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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: colee on Wednesday 28 July 21 08:10 BST (UK)
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What happened to my great grandfather - I would love some help!
William Thomas Butterworth was born in Blackburn, Lancashire, on 23 February 1870. He had a son, John, with 1st wife Catherine Snape then 3 more children with my great grandmother Sarah Yates, in 1900, 1902 and 1904 (by then based in Chatham, Kent). He disappeared (the story my aunt was brought up with was that he 'died in a brawl'. However, DNA matches have recently thrown up another son he had, Roy Payne, by Gertrude E Woollett, which was registered in Lambeth in 1913.
Any ideas how I can trace what happened to him? It would be amazing to find out (I've been trying on and off for a few years). Thank you!
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Roy (Golding) Payne if he is your man has father Herbert J Payne and mother as stated on a family tree posted
Louisa Maud
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I presume Sarah Ellen said she was a widow when she remarried? (Assuming I have that correctly? to George Thomas WAGHORN in 1906?)
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Herbert isn't the one I'm looking for. Roy's father on his birth certificate may have been Herbert J Payne, but DNA matches have shown that Roy was actually the son of William Thomas Butterworth, my great grandfather, ie via an extra marital affair. This has only just come to light. My great grandmother was married to William, she took the name Butterworth and my grandmother was born Anne Butterworth. But after William disappeared, she married George Thomas Waghorn in 1906 (I'm not sure if she said she was a widow but I guess so). And I haven't been able to find anything about what happened to William after 1913 when Roy was born. But I guess he was living in the London area at that time.
Best, Colee
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yes sorry, my great grandmother was Sarah Ellen Yates.
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I was trying to establish through electoral registers if Mr Butterworth might have been a lodger or a neighbour, no luck so far
LM
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Good thinking! It would be so amazing to find something.
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Mrs Butterworth must have either known he had died or assumed, her marriage cert might be a good idea
LM
Second thinking if he became a father in 1913 he wasn't dead was he?
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Just to add to the confusion:
11 jan 1892 William Thomas Butterworth 21 father Richard married Catherine A Snape 25 father not given, witnesses Richard Butterworth and Hannah Bolton at the Parish Church of Bolton.
1901 Caroline married was living with her mother and son John aged 8
1911 Caroline widow was living alone with son John now 18
in 1911 Caroline was still alive so he was in no position to 'marry' anyone else
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Indeed! I can't remember if I found the marriage details for Sarah Ellen and William Thomas, but he certainly seems to have had a few 'unofficial' relationships, and goodness knows how many children! It would be great to find out what happened to that John but I couldn't find anything when I was looking a couple of years ago. Butterworth is a very common name in Lancashire so it makes it quite tricky.
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I noticed a couple of soldiers by the name of William T. Butterworth among the medal recipients, 1914-1920, one a private, the other a corporal. Is it at all possible that he joined the army to fight in the Great War? (He seems to have gone missing roughly then).
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Thank you Watson, yes it's definitely possible, we wondered that as well. Guess we should be able to match up from the birth information. He was quite old though in 1914 (44 years) but I guess if he had wanted to join up he could have? I'm not sure what the rules were.
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Interesting. There's a WW1 pensions ledger record which says a W Butterworth, 7th R. Innis: Fus., service number 41231 was married to Sarah Ellen Butterworth with children Florence and John, and died on 16 August 1917.
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...or there was a William Butterworth in the Buffs (East Kent) Regiment, Private G/26141 on a medal rolls index card, probably more likely since he would have signed up in Kent most likely.
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that William died in action in France on 18 September 1918, I haven't found any reference to any dates of birth or family members or address yet though.
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hmm another pension ledger index card has this William's dependent as Annie Butterworth
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shame... not that one.. seems that William was born in Manchester
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You said Sarah Ellen Yates was your great-grandmother. Doesn't that match with the Sarah Ellen Butterworth who was named as the soldier's wife?
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Yes, but weird though that the children listed are not children he had with Sarah Ellen, none of those children are listed. I haven't come across a Florence daughter that he had, but it might be worth investigating as it's a fairly unusual name. I think I also just saw this Willliam going back up north when he was discharged, which is possible. Maybe the Florence line is the best one to look for, maybe he had a daughter Florence with first wife Catherine Snape.
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think you need a subscription with Fold3 to see those ledger/pension records, which I don't have any more.
