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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 15 July 21 20:16 BST (UK)
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I have been searching the St Andrew & Jesmond Cemetery (FamilySearch) today on behalf of someone I know and happened upon a burial for a Daniel McCarthy who was buried there in May 1860. In the remarks column is the info that he was a soldier found in river. He is recorded as age 39.
Quite a sad end so I have added him to Find A Grave for any family descendant who might be looking for him.
I thought I would add a postem too. However, I see from the GRO/Freebmd that the only Daniel McCarthy age 39 from this period was registered in Whitechapel.
This seems quite a coincidence to have two people of this name and age dying at this time.
I thought he might have died in Whitechapel and his body brought back to perhaps the family area of Newcastle and I have added this as a postem with a question mark.
Now I think I may have jumped the gun as a free search of the newspapers seems to show that he was found in the Tyne - I haven't seen full article. (Also his address on burial register is 'Sandgate'.)
Why is he not registered in this area, I wonder? Surely, it can't have anything to do with being in the river (offland)? I have a Great x 3 Grandfather who drowned in the Tyne but he was still registered in this area.
I am just puzzled about what is going on here .. I will correct my Freebmd postem if need be.
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is this the article you have found?
Durham County Advertiser 25 May 1860, age 5 col 6
Boo
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If he was found in the Tyne, its highly unlikely (if not impossible)his death would be registered in Whitechapel?
Boo
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Many thanks Boo.
Yes, Boo that is what I would have thought. I am puzzled because I can't see a registration at Newcastle upon Tyne and yet strangely there is one for a Daniel McCarthy age 39 (also 39 in burial register at St Andrew Cemetery, Newcastle) in Whitechapel. ???
It seems a bit of a coincidence. ???
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To the best of my knowledge deaths were registered in the district they occurred.
Even stretching my imagination to its fullest limits I really cant see that the body of a man who died in Whitechapel was washed up in the Tyne.
Can't explain why there is no death reg in Newcastle, though errors/ omissions in the indexes did happen, but I do think its one of those random co-incidences of a very common first name/ surname combination with a similar birth year.
A lot more detailed research (military records/ Irish baptisms/ census returns etc) would be needed before I'd connect the two.
Boo
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Yes, perhaps I might have jumped the gun here but it is puzzling ..
Same name, age, death quarter. I have never come acr oss such death coincidence before.
Oh, well at least I have put question marks on my postems but I agree in retrospect I may have jumped the gun.
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This looks like your Whitechapel man
Burial, 6 May 1860 at London & Tower Hamlets Cemetery
Daniel McCarthy aged 39, abode Frying Pan Alley Spitalfields
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I've landed on this posting because I have a Welsh born Daniel McCarthy living in Newcastle. Newcastle being a magnet due to the work offered in shipping, railway and coal mining.
So sad to see the demise of this veteran soldier. RIP
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Yes, perhaps I might have jumped the gun here but it is puzzling ..
Same name, age, death quarter. I have never come acr oss such death coincidence before.
Oh, well at least I have put question marks on my postems but I agree in retrospect I may have jumped the gun.
to put it into context, I just searched Cork (where the newspaper report said he was born) baptisms in 1821 - the approx year of birth for this man, in Cork and got 112 results.
Though not all will have ended up in the army or indeed in England, a fair few may well have. So it is a reasonably common combination of birth year, first name and surname.
Boo
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Many thanks Jen for this.
I have slapped my wrists for jumping the gun Boo ;) and have now added an update correction - this might help someone. Still puzzling no death reg at Newcastle.
I agree, Rena that it is sad that a veteran soldier ended up in the river. R.I.P. from me too, poor man. Hopefully at least this post will help someone find out he is at St Andrew's and his cause of death since there seems to be no registration.
Thanks again for help in getting to the bottom of this.
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The nearest I can see is this:
Daniel Carly 40yrs
Newcastle upon Tyne 1860 June quarter vol 10b pg 34
I can’t see any other reference to him.
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Thanks for trying to find him Heywood.
I thought death would have to be registered before burial but perhaps not. ???
Or could he have had an alias? ???
He is not even my ancestor but I can't help wondering about this puzzle and would like to get this info for the St Andrew's Cemetery Find A Grave entry .. perhaps his Family line might be looking for him or might look for him one day. He may not have a memorial but it will still no doubt be helpful for them to know his final resting place.
