RootsChat.Com

Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: David Hutchinson on Sunday 18 July 21 08:41 BST (UK)

Title: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Sunday 18 July 21 08:41 BST (UK)
Hi,  I was wondering whether anybody has any knowledge re the death/burial of a Joseph Dougan, born March 1886 in Belfast.

I know that he was a career soldier, enlisting in the British Army in 1908 in Belfast and separating in 1929.  He served for many years at the Garrison on Gibraltar, and also in India.  He also served in France as a gunner during WW1.

Unfortunately, I cannot locate any information on him after he left the army in 1929 and we cannot identify any information regarding his death or burial site.

I know it is a long shot but just thought I would throw it out there in case somebody has come across him during family history searches etc.

Thanks.
Title: Re: JOSEPH DOUGAN, BORN MARCH 1886, BELFAST
Post by: Kiltaglassan on Sunday 18 July 21 10:32 BST (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat, David  :)

Don't know anything about his military record... maybe some of our military experts might help.

However, just linking some records for others to peruse.
Birth 1886   MMN Mullins
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02606/1962412.pdf

1901 census
Residents of a house 4 in Albert Place (Smithfield, Antrim).
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Smithfield/Albert_Place/972456/

Best of luck with your research  ;D

KG

Title: Re: JOSEPH DOUGAN, BORN MARCH 1886, BELFAST
Post by: heywood on Sunday 18 July 21 10:38 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat  :)

When you mention ‘separating’ do you mean from his family?

There are  private trees, one is yours I  think, which have a death but no details in 1937.
I think one or two mention 1941 also. Have you checked deaths for those periods?

Heywood
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Monday 19 July 21 01:50 BST (UK)
Many thanks for the replies.

The separation mentioned in my first post was from the army.

There is a bit of a mystery surround Joseph Dougan.  Surviving family members (all grandchildren) were led to he died about 1937 but I can find no evidence of it.  I have found an entry of a Joseph Dougan dying in Royal Victoria Hospital on 12 Jan 1941 and, although there are some positive points, I am unable to confirm this is the correct Joseph Dougan.  I am also unable to locate the burial record of the Joseph Dougan who died on 12 Jan 1941.  My 'Ancestry.com' tree currently has the 1941 death listed as a possibility.  All the 1937 listed deaths have originated from the unsubstantiated family 'belief'.

The birth record link below on Irish Genealogy shows a DOB of 25 March 1886.  His baptism record though (obtained from the Church) shows he was baptised on 21 March 1886 with a DOB of 18 March 1886.  Just to muddy the waters even further, I have possession of some of his military documents where his DOB is listed as 4 March 1886.  I am inclined to lea towards the baptism record.

It seems that Joseph Dougan's wife and children did not speak about him at all to his grandchildren over the years and there is some speculation mounting now that he may have left his wife and family in the late 1930s.

As I say, I have put together quite a good timeline on him now from birth until when he left the army in 1929.  I also just found a record in the Belfast Street Directory which showed him at the family home (Donegall Gardens, Belfast) in 1932.  Whatever happened to him (either died or ran out on the family) seems to have occurred between 1932 and 1937.

Any further assistance is most appreciated.

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: garstonite on Monday 19 July 21 10:15 BST (UK)
who did he marry and what were his childrens names - maybe we can find a familytree for one of them ?
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: garstonite on Monday 19 July 21 10:24 BST (UK)
Hi,  I was wondering whether anybody has any knowledge re the death/burial of a Joseph Dougan, born March 1886 in Belfast.

I know that he was a career soldier, enlisting in the British Army in 1908 in Belfast and separating in 1929.  He served for many years at the Garrison on Gibraltar, and also in India.  He also served in France as a gunner during WW1.

Unfortunately, I cannot locate any information on him after he left the army in 1929 and we cannot identify any information regarding his death or burial site.

I know it is a long shot but just thought I would throw it out there in case somebody has come across him during family history searches etc.

Thanks.
unless this record is wrong - 10 years out with his age and his birth - it looks like there are TWO Joseph Dougan who served in Gibralta ??

any advice welcome - I am a little stumped with this - if one said aged 15 - born 1886  OR  aged 25 born 1896 - I would accept a Mistranscribed record - but stating 15 AND b 1896 - it looks to be transcribed properly .
I wonder if your Joseph Dougan b 1886 did serve in Gibralta ???

