Ladyhawk you like a challenge. 1901 census ref 29 127 34. On this is a Caroline Smith aged "about 10" and is a niece. of Elizabeth Holmes. Also there is a Jessie Mary Holmes( jq 1900)who's mmn is Smith.
Is Elizabeth Smith the sister to Joseph H/Joseph Smith. Above these is a William Cox. When William Thomas Lamkin married Sarah Ann Lee nee' Cox her father is recorded as George Cox occ Brewer's Labourer
So is William Cox the brother of George Cox and is he Sarah Ann Lee/Cox uncle. My head is mince at present. Sarah Ann Cox married Edward Lee sq 1871 Bethnal Green, her father George Cox deceased.

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 17 July 21 20:28 BST (UK)
Positive that Joseph H & Joseph are the same person. Both 1891/1901 have him born Whitechaple.

Beginning to doubt that Caroline Lamkin born 1892 is William's daughter.

Ladyhawk you like a challenge. 1901 census ref 29 127 34.

On this is a Caroline Smith aged "about 10" and is a niece. of Elizabeth Holmes. Also there is a Jessie Mary Holmes( jq 1900)who's mmn is Smith.
Is Elizabeth Smith the sister to Joseph H/Joseph Smith. Above these is a William Cox.

When William Thomas Lamkin married Sarah Ann Lee nee' Cox her father is recorded as George Cox occ Brewer's Labourer

So is William Cox the brother of George Cox and is he Sarah Ann Lee/Cox uncle. My head is mince at present. Sarah Ann Cox married Edward Lee sq 1871 Bethnal Green, her father George Cox deceased.



Hi John - this maybe one challenge too far but who knows......

I have just found this - is this the same Sarah Ann?

Marriage 4 Aug 1885 St Peter, Walworth, Southwark
Sarah Ann LEE widow
father George COX (decíd) brewer
Spouse:   George SMITH widower, father William decíd
Witnesses Charles & Agnes Godfrey (Agnes made her mark)

Have a look to see what you think as Sarah Ann Leeís signature looks to be the same as on her 1899 m/c to William Thomas Lamkin
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 17 July 21 20:59 BST (UK)

Beginning to doubt that Caroline Lamkin born 1892 is William's daughter.

1901 census ref 29 127 34.

On this is a Caroline Smith aged "about 10" and is a niece. of Elizabeth Holmes.

Also there is a Jessie Mary Holmes( jq 1900)who's mmn is Smith.

   
Jessie Mary Holmes
Baptism 3 Jun 1900 born 20th March Hampstead St Cuthbert, Camden, England
Father:   Christopher Frederick Holmes, Ostler Mother:   Elizabeth Ann

Marriage    1 Jan 1900 Christ Church, Notting Hill, Kensington and Chelsea
Christopher Frederick Holmes age 23 Ostler
father James, Plater
Spouse:   Elizabeth SMITH 23 father John Jeffery? Smith, bricklayer

Christopher Holmes appears to be with his parents on 1901 census age 24 ĎMí stableman groom
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Saturday 17 July 21 21:16 BST (UK)
Have a look to see what you think as Sarah Ann Leeís signature looks to be the same as on her 1899 m/c to William Thomas Lamkin

In my opinion there's no doubt--but I did get the name Else instead of Eke ;D


John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Tuesday 20 July 21 00:00 BST (UK)
Oh my goodness! This all fantastic stuff!!

I've been offline for a few days. I'll have to catch up on these recent finds tomorrow. Thank you so much!

Something I discovered late the other evening was that the Langley and the Smith families are the same family!...

Edward George Langley is the son of William Kelly Smith and Charlotte Langley. Edward sometimes appears as Edward Smith, sometimes as George Smith and on other records as Edward George Langley. His children all seem to be registered as Langley. (Looks like the family use Langley on BMD and Smith on some Census records.)

I'd love to know what happened to Caroline.

