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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: roycymru on Monday 26 July 21 17:05 BST (UK)
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Hello
If I am not mistaken Mandy Rice Davies is descended from Ann Stone 1811 of Danyquarry, Five Roads and John Rice William’s (1805-1893). However, there is some confusion over her parentage, particularly her mother. With someone so famous I thought it would have been resolved but apparently not and there is conflicting information on-line.
There seems to be no disputing her father is Ronald Woodford Rice Davies (1914-1997). However, her mother is most trees is listed as Eluned Jones and birth place as Pontyates which does not fit the available facts.
Ronald marries Margaret G Davies in 1939 in Flintshire and up until 1943 he was a police officer in Birmingham. On line trees state Marilyn/Mandy was born 21 Oct born 1944, with most people having her born Pontyates. However, possible births that match in the register are Dec Qtr 1844:
Davies Marilyn R Lewis Mere 5a 378
Davies Marilyn R Lewis Merthyr T. 11a 984
Some state Mere (Wiltshire) is the correct one. So the facts indicate a birthplace of Mere rather than Pontyates and a mother with surname Lewis not Jones or Davies.
Ronald does appear to marry an Eluned but an Eluned Lewis, not Jones, and not until 1965 in Watford.
There is also a possible divorce involved as his first wife has JACOBS written above her surname in the 1939 register.
It’s all very confusing. Does someone know her correct parentage?
Thank you
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I cannot view the complete entry, but the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography states :
Davies , Marilyn Rice ( known as Mandy Rice-Davies ) was born 21 Oct 1944 at The Lynch, Mere , Wiltshire , daughter of Ronald Woodford Rice Davies and Eluned Lewis , nee Jones
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qsg/
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I cannot view the complete entry, but the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography states :
Davies , Marilyn Rice ( known as Mandy Rice-Davies ) was born 21 Oct 1944 at The Lynch, Mere , Wiltshire , daughter of Ronald Woodford Rice Davies and Eluned Lewis , nee Jones
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qsg/
Thank you, that sounds very promising, it sounds like the full article will give all the details
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Ronald Woodford Rice Davies was born on 29 September 1914 in Pontiets, Carmarthenshire and died in Solihull where he was a policeman.
Ronald married Eluned Davies who was born 3rd April 1908.
They had two children of which Marilyn was the elder. She was born on 21st October 1944 in Mere, Wiltshire.
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Ronald Woodford Rice Davies was born on 29 September 1914 in Pontiets, Carmarthenshire and died in Solihull where he was a policeman.
Ronald married Eluned Davies who was born 3rd April 1908.
They had two children of which Marilyn was the elder. She was born on 21st October 1944 in Mere, Wiltshire.
That he married an Eluned Davies does not match marriage records or his police record on line at ancestry. The attached is the entry from 1943
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I have a copy of the STONE family tree which I was told was compiled by a researcher employed by Mandy herself.
I just quoted from that.
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Margaret was Ronald’s second wife and they had a child called Olivia Rice Davies born in 1941 in Trethyn, Flintshire.
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Margaret was Ronald’s second wife and they had a child called Olivia Rice Davies born in 1941 in Trethyn, Flintshire.
Thanks. Was Eluned his 3rd wife then? It’s all a bit confusing. As on 28 June 1843 (see previous attachment) his police record still shows him married to Margaret G Davies. What date does the tree give for the marriage to Eluned Davies? If he married Eluned Davies why does the birth record in the GRO show the mother’s maiden name as Lewis. None of it matches up?!
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Davies Marilyn R Lewis Merthyr T. 11a 984
could be her death in 1948 age 3
Davies Marilyn Rose Merthyr T. 8b 297
Tony
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In answer to roycymru regarding the date of marriage for Eluned, sorry it doesn’t say.
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Davies Marilyn R Lewis Merthyr T. 11a 984
could be her death in 1948 age 3
Davies Marilyn Rose Merthyr T. 8b 297
Tony
Thanks. Looks to discount this one, leaving the Mere GRO one, which the consensus seems to be the correct one. A fuller transcript of the Biography would be interesting as it would provide an alternative viewpoint
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Reading this thread, I remembered I have the autobiography, 'Mandy' (Mandy Rice-Davies with Shirley Flack, published 1980). Miraculously I knew exactly where it was, so I've had a look in there.