..............................................
Event Type:   
Census
Name:   
Joseph Dougan
Age:   
15
Event Date:   
1911
Event Place:   
Europe
Event Place (Original):   
, Europa Gibraltar, Overseas Military,
Sub-District Number:   
21
Enumeration District:   
20
District Number:   
641
Birth Year (Estimated):   
1896
Birthplace:   
Belfast, County Antrim
Marital Status:   
Single
Occupation:   
NIL
Document Type:   
35
................is any one else stumped by this record ???
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: heywood on Monday 19 July 21 10:45 BST (UK)
It reads 25 yrs, garstonite.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 19 July 21 11:14 BST (UK)
Quote
As I say, I have put together quite a good timeline on him now from birth until when he left the army in 1929.  I also just found a record in the Belfast Street Directory which showed him at the family home (Donegall Gardens, Belfast) in 1932.  Whatever happened to him (either died or ran out on the family) seems to have occurred between 1932 and 1937.

Remember that city directory are compiled, usually, the previous year so perhaps from 1931 onwards. However, sometimes old information was carried forward from previous issue so even 1931 is merely a guess.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: heywood on Monday 19 July 21 12:49 BST (UK)
How was his wife described on her death certificate?  Was she a wife or a widow?

Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Tuesday 20 July 21 02:30 BST (UK)
who did he marry and what were his childrens names - maybe we can find a familytree for one of them ?

Yes, he married Elizabeth Ann Bruce on Gibraltar on 7 June 1913.  Children were:

Frederick Joseph Dougan, born 11 Sept 1913 on Gibraltar, died 10 Sept 1979 in Reading UK (was visiting there from Ireland).

Eileen Elizabeth Rose Dougan, born 10 May 1915 on Gibraltar and died 28 Sept 1915 on Gibraltar at only 4 months of age.  She is buried on Gibraltar.

Edward William Dougan (my wife's father), born 26 Oct 1916 on Gibraltar.  Died 5 July 2012 here in Australia.

I am subscribed to Ancestry.com and have searched other family trees but none have proved fruitful.  Most other family trees for this family have been copied over from others that had limited or unsupported information.  Mine is the most detailed from all the ones I have seen so far. 

If you are able to locate other family trees in existence, that would be great.

Thanks,

David

Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Tuesday 20 July 21 02:31 BST (UK)
Hi,  I was wondering whether anybody has any knowledge re the death/burial of a Joseph Dougan, born March 1886 in Belfast.

I know that he was a career soldier, enlisting in the British Army in 1908 in Belfast and separating in 1929.  He served for many years at the Garrison on Gibraltar, and also in India.  He also served in France as a gunner during WW1.

Unfortunately, I cannot locate any information on him after he left the army in 1929 and we cannot identify any information regarding his death or burial site.

I know it is a long shot but just thought I would throw it out there in case somebody has come across him during family history searches etc.

Thanks.
unless this record is wrong - 10 years out with his age and his birth - it looks like there are TWO Joseph Dougan who served in Gibralta ??

any advice welcome - I am a little stumped with this - if one said aged 15 - born 1886  OR  aged 25 born 1896 - I would accept a Mistranscribed record - but stating 15 AND b 1896 - it looks to be transcribed properly .
I wonder if your Joseph Dougan b 1886 did serve in Gibralta ???

..............................................
Event Type:   
Census
Name:   
Joseph Dougan
Age:   
15
Event Date:   
1911
Event Place:   
Europe
Event Place (Original):   
, Europa Gibraltar, Overseas Military,
Sub-District Number:   
21
Enumeration District:   
20
District Number:   
641
Birth Year (Estimated):   
1896
Birthplace:   
Belfast, County Antrim
Marital Status:   
Single
Occupation:   
NIL
Document Type:   
35
................is any one else stumped by this record ???


I have this census report.  It does relate to the correct person and the age in the record has incorrectly been recorded as '15' instead of '25'.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Tuesday 20 July 21 02:35 BST (UK)
Quote
As I say, I have put together quite a good timeline on him now from birth until when he left the army in 1929.  I also just found a record in the Belfast Street Directory which showed him at the family home (Donegall Gardens, Belfast) in 1932.  Whatever happened to him (either died or ran out on the family) seems to have occurred between 1932 and 1937.

Remember that city directory are compiled, usually, the previous year so perhaps from 1931 onwards. However, sometimes old information was carried forward from previous issue so even 1931 is merely a guess.

Thanks for this info.

Is there any way of accessing the same information (ie residents of particular addresses) that have not been put online?  For example, I see that the Belfast Street Directory site includes 1932, 1939 and 1943 online but I would love to have the same information for various other years inbetween.