Thanks again! Very much appreciated,
Glen  :)
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Tuesday 20 July 21 08:13 BST (UK)
Hi Glen, Many thanks for getting back to us all, it does happen on occasions that posts are left unanswered. I think you have a lot of info to digest and log down. The Lamkin/Langley/Smith family were an interesting group of people to try and sort out. There are for me 2 unanswered questions. 1, the death of William Thomas Lamkin and 2 the death/possible remarriage of Caroline Lamkin.
If you ever find out about these two please let us know. Have a good day.

John

Added: Glen, with regard to Caroline, one avenue to follow would be her birth certificate that would detail her exact dob, this could help with 1939 register and death if after 1965.

Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Tuesday 20 July 21 08:58 BST (UK)
Good morning John,

I've ordered the birth certs for Mabel and Caroline. The pdf versions from the GRO. I did this a few days ago, so they should be here any day now.

I originally thought Mabel's middle name Smith was in honour of her grandfather (Langley/Smith). However, after reading the latest finds on here, I'm wondering whether it's actually a clue to who her father is! Interestingly, there's no mother's maiden name on the GRO indexes, so I'm expecting there to be no father mentioned. Watch this space.

And the reason I've ordered Caroline's is in hope that her DOB might be 27th Sep (my elusive great grandmother's DOB). I've been searching for her for 18 years now. It's a long shot but she magically appears in 1918, aged 26. It would mean a name change from Caroline to Dorothy so it really is a long shot!!

My mysterious great grandmother is the reason I started this post. Mabel's great granddaughter is a DNA match to my grandmother.

My great grandmother used two different maiden names! Shepherd and Langley. So you can imagine my interest in the Lamkin/Smith/Langley family when I started building their tree last week. Perhaps too much of a coincidence, but at least I know there is a DNA link somehow.

Many thanks again to you both,
Glen
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Tuesday 20 July 21 12:10 BST (UK)
Hi Glen, well done in ordering the 2 certificates. Would you be willing to share the line back from you to what you know and if persons are still alive to just put down initials.

Glen
Mother
Grandmother
Caroline--Great Grand mother.

Where did you find Caroline in 1918 and under what name

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Tuesday 20 July 21 14:47 BST (UK)
Hi John,

Will write more later but here's an old Scavenger Hunt with all the known details on the first page....

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=535847.0

I only know there's a DNA link to the Lamkin \ Langley \ Smith family. And hoping Caroline's birthday is 27th Sep to match my great grandmother's. It's all a long shot but she remains a complete brickwall for now!

Thanks for all your help,
Glen  :)
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Maid of Kent on Tuesday 20 July 21 16:27 BST (UK)
Thank you so much!!
Yes, this seems to be all related to the right family and that is them in the 1911 Census. Thank you!
I've just had a look too and found the following children:

1881 Lily Amelia LANGLEY (Birth and death registered as Langley, however baptism is Lamkin)
1883 Married
1884 William Thomas LAMKIN
1886 Eva Ellen LAMKIN
1888 Minnie LAMKIN
1892 Caroline LAMKIN
1894 Mabel Smith LAMKIN
1898 Elsie LAMKIN

Thanks again,
Glen
On the 1911 census it has William and Ellen living in Bearsted married 28 years (correct) 5 children born, 4 still alive, 1 dead.  you quote 7 children with which I agree, but according to records 3 died and not 1 as is on the census: Lily Amelia in 1891, William Thomas in 1884 and Else in 1898, leaving the four alive Eva Ellen, Minnie, Caroline  and Mabel.  7 children were born but only 5 given on the census. Did William perhaps consider Lily and Mabel not to be his? although they were all baptised as his, cant find the baptism of Caroline and why did he say only 1 had died. This post is intriguing.
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Tuesday 20 July 21 17:18 BST (UK)
Caroline was baptised 28th May 1893 St Paul's Maidstone, dau of William Thomas & Amelia Ellen --occ Labourer, abode 32 Thornhill Place.

