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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Lincoln1955 on Wednesday 04 August 21 11:18 BST (UK)
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I am hoping someone will be able to help me find the date of death of my paternal great uncle called Albert Edward Lincoln. He was born to Edward and Mary Lincoln (nee Ager) on 9/5/1881 in Norwich. I have searched and searched on ancestry to no avail. The one and only census I have found him on is the 1891 aged 9 years old. I cannot find him on the 1901, 1911 or 1939 register. I guess if I wait until 1921 census is released that may help. I cannot find him as a death in the WWI. I do not feel he died in WW1 as he had a brother called Sydney Walter Lincoln who died 2/21/1917 in Palestine and his name has been carried on as a 2nd name for both my father and his cousin. You would think that if Albert Edward had of died in WW1 then his name would have carried on too but it hasn’t. I have looked for his name in passenger lists too. I feel he must have died between 1891 and 1901 but cannot find anything. Is anyone able to guide me further please? I am new to all of this but I have managed to trace the deaths of all my other paternal great aunts/uncles very easily. Thanking you all in advance.
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Welcome to rootschat
There is a possible marriage in Norfolk in 1914 to Ivy B Benstead. Ivy B Lincoln dies in the Warwick area in 1955
There are children probably born to this couple in Norwich area 1916/1921/1928 (Freebmd)
ADDED I think that this is the Albert Edward Lincoln born in 1893 mothers maiden surname Jary
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Mother Mary states she had 7children , one of whom has died.
Have found Lincoln/Ager births
1879 Beatrice Alice
1881 Albert
1885 Cecil (possible death 1886?)
1888 Alfred
1890 Sidney
Do you know of any more, if she entered the numbers correctly there might be another two ,if so, and Cecil was their son,then possibly Albert Edward was alive in 1911.
Cathy
Added... possibly Agnes Ager 1872 Bury St Edmunds? was another child
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Hi Rosie99
Thanks for the welcome. I don’t think it is Ivy Banstead. I have seen that previously and her husband and the age isn’t right. I can’t remember exactly but I know I have checked that several times. Think Ivy is buried in Suffolk and she also went by the name of Joy.
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Hi Cath151
Thank you for your reply.
Yes this is the right family.
Angus Ager born 1872 in Bury St Edmunds who was the child of Mary Ager before she married my great grandad Edward Lincoln in 1878 in Colchester.
I knew there was a child who died in infancy but didn’t have the details of Cecil so thank you for this.
You have all the family as far as I know. They moved to Norwich after Beatrice Alice was born in Malden. And then had Albert Edward (who I am desparate to find), my grandad Alfred and Sydney Walter (died in WW1) after moving to Norwich.
I have the deaths of Angus, Alfred and Beatrice but not the remaining sibling Albert Edward. I have the baptism which shows him to be born 9/5/1881.
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Anybody else able to assist please? Would be very very grateful.
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Who is the Albert Edward Lincoln who died in Birkenhead in 1909 aged 29? I can't identify a suitable candidate on 1901 census. Perhaps someone can locate his burial?
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Albert Edward of 18 Riversdale Road Egremont [Cheshire] died 3 Dec 1909 at Liskard Hospital Cheshire. Administration to John Lincoln, waiter
Buried in Camberwell - son of John and Mary
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/218119934/albert-lincoln
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Albert Edward Lincoln died 1909 in Egremont which was in Birkenhead Reg District. He was buried in Camberwell Old Cemetery, father appears to be John and administration of his estate was granted to John Lincoln. He appears to be in Camberwell in 1901 and birthplace given as Walworth. I don’t think he’s the one your looking for.
Just a thought I wonder if he served in the Boer Wars ?
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Thanks Gibel
I have seen that Albert Edward and sadly it’s not the one I am searching for. Mine great uncle has the parents Edward and Mary. I have the baptism document. The one you have found had the parents of John Preston and Mary Ann Lincoln. It’s also on Find A Grave and I have confirmed it on a 1901 census. The Albert Edward you have found was born on 23/12/1880 in St Saviour., Southwark which is Camberwell, hence his burial in Camberwell. His siblings and parents are all on find a grave to confirm it all. The mystery continues. Thank you all for looking.
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Hi Gibel. How do I find out if he served in the Boer Wars?
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I guess if Albert Edward is not on the 1921 census ( do we have confirmation that we will get access to this beg of next year?) then he must of either emigrated or as you say fought and died in the Boer War. The only census I have found him on is 1891 aged 9.
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I think that if Albert Edward died in the Boer War he would probably be commemorated on the Norwich Boer War memorial:
http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Norfolk/NorwichNorfolkBoerWar.html
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Hi Gallium.
Thank you for the link. There is a Lincoln H listed, not a A E Lincoln. I suppose there could always be an error on the initial.