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I do nt think this is him but similarities apart from the name!
Service records for an Edwin Butterworth, 22854 East Lancs and 96779.
Address 32 Acer St Blackburn
married a SUSAN Ellen Yates 1899
Child Sarah Ellen born 1900
There is a letter that states no trace of the name Edwin Butterworth in the records of East Lancs or under that number.
I have doubts this is anything to do with your William but you never know.
Cathy
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That William (41231) with widow Sarah Ellen was born in Farnworth, but my great grandfather was born in Blackburn so I don't think that's him either.
And thank you Cathy - there are so many Butterworths, that's the problem! 'My' William was married to Sarah Ellen, didn't have any children by her name I don't think.
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Sorry, Edwin not your William at all looking at other records
Cathy :(
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ps Louisa I checked through all the registration docs I have amassed, and sure enough I have a copy of Sarah Ellen and George's marriage certificate, from January 1906, on which the status of both is 'widowed'. So I guess William was 'presumed dead' and had disappeared rather than her necessarily marrying when she knew she was still married to someone else.
I guess William might be on the census of 1911 somewhere, I probably didn't look before as I didn't expect him to be alive then, maybe that will throw something up.
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What about witnesses on the marriage cert and address they gave
On information received what was William's occupation ?
LM
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I have found a death, 1906 for Thomas William Butterworth , Prestwich 1906, is this a possibility? bearing in mind his wife married Mr Waghorn 1906, if this isn't his death she must have assumed he had died,
Just a thought
LM
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W R Hunt and E L Hunt witnesses.
(and Sarah Ellen lived on 30 Sidney Road, George Waghorn on 13 Maida Road)
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I'm pretty sure he had a child in 1913 though, in London.
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It really is strange , possible bigamous marriage?, i had one in my family in the 1870's
Some people never want to be found, hanging my hopes on 1921 census for a few of mine
LM
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Yes I'm thinking he may show up in 1921 - either that or through the DNA of more children he may have had!
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Good you are positive not long for 1921,
LM
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IF I’m looking at the right people here, it seems that Gertrude and Roy Payne must have stayed with Herbert for a while. Roy and Herbert are together in 1939, while Gertrude is with someone she later marries.
Gertrude E. Payne mar Frederick A.C. Perry - Lambeth 1952 Just added
Gertrude E. Perry b.1881 dd.1966 Lambeth
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Confusing times! So Roy stayed with Herbert after Gertrude left, not knowing that Herbert wasn't actually his father!
It all seemed to happen in Lambeth though, which is not far away from where I am now. Makes it even more fascinating - William Thomas Butterworth so near yet so far... but also frustrating!!
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Walter
Birth and death registered around the time of Sarah's marriage to Mr. Waghorn.
Death
Dec 1905 Medway 2a 394
Butterworth, Walter
age 0
Birth
BUTTERWORTH, WALTER
Mother's Maiden Surname: YATES
GRO Reference: 1906 M Quarter in MEDWAY Volume 02A Page 732 Occasional Copy: A
But original GRO birth index has Walter indexed twice
March 1906 Medway 2a 732a
Butterworth, Walter
Waghorn, Walter
As well as the 4 year old daughter with George and Sarah in 1911, there was another likely one, Georgina Edna Waghorn, mother Yates, who was born in 1909, and died same year. Which would make their children's totals in the census correct.
So who was the father of Walter?
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Ah, he was originally on page 732 as Buttersworth
March 1906 Medway 2a 732
Buttersworth, Walter
Perhaps no father was named? :-\
Walter is not in any ancestry trees.
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Have you followed up on any baptisms?
LM
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The marriage was by licence, was it just in time for the nex birth?
LM
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Very interesting find about Walter, thank you! And intriguing choice of name. So if Walter was born in December 1905 it is very possible he was William Butterworth's son, especially as the name was probably initially registered as Butterworth.
I wonder what the significance of marriage 'by licence' is, I hadn't noticed that - I'll have to look it up, it may give a clue as to the situation.
I could get the birth and death certs for Walter, that might be interesting too.
I don't think I looked at baptisms before for them, but that's a good idea.
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oh yes, I meant to say, I have a Gladys V Waghorn born in 1907 (George had a daughter Gladys with his first wife but she died in 1906); and yes I also have that other daughter Georgina in 1909 who died that same year.