Is this information available anywhere?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Tuesday 20 July 21 02:51 BST (UK)
How was his wife described on her death certificate?  Was she a wife or a widow?


She was definitely a widow at the time of her death in 1967 or 1968 as she lived with my wife's family for the last 30 years of her life.

We actually have possession of an original document she completed in 1937 when she was applying to get a copy of her birth record.  In the document, she states she wanted the birth record so she could apply for the widow's pension.  This obviously suggests that he died in 1937 or earlier.

Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate any record of his death/burial in 1937 or prior.  Speculation is mounting that he may not have died but way have abandoned the family, and his wife sought the pension as she had no other means of support.  It is not known whether she ever got the pension.

I did actually find a death record for a Joseph Dougan who died in Royal Victoria Hospital on 12 January 1941.  There are some aspects of this person that matches 'our' Joseph Dougan but there are others that raise doubts.  Anyway, I have also been unable to locate this person's burial records.  I have attached a copy of this particular death record in case anybody has any ideas on how to locate his burial record.  Such a burial record would assist to confirm or eliminate him as 'our' Joseph Dougan.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 20 July 21 08:47 BST (UK)
Is this your Joseph?
Northern Whig, 6 Jan.1917:  … THE MILITARY MEDAL, Joseph Dougan, Royal Irish Fusiliers, has been awarded the Military Medal and parchment certificate. The wording on the latter is follows:—“Private Joseph Dougan, Royal Irish Fusiliers, being storeman to the …

The death certificate is very helpful and opens up a few possibilities. Checking the home address on that death certificate using available directories from Lennon Wyle site-
Ava Dr.- (1932- Ava Dr. not listed)
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1939_2.htm 42. Dougan, Joseph, storeman
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1943_2.htm 42. Dougan, Mrs. M.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1947_2.htm  42. Dougan, Mrs. M.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1951_2.htm 42. Dougan, Mrs. M.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1960_2.htm 42. Dougan, Mrs. M.

I was able to get snippets from newspapers which show Mrs. M. Dougan to be Minnie and a daughter Dorothy mentioned-
Belfast Telegraph, 13 Jan.1941: DOUGAN—January 12, 1941 at Royal Victoria Hospital, Joseph,  dearly-loved husband of Minnie DOUGAN, 42 Ava Drive. Interment notice later.
(acknowledgment published 20 Jan.)
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Jan.1942:  DOUGAN—In loving memory of my beloved husband, Joseph DOUGAN, died 12th January, 1941. Lovingly remembered by his sorrowing Wife and Daughter. Minnie and Dorothy Dougan, 42 Ava Drive.
(also 12 Jan.1943)
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Jan.1945: … memory of my dear husband, Joseph Dougan, died January 12, 1941. Ever remembered by his loving Wife and Daughter, Minnie and Dorothy Dougan, 42 Ave Drive. Time cannot dim the face we loved …—ln loving memory of my dear husband and our dear father.

Couldn't see Joseph, Minnie/Mary, etc., or Dorothy in PRONI's Will Extracts.

I checked GRONI for marriage without finding any in Belfast 1921-1941. Also deaths for female Dougans (several possibilities below but nothing conclusive & she could have died after 1969 or outside N.I.)-
-Mary Dougan (age 82) died 15 Feb.1963 Belfast district
-Wilhelmina Dougan (age 58) died 13 Jan.1965 Belfast dist.
-Minnie Dougan (age 67) died 1 Mar.1967 Magherafelt dist.
-Minnie Dougan (age 85) died 6 Nov.1969 Belfast dist.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 20 July 21 09:06 BST (UK)
You could try asking for look up of 42 Ava Street from 1970 directory here- it's possible either Minnie or daughter Dorothy still there.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=711198.0

Or 1954 directory here-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=742886.0
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Wednesday 21 July 21 08:43 BST (UK)

I was able to get snippets from newspapers which show Mrs. M. Dougan to be Minnie and a daughter Dorothy mentioned-
Belfast Telegraph, 13 Jan.1941: DOUGAN—January 12, 1941 at Royal Victoria Hospital, Joseph,  dearly-loved husband of Minnie DOUGAN, 42 Ava Drive. Interment notice later.
(acknowledgment published 20 Jan.)
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Jan.1942:  DOUGAN—In loving memory of my beloved husband, Joseph DOUGAN, died 12th January, 1941. Lovingly remembered by his sorrowing Wife and Daughter. Minnie and Dorothy Dougan, 42 Ava Drive.
(also 12 Jan.1943)
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Jan.1945: … memory of my dear husband, Joseph Dougan, died January 12, 1941. Ever remembered by his loving Wife and Daughter, Minnie and Dorothy Dougan, 42 Ave Drive. Time cannot dim the face we loved …—ln loving memory of my dear husband and our dear father.