Her mother isn't named but there are lots of clues, and it makes you think her mother and father may still have been married to other people at the time.
Here are the relevant paragraphs:
‘The only tangible element of mystery existing in my young life was the reluctance of my parents ever to discuss their past life. How and where they met, how they came to marry, all this was shrouded in secrecy, so that at an early age I deduced, correctly, that each had been married before and that I was not supposed to know.
Mother was born and grew up in Wales. Her father, a professional soldier in the cavalry who never attained a rank higher than private, died young, leaving his widow to raise the family. Mother was the youngest, and rather pampered I suspect. She was very pretty and this led her to the stage. Briefly. Her career ended with a flop, and as job prospects for a girl from her background were restricted, she married at the earliest opportunity, producing a son and daughter in fairly close succession. During the slump of the thirties, her husband believing they stood a better chance of survival by leaving Wales, moved the family to the Midlands where opportunities seemed brighter. It was there she met my father.'
[some paragraphs about her father’s family]
'Daddy had been transferred to the Birmingham police force at the beginning of the war and had met my mother. In old age he has taken to making humourous allusions to their meeting. ‘She seduced me’; but thirty years ago when the memory was still fresh the immediate past was a forbidden topic.
By the time I was born in October 1944, Daddy had been called up as a radio officer in the Eighth Army. He saw his baby daughter Marilyn once before being sent overseas, and I was already a toddler when we met again. My family circle consisted of me; mother; her daughter, my half sister, Margaret who was 16 when I was born and was a second mother to me (my other half brother and sister were never part of our family); and for a brief period, my maternal grandmother, a fierce old lady for whom I felt a healthy disdain.’
So, no definite answers, but a bunch of clues ;D
There's a younger brother David, and after the police, her father worked for Dunlop.
hth :)
Lisa
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There's a birth registration for a -
Diana M Davies, Sept Qtr 1939, Mere, 5a 355 - a possible sibling for the Marilyn R Davies at Mere, previously posted.
There is an entry on the 1939 register for a Ronald W R Davies (born 29 Sep 1914), Police Constable and Margaret G Davies* (born 24 Apr 1915) at No 16, Poston Croft Cul de Sac, off Broad Lane, Birmingham.
Ronald , therefore, not a candidate as father to Diana, 1939?
Margaret's record is endorsed in green "1/2/ Med(?) LA 4 10 60 JACOBS"
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Thanks for the further posts, very interesting and indicates that Mandy's birth is a complex affair, and might prove difficult to unravel definitively if even her own parents were not forthcoming.
I think the 1939 register is Ronald as name, profession and DOB match the police employment record for him on line.
Whether Margaret G Davies is his first or second wife in unclear (unless someone has the marriage details). She does not look to be the mother of Mandy, As previously suggested I think there may be a divorce as or a much later marriage for Margaret as JACOBS is written above her surname in the 1939 register, which usually indicates subsequent surname.
Does the Biography state who Mandy regarded as her Mother? Was it Eluned? If so, Mandy may have been conceived out of wedlock and much later Ronald went on to marry her?
Are there searchable divorce records on line that could be searched for, for a divorce?
What dies the Stone family tree say in terms of who Ronald married and when and similarly for his wife's?
Thank you
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I did spot the marriage of a Margaret G Davies, Jun Qtr 1955, Marylebone, 5d 683 - spouse John O Jacobson
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Marriage Registration
Ronald W R Davies, Sep Qtr 1939, Hawarden (Flintshire), 11b 642A - spouse Margaret G Davies.
The police record mentions "Flintshire".
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freebmd
marriage
1926 Q Dec
Eluned Jones and William J Lewis Pontypridd 11a 977
then in 1928 there are 2 possible births for a Margaret Lewis mmn Jones in Pontypridd
Having just looked for a possible Eluned Jones b1908 (as in a previous reply) in the 1911 census, I wonder if the background story for the mother (in the bio) might be a little 'creative', most of the fathers are miners, and I didn't see an entry where Eluned was the youngest either. So there is probably another 'story' there.