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Could this be him? :-\
Norfolk News, Norwich Mercury, 4 June 1892
DAMAGING CHURCH WINDOWS. Albert Lincoln, of Wensum Street, was summoned by the Rev. W. B. Hull, of Redwell Street, for damaging a pane of glass in the church window of St. Peter Hungate, doing injury to the amount of 2d., on May 22nd. On Sunday, the 22nd ult., another boy saw defendant throw some marl at St. Peter Hungate Church, and break the window. There were some other boys with him, and they were trying to throw the marl into a hole in the wall near the window. The case was dismissed.
Not sure about this one, a case in Yarmouth. There is another candidate (one at least!) an Albert Lincoln, slightly younger, who was from Pakefield near Lowestoft. But he was a fisherman in 1911 and his dad was one too. Does that make him a more or less likely candidate than your chap? On balance, I would say less. Of course, it may be neither of them!
Eastern Daily Press, 1 March 1897
IMPUDENT THEFT FROM ALBERT SQUARE. Albert Lincoln, a lad of fifteen, described as a labourer, was charged with stealing from No. 7, Albert Square, a pair of women's boots and and a pair of shoes, together value 7s(?)., the property of Emily Warnes. Prosecutrix said that she was housekeeper at the High School, and that on Thursday, the 18th inst., she had the boots on a shelf in the kitchen, and afterwards missed them. She informed Detective-sergeant Lingwood, who afterwards brought her the boots. Prisoner was a stranger to her and she could only form the opinion that he entered the kitchen from the back through the garden. Frederick Graves, shoemaker, Howard Street North, said that on the 18th inst. he bought the button produced of a tall young man. Prisoner—Griffin.— Witness said that there were two others with the young man, and he gave 1s. 3d. for the boots, which he heeled, and had had in his window ever since. Prisoner—You only gave us 1s. 2d. for the boots. Joshua Moss, assistant to Frederick Marsh, pawnbroker, King Street, said he received the shoes in pledge on February 19th of prisoner, who gave the name of John Smith of Row 90. Detective-sergeant Lingwood said that on making inquiries he was able to recover the stolen property. On Friday he saw prisoner at Lodge's common lodging-house in George Street, and charged him with the theft. Prisoner said, Yes, I went round that way and knocked. Nobody answered, and I went in and took them. I and 'White Knob' and Alexander went to Graves', and sold them for 1s. 2d. I pawned the boots, and afterwards tore the ticket up. I suppose I shall bear 'White Knob' company to-morrow. Witness explained that White Knob was Griffin, who with Alexander were last week sent to gaol. Prisoner now told the magistrates he came to Yarmouth to go to sea. Detective-sergeant Lingwood said prisoner came to Yarmouth three months ago and he saw him then. He had gone to sea for one trip, but not liking it he had not gone again. Prisoner was remanded till Wednesday for further enquiries.
Follow up, EDP, 4 March 1897. GIVEN ANOTHER CHANCE.....The Mayor now told prisoner that his mother had promised to look after him, and he would be discharged.
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Hi jonw65
Who knows!! Maybe not the 2nd one as as far as I am aware the family lived in Norwich all their lives. Just don’t know why I cannot find him anywhere after the 1899 census. I guess if he doesn’t show up in the 1921 census then he must have died somewhen. I do so hope we have access to 1921 census next year. Does anyone know?
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His parents Edward and Mary had marital problems, later split ups, separation orders, court cases in newspapers.
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Jonw65
I know from the census that they lived apart but didn’t divorce. Please tell me more and give my the links if possible. Very grateful.
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Hi
Newspaper reports via British Newspaper Archive (also on findmypa..)
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/
Around 1900 and 1901
I only have the free ocr text, for these reports it is more difficult to put it all together than for the other two.
You can get three page views/downloads for free if you register with BNA.
Bear in mind that the same report will likely be reprinted in much the same form in more than one paper, so choose what you pick carefully!
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Jonw65
Thank you
you so so much. Will try and work out how to do it.
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jonw65
Not finding this easy to search.
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Jonw65
That 3rd article of stealing some boots could be our Albert as he would have been 15 years of age.
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jonw65
Thanks again for your article. Definitely think that 3 rd article you posted re stealing shoes is my Albert as there are no other Alberts in Norwich at that time as 15 years old.
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Regarding Jonw65's find of the marital problems of Edward, there is this article. You may be able to tell from the marriage year/place or Edward's address if this is your Edward:
Norwich Mercury 23 November 1901
Edward Lincoln, of Pearce's Court, St. Miles', a
labourer, was summoned for deserting his wife.
Complainant said she was married to the defendant
in Colchester in 1878. About two years ago the de-
fendant left her just after dinner. He had that day
taken his pension, and said he was going to pay the
rent, but he never returned. About three months
after that he was sent to prison for neglecting her
and the children, but on his release he did not go
back to her. He sent her 10s. just after he came
out of prison, but all last winter he did not send her
a penny. In the April quarter he sent her 15s., and
during this summer he gave her 5s. a week for about
three months, and in the June quarter a sovereign.
An order of separation was granted, the defendant
being ordered to contribute 9s. a week towards the
maintenance of his wife and children. He was
ordered to pay the costs of the case, 10s.