Couldn't see Joseph, Minnie/Mary, etc., or Dorothy in PRONI's Will Extracts.

I checked GRONI for marriage without finding any in Belfast 1921-1941. Also deaths for female Dougans (several possibilities below but nothing conclusive & she could have died after 1969 or outside N.I.)-
-Mary Dougan (age 82) died 15 Feb.1963 Belfast district
-Wilhelmina Dougan (age 58) died 13 Jan.1965 Belfast dist.
-Minnie Dougan (age 67) died 1 Mar.1967 Magherafelt dist.
-Minnie Dougan (age 85) died 6 Nov.1969 Belfast dist.
[/quote]


Many thanks for all the work you have done for me.

The Joseph Dougan you have listed above from the Irish Fusiliers is NOT my Joseph Dougan.

I did have the information from the Belfast Street Directory but I was not able to identify the Mrs M Dougan.

In particular though, your newspaper information has been invaluable and positively identifies the wife and daughter of the 42 Ava Drive Joseph Dougan.  It does not rule out the possibility that 'my' Joseph Dougan remarried (to Minnie) after abandoning his first family but I may be able to further this line of enquiry by identifying the age of the daughter.  Going by this Joseph Dougan's age though, it is unlikely (although not impossible of course) that Dorothy would only be a few years old, which would be the case if he left his first family about 1937, as suspected.  I shall do some more homework on this aspect.

I like the look of the Minnie Dougan who died in 1969 as the name and place are consistent and her age puts her birth in a similar period to thast of her husband who was 56 years old in 1941.

Ruling out the Ava Drive Joseph Dougan will be good progress in one way, but disappointing in another as it puts me back to square one 😀.  What happened to my Joseph Dougan??????  The mystery continues 😀😀😀.

May I ask how you access all the newspaper records?  Is there a subscription site available to do this?

Thank you once again for your assistance.  You really have been a greatr help.

Regards,

David

Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Wednesday 21 July 21 08:44 BST (UK)
You could try asking for look up of 42 Ava Street from 1970 directory here- it's possible either Minnie or daughter Dorothy still there.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=711198.0

Or 1954 directory here-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=742886.0

Done .... and thanks again.

The 1970 one will be interesting as it may add support to the Minnie who died in 1969 being the correct person.

David
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Wednesday 21 July 21 08:48 BST (UK)
Is this your Joseph?
Northern Whig, 6 Jan.1917:  … THE MILITARY MEDAL, Joseph Dougan, Royal Irish Fusiliers, has been awarded the Military Medal and parchment certificate. The wording on the latter is follows:—“Private Joseph Dougan, Royal Irish Fusiliers, being storeman to the …

The death certificate is very helpful and opens up a few possibilities. Checking the home address on that death certificate using available directories from Lennon Wyle site-
Ava Dr.- (1932- Ava Dr. not listed)
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1939_2.htm 42. Dougan, Joseph, storeman
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1943_2.htm 42. Dougan, Mrs. M.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1947_2.htm  42. Dougan, Mrs. M.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1951_2.htm 42. Dougan, Mrs. M.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1960_2.htm 42. Dougan, Mrs. M.

I was able to get snippets from newspapers which show Mrs. M. Dougan to be Minnie and a daughter Dorothy mentioned-
Belfast Telegraph, 13 Jan.1941: DOUGAN—January 12, 1941 at Royal Victoria Hospital, Joseph,  dearly-loved husband of Minnie DOUGAN, 42 Ava Drive. Interment notice later.
(acknowledgment published 20 Jan.)
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Jan.1942:  DOUGAN—In loving memory of my beloved husband, Joseph DOUGAN, died 12th January, 1941. Lovingly remembered by his sorrowing Wife and Daughter. Minnie and Dorothy Dougan, 42 Ava Drive.
(also 12 Jan.1943)
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Jan.1945: … memory of my dear husband, Joseph Dougan, died January 12, 1941. Ever remembered by his loving Wife and Daughter, Minnie and Dorothy Dougan, 42 Ave Drive. Time cannot dim the face we loved …—ln loving memory of my dear husband and our dear father.

Couldn't see Joseph, Minnie/Mary, etc., or Dorothy in PRONI's Will Extracts.