Maybe the marriage above might help identify Eluned.
there is a 1948 entry in Solihull on freebmd which looks like the birth of the brother
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In a widely reported incident in Sep 1963, involving Marilyn appearing outside her old school (Sharmans Cross, Shirley), the papers referred to
"Miss Davies was not at her home in Blenheim Road, Shirley, last night. Her father said he knew nothing of the incident."
A June 1963 report refers to her being " ... roused from her bed at her parents home at Shirley ..."
Sight of the electoral roll might deliver Ronald's partner/wife at that time?
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Interesting record in 1939
William J Lewis with ‘Elvner’ (transcription) living in Glamorgan.
We are not allowed to give much detail but there is a further date and amendment.
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Interesting record in 1939
William J Lewis with ‘Elvner’ (transcription) living in Glamorgan.
We are not allowed to give much detail but there is a further date and amendment.
A very interesting find. Great spot! Elvner could well be Eluned. Surname is Lewis, later crossed out and replaced by Davies. There is also a daughter Margaret Lewis who would have be 16 in 1944 and therefore possibly the step sister Margaret age 16 mentioned in the autobiography.
There is also a son Merlin Lewis born 1930, which must be
Lewis Merlin J (Jones) Pontypridd 11a 919
This would also tie in with the marriage posted earlier
1926 Q Dec
Eluned Jones and William J Lewis Pontypridd 11a 977
Therefore supposition at this point is Eluned Jones married William J Lewis in 1926. They had a daughter Margaret in 1928 and son Merlin in 1930 (step sister and brother) to Marylin/Mandy. Eluned Lewis (nee Jones) was Mandy’s mother, possibly conceived while Ronald was still married to Margaret G Davies.
Davies Marilyn R (Lewis) Mere 5a 378
Ronald and Eluned may have later lived together as husband and wife but did not officially marry until 1965.
Please feel free to disagree!
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I have a copy of the STONE family tree which I was told was compiled by a researcher employed by Mandy herself.
I just quoted from that.
This would be concerning if the researcher was a professional but the brief was probably just to research back from Ronald and disregard the identity of her mother.
If he married Eluned Davies why does the birth record in the GRO show the mother’s maiden name as Lewis. None of it matches up?!
They weren't married at the time of the birth so if Eluned was her mother then her name was probably recorded as just Eluned LEWIS, which was her surname at the time, but not her maiden surname.
Following on from the notation for Eluned in 1939.
The London Gazette
Publication date:
15 September 1944
Issue: 36703
Page: 4291
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36703/page/4291
NOTICE is hereby given that ELUNED LEWIS of The Lynch, Mere, in the county of Wiltshire, wife of William John Lewis a natural born British subject resident in the United Kingdom on the date of the coming into force of Regulation 20 of the Defence (General) Regulations 1939, intends after the expiration of twenty-one days from the date of publication of this notice to assume the surname of Davies. Dated the 5th day of September 1944.
Regulation 20 was just that all changes of name had to be published in the London Gazette for the duration of the war.
Debra :)
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Gosh that's an interesting find Debra, that seems like the final piece of the puzzle. How interesting.
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That is a fantastic find.
I doubt very much if the researcher had the benefit of the internet, we are very fortunate to have it.
This is likely to be the belated marriage of him and Eluned, but under her Williams married name
DAVIES RONALD W R and LEWIS Eluned WATFORD 4B 1026
Perhaps using Lewis rather than her “known as” surname of Davies was just another smoke screen in the scheme of things.
Thank you to everyone for their contribution on this, they have all helped solved the puzzle, this is why I love Rootschat so much, the seemingly unsolvable becomes solvable. Well done everyone!
Roy
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Great find and good to see a conclusion :)
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Regarding Mandy being recorded as being born in Mere-this is near Salisbury Plain which is an army training ground. As her father was in the 8th Army (according to her autobiography) it is possible her father was stationed there in 1944 with Margaret living nearby.
One of the posts refers to two children being born to Ronald's first wife-Margaret who lived with the later marriage and a son called Merlin. Mandy states in her autobiography the the son did not live with her parents in the second marriage