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George Waghorn's daughter from his first marriage, Cordelia, was baptised at Saint Paul's, Chatham, Kent, in 1882 so I should see if the records from that church are online as later baptisms and deaths in the family might be in it too.
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Saint Paul's, Chatham, Kent, in 1882 so I should see if the records from that church are online as later baptisms and deaths in the family might be in it too.
Yes they are
https://cityark.medway.gov.uk/
Instructions for navigating if you have trouble
https://www.kent-opc.org/cityarksearching.html
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wow loads of info in there, thank you. I've had a quick look, I couldn't see parish records, but I'll look again. I also looked on Family Search for baptisms but none of the family came up there.
I was looking at the cemeteries to see where the family may have been buried, I found George Thomas Waghorn, first wife and dau Cordelia but none of the '2nd' family, strange. I was thinking I'd go down and look in the local churchyards but there is quite a lot of info online so I should look there first. But I can't see Sarah Ellen Waghorn/Butterworth in any of the local cemeteries.
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Here
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Then
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Then the blue cross
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And this one
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And
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Then the trap for new players
It’s the PDFs at the top you need to choose.
They take ages to load.
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Hi,
If your William Thomas Butterworth didn't die pre 1906, could he have returned to Blackburn?
There is a marriage at Blackburn Register Office in 1907 to a Margaret Alston - bit of a long shot but worth considering?
Alan
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St Paul Chatham baptisms are transcribed on FreeReg.
No Butterworths.
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Fantastically helpful!
Thank you for the hint about FreeREG, I didn't know about that site, very useful. I think the St Paul transcriptions go up to 1905 so may not include the one for Walter which I guess would be towards the end of the year.
Brilliantly helpful guide with links to the registers mckha489, I will dip into those today and see what I can find.
And I'll have a look at that marriage in Blackburn, all leads are worth checking out, but he was definitely in London in 1913 so wouldn't have moved back permanently to Lancs, although it's possible it was temporary.
On cemeteries, it was very interesting find George Thomas Waghorn yesterday and it occurred to me that Sarah Ellen may have wanted to be buried with her 'Yates' mother, so I'll have a look into that too. With all this wonderful help and tips, we should hopefully get closer to unravelling the mystery.
Big thank you, Colee
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Think I've found Ann Yates, too, Sarah Ellen's mother, in the same Maidstone Road cemetery:
Age: 69, Sex: F, Rank or Profession: Widow, Died at: 44 Melbourne Road, Removed From: St Paul
Ann Yates
BIRTH 1850
DEATH 13 Dec 1919 (aged 68–69)
BURIAL
Chatham Maidstone Road Cemetery
Chatham, Medway Unitary Authority, Kent, England
which shows Ann was moved from St Paul, interesting, so she should be in the St Paul register (the Waghorns were moved from Christchurch interestingly)
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Fantastic! Just browsing through the St Paul register for 1905, found the baptism of a granddaughter of Ann Yates, Gladys Ellen Ann (from her daughter Emily who was married to James Coombe), at the same address as Ann Yates (Sarah Ellen's mother) was registered on her death. Emily was the 2nd youngest child, born in 1881.
When Ann came down to Kent from Lancs she was already a widow, so it is possible from then on she always lived with one of her children.
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I've found lots of great Waghorn records in the St Pauls parish register, thank you mckha489. But so far only baptisms, I couldn't find any death/burial records. Am I looking in the wrong place? Thank you so much for your help!
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I couldn't find any death/burial records. Am I looking in the wrong place? Thank you so much for your help!
Hmm, there don’t seem to be records for burials there.
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Chatham,_Kent_Genealogy
I have a feeling (but am not 100% sure) that quite a few of the Chatham churches “filled up” especially by 1900. Perhaps St Paul’s never had a burial ground.
But they must be somewhere…….
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Gladys V Waghorn (from George T Waghorn's marriage to Cordelia) died in Aug 1906 and was buried in Christchurch; as was Georgina E Waghorn who died aged 4 months in Dec 1909.
So it would be good if there were some parish records for Christchurch, Walter I guess should be there too.
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https://www.kfhs.org.uk/shop/product-detail.php?x=66
Depends which Christchurch
https://cityark.medway.gov.uk/Details/archive/110000423
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I think this must be the church, it's right near to where they lived on Maida Road - this one is a new church though, I guess the old one must have been knocked down, hence why all the graves were moved to the Maidstone Road cemetery.