I checked GRONI for marriage without finding any in Belfast 1921-1941. Also deaths for female Dougans (several possibilities below but nothing conclusive & she could have died after 1969 or outside N.I.)-
-Mary Dougan (age 82) died 15 Feb.1963 Belfast district
-Wilhelmina Dougan (age 58) died 13 Jan.1965 Belfast dist.
-Minnie Dougan (age 67) died 1 Mar.1967 Magherafelt dist.
-Minnie Dougan (age 85) died 6 Nov.1969 Belfast dist.

Many thanks aghadowey for all the work you have done for me.

The Joseph Dougan you have listed above from the Irish Fusiliers is NOT my Joseph Dougan.

I did have the information from the Belfast Street Directory but I was not able to identify the Mrs M Dougan.

In particular though, your newspaper information has been invaluable and positively identifies the wife and daughter of the 42 Ava Drive Joseph Dougan.  It does not rule out the possibility that 'my' Joseph Dougan remarried (to Minnie) after abandoning his first family but I may be able to further this line of enquiry by identifying the age of the daughter.  Going by this Joseph Dougan's age though, it is unlikely (although not impossible of course) that Dorothy would only be a few years old, which would be the case if he left his first family about 1937, as suspected.  I shall do some more homework on this aspect.

I like the look of the Minnie Dougan who died in 1969 as the name and place are consistent and her age puts her birth in a similar period to thast of her husband who was 56 years old in 1941.

Ruling out the Ava Drive Joseph Dougan will be good progress in one way, but disappointing in another as it puts me back to square one 😀.  What happened to my Joseph Dougan??????  The mystery continues 😀😀😀.

May I ask how you access all the newspaper records?  Is there a subscription site available to do this?

Thank you once again for your assistance.  You really have been a greatr help.

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 21 July 21 08:54 BST (UK)
The newspaper snippets are from FindMyPast Irish newspapers (subscription site) but my changing the search terms slightly in multiple searches you can usually tease out relevant details.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search/irish-newspapers

Regarding the age of Dorothy Dougan- she could be a daughter born to Minnie before marriage/supposed marriage that assumed the surname of Joseph Dougan which would make her older.
The 1969 death for Minnie Dougan is probably my 'favourite' too but since she was 85 years old she might have died in a nursing home in which case the informant might not be daughter Dorothy (if she died in hospital the informant might not be a relative either).

Have another idea for you to try and will send PM.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: scotmum on Wednesday 21 July 21 10:50 BST (UK)
42 Ava Drive was listed for sale in newspaper February 1969.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: scotmum on Wednesday 21 July 21 11:02 BST (UK)
Some further snippets in case helpful. In acknowledgement notice in Belfast newspaper after Joseph's death,  Minnie mentioned No 2 King's Bridge LDV (local defence volunteers?),  Old Contemptables Association (likely The British Expeditionary Force which served in Flanders) and the British Legion. Also,  Minnie placed an acknowledgement in a Ballymena newspaper, thanking kind friends and neighbours and mentioning an Orange lodge and a Royal Black preceptory.

This was not the first time Minnie had placed a notice in a Ballymena paper. In 1940, she placed an In Memorium for an aunt, Mary Jane Mailey.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 21 July 21 21:15 BST (UK)
Well, I think I found Minnie this morning but wasn't online since we had thunder all afternoon- no rain, just thunder. Anyway found Minnie but haven't sorted it all out yet.

Starting with this death notice that scotmum mentioned earlier-
Ballymena Observer, 24 May 1940: MAILEY—In loving memory of my dear aunt, Mary Jane Mailey, who died 21st May, 1939. A token of remembrance To one I shall never forget. Minnie Dougan, 42 Ava Drive, Belfast.
I then found Mary Jane Mailey in 1901 and 1911 census (once I looked up age at death on GRONI) with father in 1901 and other relatives in both 1901 & 1911. No Minnie with her unfortunately but the more I searched the more I could sort out.
Skipping ahead to another In Memorium notice for 1st anniversary of Mary Jane's death-
Ballymena Observer, 24 May 1940: MAILEY —In loving memory of my dear mother, Mary J. Mailey who was called home the 21st May, 1939, and was interred the New Cemetery. Forever with the Lord. J. Henry 51 Warden Street.
By this point I'd already found 2 illegitimate daughters of Mary Jane Mailey-
1) Lizzie married William McCartney
2) Jane/Jeanie married Thomas Henry

I found Minnie in 1901 and 1911 not far away but not sure who her parents were (possibly an unmarried sister of Mary Jane's who had an illegitimate daughter Agnes).
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Ballymena_and_Town_and_Urban_District_of_Ballymena/Queen_Street/927098/ (Minnie Mealie)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Ballymena_No__3_Urban/Queen_s_Street/118255/ (Minnie Malie)
In 1901 she's 16 but had aged 6 years by 1911 although still a servant in the same household!