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Tuesday 20 July 21 17:26 BST (UK)
Maid of Kent

Looking at William Thomas's Lamkins army record I strongly suspect that Lily was not his daughter


Per the army file he was in Nova Scotia from May 1878 to November 1880, then Gibraltar to December 1880, then South Africa until March 1882, then on "Home" service in the British Isles until his transfer to the Reserve in 1883 and discharge in 1889. As a reservist from 1883 he would be able to lead a civilian life.

The medical record shows that he was in Dublin in 1882

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Wednesday 21 July 21 19:48 BST (UK)
The two birth records have arrived.

No father recorded for Mabel. Her name is recorded as Mabel Smith Lamkin because the mother's name is recorded as Ellen Amelia Lamkin. I've come across this before, whereby the mother would include the father's surname as a middle name, when he can not / will not be recorded.

And incredibly, Caroline Lamkin's DOB matches my elusive great grandmother Dorothy Shepherd / AKA Dorothy Langley!!! I wonder whether this is her and could Caroline and Dorothy be the same person?!

I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again for your invaluable help!

I need to digest all of your finds properly and add them to the Lamkin/Smith/Langley family tree that I've started.

Thanks,
Glen  :)
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Wednesday 21 July 21 20:20 BST (UK)
Quote

And incredibly, Caroline Lamkin's DOB matches my elusive great grandmother Dorothy Shepherd / AKA Dorothy Langley!!! I wonder whether this is her and could Caroline and Dorothy be the same person?!

Glen, if it is not her I will give up family history.

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Wednesday 21 July 21 20:42 BST (UK)
Haha! John, it's really looking like it's her, isn't it!

Clues from the records so far, when comparing Caroline and Dorothy:

1. DOB matches
2. Father's forename is William
3. He's deceased before 1929 (when Dorothy married)
4. Shepherd and Langley are the two maiden names Dorothy used; Shepherd was Caroline's married name and Langley was her mother's maiden name
5. Dorothy, we were told, grew up with an aunt in Blue Bell Hill; Caroline was in nearby Maidstone and Bearsted and indeed appears with an aunt in the old census
6. Dorothy first appears in 1916-1917 (in London); Caroline marries Shepherd in 1913 and then vanishes (Admittedly not yet done an extensive search for the vanishing Caroline, however her husband Archibald Shepherd seems to be with someone else in later records)
7. This would make my grandmother and Mabel's great granddaughter "1/2 1C2R", which the amount of shared DNA would support

Looking highly likely, isn't it!

Thanks again!
Glen
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Wednesday 21 July 21 21:05 BST (UK)
Sorry to be a pain Glen, but it was annoying me re William Thomas Lamkins death and here it is in all it's glory

LANKIN, WILLIAM  THOMAS     65 
GRO Reference: 1922  S Quarter in MAIDSTONE  Volume 02A  Page 798

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Wednesday 21 July 21 21:33 BST (UK)
Thanks John.

I'll have to tell my grandmother that we may have finally solved the mystery of her mother!

 :)
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Maid of Kent on Wednesday 21 July 21 21:38 BST (UK)
Found Caroline on 1901 census

31, John street Maidstone.
Herbert Hows 31 Joiner Machinist born Maidstone
Alice Hows 32 born Rochester wife
Herbert 4 son Maidstone
Jessie A, 3 daughter Maidstone
Jessie Langley sister-in-law 23 worker in Paper Mill
Caroline Lamkin niece 8 Kennington London
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Wednesday 21 July 21 21:48 BST (UK)
Thank you very much for that! So, Caroline was living with two aunts in 1901 and then with her aunt Minnie in 1911.

We have photos of Dorothy as a child and as a young woman. I'll have to trace the descendants of Caroline's aunts and see whether they recognise anyone!

It'll also be interesting to see what Dorothy's place of birth is next year in the 1921 census.