I wonder what happened to the old church records.
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Have you got either of the 1902, 1904 birth certificates?
The two children registered in Strood.
Do you know where they were living then, was William's occupation the same?
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No I haven't got either of those birth certificates but I should probably get them, as well as the certificate for Bertie (William Robert) who was born in 1906. I was thinking, though, that likely William Thomas would still have been around at that time, or Bertie was named William 'in memory' of him. Either way, the family must still have been thinking positively about William Thomas Butterworth to have given Bertie the same name as him.
As for occupation, the 1901 census gives his occupation as 'insurance canvasser': see attached. And at this time they lived at 195 New Road. But by 1906 and her marriage to George Waghorn, Sarah Ellen was living at 30 Sidney Road.
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interesting, in the previous census in 1891 while still in Blackburn, his occupation is listed as cotton weaver while his father, Robert, is listed as 'assurance agent':
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another slight mystery... looking to order some certs, ie Walter's death and Margaret and Annie's birth certs... and I can only find Margaret in the Medway register in 1900, nothing for Annie who should have been born in 1902 around April - according to death info I think.
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Here they are
BUTTERWORTH, ANNIE
Mother's Maiden Surname: YATES
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in STROOD Volume 02A Page 650
BUTTERWORTH, WILLIAM ROBERT
Mother's Maiden Surname: YATES
GRO Reference: 1904 M Quarter in STROOD Volume 02A Page 688
Don't forget you can order as a pdf from the GRO for only £7
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Brilliant thank you so much, weird I don't know why they weren't coming up... the freebmd/GRO website looks quite different to when I was looking a few years ago, and it's pretty confusing!! Anyway, that's SUPER helpful thank you, I'll order the certificates now.
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just spotted that, £7 is a bargain!
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Hi
Good luck.
It looks to me as if Walter died early in the month of December 1905. And Sarah married George Waghorn in early January 1906. So I am doubting that William Thomas Butterworth was still with Sarah when Walter died.
John
EDIT - Checked those dates! ;D
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oh yes, I also found out that George Thomas Waghorn had a younger brother called Walter, so that points to the connection with George rather than William by the time Walter is born.
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Ah, that's interesting. Well hopefully you will find William's last known whereabouts (until 1913!)
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hope so, and thank you again for your help.
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The certificates are interesting:
Margaret's birth (15 June 1900), address is no 34 a road in Chatham (can't make it out as yet) with occupation given as 'insurance superintendent';
Annie's birth (21 April 1902) shows address 16 Clifton Terrace, Strood, occupation 'commission agent';
William Robert's birth (20 Jan 1904) address is Down Hall, Northfleet, occupation 'surveyor';
and Walter's death is the most interesting certificate which I've uploaded, gives the death as 10 Dec 1905, he was only hours old when he died of heart problems, the registrar corrected the details in July 1906 so this must have been re-issued, to say that William Thomas was deceased - on production of a declaration by Emily Yates (Sarah Ellen's sister) and Sarah Ellen Waghorn.
And the GRO hasn't located the birth certificate yet...
Any thoughts on all of that?!
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Wow!
That's a lot of certificates you've got.
On Walter's amended (and reissued?) death certificate it seems to say
Col 5 for "William Thomas Butterworth (deceased) a General Labourer"
read "Sarah Ellen Butterworth formerly Yates"
Does it mean that they are in effect no longer saying that WT Butterworth was Walter's father, only that Sarah Ellen was his mother.
They have also corrected the relationship of the informant Emily Coombe in Col 7 from sister to aunt.
So Emily gave the info on the death reg, and, presumably at the same time, on the birth registration that the GRO can't find.
I would think that the amended birth certificate will probably remove William Thomas Butterworth as Walter's father.
Interesting that originally Emily said WT was dead (if he wasn't), and that he was a general labourer, whereas we have seen him as something rather different.
John
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yes it's odd that they should go back to change the record. I might try to get in touch with Emily's family. The two branches of the family fell out I think after my grandmother's sister Margaret Butterworth married Emily's husband (ie her uncle!) after Emily died. But Emily was obviously close to her mother Sarah Ellen, she lived with her etc. So they may know something about what happened/why and even have more photos etc.