Now what I haven't found yet-
1) birth of a daughter Dorothy (online births only up to 1921 for N.I. counties)
2) marriage to a Joseph Dougan (which is really the most important missing bit to see who this Joseph Dougan was)
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: scotmum on Wednesday 21 July 21 22:48 BST (UK)
M/1926/H1/221/5/89   Joseph   Dougan   Mailey   3rd February 1926   Ballymena


M/1926/H1/221/5/89   Minnie   Mailey   Dougan   3rd February 1926   Ballymena
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: aghadowey on Thursday 22 July 21 08:04 BST (UK)
Couldn't stand the suspense any longer so I got a few credits to view the certificate-
3 Feb.1926 Cunningham Memorial Church Cullybackey
Joseph Dougan, full age, bachelor, Constable, Church St. Ballymena, father- David John Dougan, farmer
Minnie Mailey, full age, spinster, Oranmore Ballymena, father- Stafford Mailey (deceased), labourer.
Witnesses- Frank Alexander, May McKelvey

If Minnie's aunt is Mary Jane Mailey then Stafford Mailey was her grandfather, not father.

However, looks like this Joseph Dougan can be eliminated and the search goes on ...
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Thursday 22 July 21 08:21 BST (UK)
42 Ava Drive was listed for sale in newspaper February 1969.

Thank you Scotmum.  That is good information also as it gives some support to the Minnie Dougan who died in 1969 as being the person in question.  Although she died later in the year, I guess it is likely she may have transferred to a nursing home prior to death.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Thursday 22 July 21 08:31 BST (UK)
Some further snippets in case helpful. In acknowledgement notice in Belfast newspaper after Joseph's death,  Minnie mentioned No 2 King's Bridge LDV (local defence volunteers?),  Old Contemptables Association (likely The British Expeditionary Force which served in Flanders) and the British Legion. Also,  Minnie placed an acknowledgement in a Ballymena newspaper, thanking kind friends and neighbours and mentioning an Orange lodge and a Royal Black preceptory.

This was not the first time Minnie had placed a notice in a Ballymena paper. In 1940, she placed an In Memorium for an aunt, Mary Jane Mailey.

All good information.  If you look at the death certificate, you can see that the person present at his death was a Martha Mailey.  I could not locate her but, your information confirms she was a relative.

I just had a look where Balymena is, a little distance outside Belfast.  Maybe she was from that area originally.  I wonder if Joseph was as well.  Something else to chase up.

The acknowledgement notes are interesting, considering 'my' Joseph Dougan's military history and being a career soldier.  I also know that he served in France in WW1 where he was gassed.  With that in mind, I guess these notices could refer to him. But I am also aware there were other Joseph Dougans in WW1.

I might have a look at the subscription link you sent me to see if I can find them all and have a closer look.

Thanks again.

David

Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: aghadowey on Thursday 22 July 21 08:33 BST (UK)
Informant on the 1941 death was a Martha RAINEY.

See reply #23 for latest on this Joseph Dougan  :o
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Thursday 22 July 21 08:49 BST (UK)
M/1926/H1/221/5/89   Joseph   Dougan   Mailey   3rd February 1926   Ballymena


M/1926/H1/221/5/89   Minnie   Mailey   Dougan   3rd February 1926   Ballymena

Great work Scotmum.  It appears you have located the crucial bit of information.  This rules out Joseph Dougan from Ava Drive.

Now, where is 'my' Joseph Dougan buried I wonder?  😀

Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Thursday 22 July 21 09:01 BST (UK)
Couldn't stand the suspense any longer so I got a few credits to view the certificate-
3 Feb.1926 Cunningham Memorial Church Cullybackey
Joseph Dougan, full age, bachelor, Constable, Church St. Ballymena, father- David John Dougan, farmer
Minnie Mailey, full age, spinster, Oranmore Ballymena, father- Stafford Mailey (deceased), labourer.
Witnesses- Frank Alexander, May McKelvey

If Minnie's aunt is Mary Jane Mailey then Stafford Mailey was her grandfather, not father.