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I thought death would have to be registered before burial but perhaps not. ???
Or could he have had an alias? ???
As he was found in the river, there would have been an inquest. The Coroner can give permission for burial prior to the inquest being concluded and the death being officially registered - sometimes marked in burial registers as 'By Coroner's order'.
Boo
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Thanks Boo for this.
There is no mention of the Coroner in this particular burial entry though.
Order was given by a John Williams .. perhaps he was the coroner? ???
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There was an inquest.
Conducted by J T Hoyle at the Dead House
Several reports of the affair in the papers, including inquest report in the Newcastle Daily Chronicle, 22 May 1860
The nearest I can see is this:
Daniel Carly 40yrs
Newcastle upon Tyne 1860 June quarter vol 10b pg 34
I think heywood has found the right one.
Some of the other names with the same GRO ref, 10b 34, are in the north east newspapers, including other inquests, accidents. More than a coincidence?
i.e. Michael Dugan
Newcastle Guardian, 19 May 1860
On Tuesday evening an inquest was held at the Dead House, Newcastle, by J. T. Hoyle, Esq., coroner, on the body of Michael Dugan, which had been found in the Tyne. The body had been identified as that of a labourer named Michael Dugan, about 30 years age.
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Thanks Boo for this.
There is no mention of the Coroner in this particular burial entry though.
Order was given by a John Williams .. perhaps he was the coroner? ???
I 'did' say 'sometimes' :-)
I have seen entries that did say it and others (where I know the registration was done was by the coroner 'after' the burial) where there is no mention.
Boo
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Link to cemetery register
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3VC-K9S8-D
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One from the Newcastle Courant, 25 May 1860
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One by one they all go offline.
Oh well, so will I.
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I think that between heywood and jonw65 they have found enough evidence to say his death was registered in Newcastle.
The Death reg that heywood found in Q2 1860, though its not 'quite' the same name is near enough to have perhaps been mistranscribed into the index
and the work done by jonw65 finding inquest reports for people on the same page, year and quarter in the index lends extra weight to these all being registered by the Coroner's office at the same time.
Great work, both of you!
As per, good though it all sounds, only the death cert would confirm its the same man. Given the lack of a registration unless we accept the name discrepancy, the Newcastle Registrar's Office 'may' check the register against the details you supply - though they aren't usually as helpful as other registrar's offices are in the North East.
Shy bairns get nowt though, so its worth an ask.
Boo
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I couldn't find the death registration of "my" Daniel McCarthy and then took a chance that he was the Denis Daniel McCarthy of the right age who died in Newcastle.
It was a relief to receive the snail mail copy death cert to discover that he was indeed the correct one.
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I think that between heywood and jonw65 they have found enough evidence to say his death was registered in Newcastle.
The Death reg that heywood found in Q2 1860, though its not 'quite' the same name is near enough to have perhaps been mistranscribed into the index
and the work done by jonw65 finding inquest reports for people on the same page, year and quarter in the index lends extra weight to these all being registered by the Coroner's office at the same time.
Great work, both of you!
Seconded :)
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Order was given by a John Williams .. perhaps he was the coroner? ???
In this case I think the column 'Order given by' simply lists the name of the person who actually arranged the burial. Looking through other pages of this register shows that very many of the surnames in that column are the same as that of the person being buried.
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I see a lot has been going on since this morning ..
Yes, I agree that between Heywood and Jon I think enough evidence is there to indicate that the death was registered. Brilliant work! :D
Thank you so much! You are stars! Jon in particular take a bow! :D
I will be updating the Find A Grave entry this coming up weekend.
Thanks so much too for showing the articles. I presume the 'dead house' would be where the river accident deceased would be taken.
My Grt x 3 Grandfather also drowned in the Tyne like this after a 'liquor' night out at the pub and even being a Tyne Pilot' was not enough to save him. :'(
That is good that at least Daniel got a decent send off with military honours. :)
I will do the 'belt 'n' braces approach' ;) and enquire further over the weekend about the name discrepancy Boo. It might come to nought but as you say 'shy bairns get nowt'.
Thank you once again to all who have helped on this thread, it has all been very much appreciated. 👏
That is good that you have the correct death cert for your ancestor, Rena. Hopefully, you might be able to find his resting place too now, either through FamilySearch or for free via the local studies using the form. :)