 :)
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Maid of Kent on Wednesday 21 July 21 21:53 BST (UK)
Alice Langley married Herbert Howes in Maidstone in September 1894 2a 1280
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Wednesday 21 July 21 21:55 BST (UK)
Glen - thank you for updating us on the birth certificates :) Please keep us posted if you discover more

Maid of Kent - great find for Caroline on 1901 census surname was transcribed as TOMKIN on Anc*y  ::)
Piece:   767 Folio:   71 Page Number:   27
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: johnhood on Wednesday 21 July 21 22:18 BST (UK)
Really good teamwork all, well done

John
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Sunday 25 July 21 02:00 BST (UK)
Thanks again everyone!

I've shared the news with my grandmother and the rest of the family. My grandmother is 87 and was fascinated by all what we'd found! She said there were never any relatives of her mother's mentioned. Any relatives known to her were from her father's side.

I'm now going to trace any living descendants of the Lamkin\Langley\Smith siblings and share the childhood photos with them that were taken in Maidstone and see if they recognise anyone by any chance!

Thank you for all your help,
Glen  :)
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: BenRalph on Sunday 25 July 21 21:09 BST (UK)
I read thr Scavenger Hunt a few years ago and it's so good to know it's possibly been solved.

Well done.

I hope your grandma is very happy.
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Monday 26 July 21 15:47 BST (UK)
Archibald Frederick Shepherd's death is registered under two names: Archibald and also Arthur.

Interestingly, his burial record is Arthur.

So, I've re-checked the birth records and I believe his birth is probably Arthur Frederick Shephard. (Shephard spelt slightly differently, aswell as the different first name)
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: Ladyhawk on Tuesday 27 July 21 10:00 BST (UK)
Archibald Frederick Shepherd's death is registered under two names: Archibald and also Arthur.

Interestingly, his burial record is Arthur.

So, I've re-checked the birth records and I believe his birth is probably Arthur Frederick Shephard. (Shephard spelt slightly differently, aswell as the different first name)

Is this the birth record you think might be Archibald's?

SHEPHARD, ARTHUR  FREDERICK SHEPHARD    mmn HARE 
GRO Reference: 1886  D Quarter in BARNET  Volume 03A  Page 241

Possible parents marriage

Jun 1875   
HARE    Emma        Amersham    3a   551    
SHEPHERD James        Amersham    3a   551

James Shepherd Single age 34 father William
Marriage 01 May 1875 Beaconsfield, Buckingham
Spouse:   Emma Hare age 21 father James

There is this 1890 baptism (might be a late baptism) looking at the original it appears to be the wrong image on Anc*y so can't check to see if the birth year is 1886  ???

Archie Frederick Shephard
Baptism 30 Mar 1890 Little Stanmore, Harrow
Father:   James Shephard Mother:    Emma
also baptism of Ethel Amelia Shephard on same day/place

1891 Piece:   1001 Folio:   115 page 19
James Shepherd   27
Emma Shepherd   28
Annie Shepherd   15
Rosie Shepherd   13
William Shepherd   10
Archibald Shepherd   5 Finchley, London
Ethel Shepherd   1

Emma SHEPHERD, widow of 1 Prospect Cottages Woodburn Town Buckinghamshire
Died 20 April 1935 Probate 25 May to Archibald Frederick SHEPHERD general labourer and Margaret May Rogers (wife of Harry)
Title: Re: Marriage - Maidstone - 1915 (Stevens & Smith)
Post by: -Glen- on Tuesday 27 July 21 14:40 BST (UK)
Thanks Ladyhawk. Yes, I think that's him.

I'm going to trace any living Shepherd/Shephard descendants, and also any Lamkin/Langley/Smith family descendants, in the hope that one of them knows what became of Caroline.

I shall also share with them, the childhood photos that we have of Dorothy in Maidstone and see whether they recognise anyone!

I'll keep you posted,
Glen  :)