However, looks like this Joseph Dougan can be eliminated and the search goes on ...


Well aghadowey, you have probably worked out that I have been working my way through the responses in sequence.  You can now ignore all my above replies as you, with the assistance of Scotmum, have solved my dilemma!  At least one dilemma (re the Ava Drive Joseph Dougan).

Unfortunately, my original dilemma remains.

If he died in 1937 as the family believe, is there any reason he would not be listed on GRONI?

I guess he may have died elsewhere.  If he left the family, he may have moved to England (his wife was born in London and he spent time there), back to Gibraltar (he lived there for many years with the army) or I guess anywhere at all.

The family (grandchildren) believe though that he died in Belfast, whilst still living at 26 Donegall Gardens with his wife.

The Ava Drive Joseph Dougan has certainly been a distraction.  Did I mention that that address is less than 300 feet from where his daughter-in-law's parents were living at the time!  Just another little snippet that lent some credibility to the theory he may have been 'our' Joseph.

If you have any other potential clues or sources of info that I can follow up, please let me know.

Oh well.  Many thanks to you for all the excellent assistance you have given me.  If I can repay the favour at all, please let me know.  Or if, after these Covid times, you find yourself in Brisbane, Australia, I would be happy to return the favour.

Now, back to the search!  😀

Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: aghadowey on Thursday 22 July 21 09:13 BST (UK)
Right, new search commencing  :D

1932 Belfast directory- 26 Donegall Gardens: Joseph Dougan
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/dcomplete1932.htm
1939 Belfast directory- 26 Donegall Gardens: Mrs. Elizabeth Dougan
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/dcomplete1939.htm

Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Thursday 22 July 21 09:19 BST (UK)
Right, new search commencing  :D

1932 Belfast directory- 26 Donegall Gardens: Joseph Dougan
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/dcomplete1932.htm
1939 Belfast directory- 26 Donegall Gardens: Mrs. Elizabeth Dougan
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/dcomplete1939.htm

Haha.  I see you are a bit like me - and a dog with a bone!  Not wanting to let go 😀.

Yes, I located those two entries.

With the 1939 entry showing his wife as the occupier, it obviously suggests he was not there.  Unfortunately, it does not indicate whether he was dead or had just moved out.

Very frustrating.

Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: heywood on Thursday 22 July 21 09:44 BST (UK)
There is a newspaper, the Belfast Newsletter,  snippet dated April 1935 where there is a Joseph Dougan mentioned. He is one of 9 defendants.  :-\
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: scotmum on Thursday 22 July 21 12:30 BST (UK)
There is a newspaper, the Belfast Newsletter,  snippet dated April 1935 where there is a Joseph Dougan mentioned. He is one of 9 defendants.  :-\

The case was in connection with millworkers and houses they occupied, in County Armagh.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: heywood on Thursday 22 July 21 14:05 BST (UK)
Thanks scotmum,
I just mentioned it as a possibility/alternative and thought there might be an address.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: scotmum on Thursday 22 July 21 16:19 BST (UK)
It might be worth checking this death, even if only to rule it out, as location, year and age fit well for your chap:

D/1937/55/1007/69/369   Joseph   Dongan   4th June 1937   51      Male   Belfast(pre-1973 Q4)

If, as is highly possibly, a written 'u' has been indexed as an 'n', and should be Dougan, you can ask GRONI to consider same for correction of their index.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Friday 23 July 21 04:40 BST (UK)
It might be worth checking this death, even if only to rule it out, as location, year and age fit well for your chap:

D/1937/55/1007/69/369   Joseph   Dongan   4th June 1937   51      Male   Belfast(pre-1973 Q4)

If, as is highly possibly, a written 'u' has been indexed as an 'n', and should be Dougan, you can ask GRONI to consider same for correction.

Hallelujah!  Scotmum, you have done it again!

I obtained the 'full view' from GRONI and it is the correct Joseph Dougan!

May I ask how you found it?  Was it just trial and error?

I tried GRONI for Dougan, Doogan, Dugan, Duggan and Deegan but, I must admit, I did not try 'Dongan'.  When you think about it though, a 'u' can be mistaken for an 'n' in running writing so I should have thought about it.  I will know better in the future.

You and aghadowey have been a great help to me and it is very much appreciated.

This is a great step towards the main objective of finding out where he is buried.

I checked Belfast City Council (https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx) for the name Dongan but it came back 'no result).

My next thought is to identify every Catholic Church in the area around Donegall Gardens and contact them all personally to see if they have a record of his burial.  Can you advise any other means of finding his burial site?

Thank you once again.  You have been exceptional.

Regards,

David



Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Friday 23 July 21 05:11 BST (UK)
It might be worth checking this death, even if only to rule it out, as location, year and age fit well for your chap:

D/1937/55/1007/69/369   Joseph   Dongan   4th June 1937   51      Male   Belfast(pre-1973 Q4)

If, as is highly possibly, a written 'u' has been indexed as an 'n', and should be Dougan, you can ask GRONI to consider same for correction.


PS:  I have contacted GRONI to have the entry amended.

My wife says that the 'usual' cemetery for a Catholic in the Donegall Gardens area would be Milltown Cemetery.  She says this a big cemetery with no church attached.  Is this one of the cemeteries that would be included in the Belfast City Council burial records?

If not, is there any other source of information regarding burials at Milltown Cemetery?

Many thanks again.

David
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: aghadowey on Friday 23 July 21 09:28 BST (UK)
Wonder news that the correct death has been found  ;D

Most Catholic churches don't keep burial records so that might be a dead end.
Milltown Cemetery was my first guess if he died in Belfast. The Belfast burial site only covers City Cemetery, Dundonald & Roselawn (I had searched there the older day using 'D' as the surname, 'Ava' as the address, etc. with no matches.
There used to be gravestone photos for Milltown online but the link is now broken (don't know if link still there or was completely removed from internet)- see reply #15
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=535464.9
However, using Wayback Machine site I have checked sections 1, 4 & 5 to check for any headstone (not having much luck finding other sections).
I'm not sure of contact details, what you might be able to find out, etc. but someone else here is likely to be able to advise.
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: scotmum on Friday 23 July 21 09:43 BST (UK)
I believe some Milltown databases are available via Ulster Historical Foundation membership and/or Roots Ireland credits.

In addition, see some further comments and contact details posted by Elwyn on https://irelandxo.com/ireland/antrim/belfast-antrim/message-board/milltown-rc-cemetery-belfast
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: aghadowey on Friday 23 July 21 09:44 BST (UK)
I believe some Milltown databases are available via Ulster Historical Foundation membership and/or Roots Ireland credits.

Both only seem to go up to 1895  :(
Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Saturday 24 July 21 07:43 BST (UK)
Wonder news that the correct death has been found  ;D

Most Catholic churches don't keep burial records so that might be a dead end.
Milltown Cemetery was my first guess if he died in Belfast. The Belfast burial site only covers City Cemetery, Dundonald & Roselawn (I had searched there the older day using 'D' as the surname, 'Ava' as the address, etc. with no matches.
There used to be gravestone photos for Milltown online but the link is now broken (don't know if link still there or was completely removed from internet)- see reply #15
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=535464.9
However, using Wayback Machine site I have checked sections 1, 4 & 5 to check for any headstone (not having much luck finding other sections).
I'm not sure of contact details, what you might be able to find out, etc. but someone else here is likely to be able to advise.

That's a bit of bad news re the Catholic Churches not keeping death records.  That was my only real hope of finding him.

I haven't heard of the Wayback Machine.  I will check it out as well as your other link.

I may have to try and convince one of my wife's Irish Relatives top contact Milltown Cemetery to see if they have any records.  At least we now have a date of death, thanks to you guys/girls.,

Thanks again.


Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Saturday 24 July 21 07:44 BST (UK)
I believe some Milltown databases are available via Ulster Historical Foundation membership and/or Roots Ireland credits.

In addition, see some further comments and contact details posted by Elwyn on https://irelandxo.com/ireland/antrim/belfast-antrim/message-board/milltown-rc-cemetery-belfast

Thanks again Scotmum.  I shall certainly check them out.

He must be buried somewhere!

Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: David Hutchinson on Saturday 24 July 21 07:47 BST (UK)
I believe some Milltown databases are available via Ulster Historical Foundation membership and/or Roots Ireland credits.

Both only seem to go up to 1895  :(

Just checked my old messages and see that I have already been in contact with the Ulster Historical Foundation (Kevin Keenan).  No joy there but he has also made some suggestions.

Unfortunately, he was still working on the 1941 Joseph Dougan.  I shall get back to him with the 1937 death record to see if that makes a difference but, in all honesty, the records are fairly similar.

David

Title: Re: Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 24 July 21 08:16 BST (UK)
I believe some Milltown databases are available via Ulster Historical Foundation membership and/or Roots Ireland credits.

Both only seem to go up to 1895  :(