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Brilliant. That is my great grandad. You have made my week. Fabulous. Anymore?
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The is an earlier article which indicates Mary had two children to support:
Eastern Daily Press 07 July 1900
FATHER GETS 14 DAYS
Edward Lincoln, bricklayer's labourer, of no fixed
residence, was charged on the information of
Inspector Starke of the N.S.P.C.C., with neglecting
and abandoning his two children in a manner likely
to cause them unnecessary suffering and injury to
their health, on June 20th, and divers other dates*. Mr.
Reeve appeared for the prosecution.
Mary Lincoln, prisoner's wife, said she was married
to him at Colchester in April, 1878. He had been a
soldier, and was now receiving a quarterly pension of
£3 8s. 6d. The prisoner had left her on a previous
occasion, but returned again. For a long time he did
not give her any money to get provisions for the
children. Her husband left her on April 2nd,
but she did not know where he went. Prisoner
generally passed his time away by sitting
near the fire smoking his pipe, or reading the papers at
the Free Library. She had supported the two children
by working herself, and by receiving a small sum of
money from an elder daughter. The daughter was
called, and corroborated.
Prisoner's wife admitted that since her husband had
been away, she had received the sum of 12s. from him.
Detective Doe gave evidence as to arresting the
prisoner at Ipswich.
Prisoner was sentenced to 14 days with hard labour.
*The line "June 20th, and divers other dates" is as written in the paper. Not sure what "divers" means; perhaps a misprint.
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*old speak for diverse.
Lincoln1955
If you are a library member, you can access BNA free with your library membership number. If you're not a member of a library, then you should consider joining one, that too is free.
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*old speak for diverse.
Aha! Thank you for that!
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LINCOLN, ALBERT EDWARD 29
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 346
could this be him.
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LINCOLN, ALBERT EDWARD 29
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 346
could this be him.
No we've already discounted him earlier in the thread - he's from a family in Camberwell
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Hi Forguette
Thanks for the tip. I am a library member and also volunteer at one so I need to look into this more.
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Maid of Kent
Thank you for your post but sadly that is not my Albert Edward.
Desparate to find if he ever married, had kids and when he died.
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bbart
Thank you so so much for the posts re my great grandad. I am so so grateful. If you have anymore I would love to see them.
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Anyone else have any ideas how to find what happened to my great uncle Albert Edward?
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He changed his name? he was 'farmed' out to other relations? I ran his date of birth through the 1939 census and came up with Albert Reynolds married to Ethel E living 21 Magpie Rd Great Yarmouth. Doubt if this is him.
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Maid of Kent.
Thanks for your post. Why do you doubt that was him?
Do you think he may have emigrated?
Very grateful for your help.
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Maid of Kent.
Thanks for your post. Why do you doubt that was him?
Do you think he may have emigrated?
Very grateful for your help.
If you check his marriage he;s Albert J Reynolds. Fits well with this birth registraition
Albert J Reynolds
Mother's Maiden Name: Rudling
Oct-Nov-Dec 1911 (if late Sept birth registered a week or so after the event)
Norwich Vol: 4b p205
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Maid of Kent
Hi thank you again. I checked and checked and couldn’t find a birth for this Albert Reynolds especially not in Norwich. Well at least we can rule him out.
Think we know Albert Edward Lincoln lived to at least the age of 15 as I believe the Norwich newspaper article re stolen shoes to be correct as there are no other15 year old Alberts.
I have again today checked all marriages with an Albert Edward Lincoln without any success.
I am so so grateful for your help.
Whatever happened to him??
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Have you checked these LINCOLN deaths:
1955SepQ Edmonton Albert E. 74y
1964MarQ Watford Albert E. 84y
(FreeBMD)
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Hi Forguette
Thank you so so much but yes I have ruled out the above 2 deaths.
1964 March Q Albert E. age 84.,Watford. This is an Albert Edward born 1879 Q2 24/4/1879 St Giles London to William Ellis and Susannah who was an assistant stamp dealer in family business census 1911. Forward to 1939 and he is down as a retired stamp dealer living in Wood Green, Middlessex age 60. Died in Watford 1964 Jan which is nearby and the right age. Don’t think he ever married or had kids.
1955 Sept Q Edmonton, Milddx Albert E age 74. This is an Albert Edward Lincoln who was born 24/10/1880 in Winchester Barracks to Edward and Alice. 1911 census (on front page says born Chester) but when you click on document in is WINCHESTER (so clerical error). He married an Eleanor Crocker Q3 1914 Islington.had 2 kids. His wife died in Edmonton Q1 1965 and he died Edmonton age 74 July 1955.
Thank you again for your help. He must be out there somewhere. None of my relatives lived to a great age.
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Anyone else have any ideas how to locate my great uncle’s death.
Albert Edward Lincoln born 9/5/1881 in Norwich to Edward Walter and Mary Lincoln. Siblings Angus Ager, Beatrice Alice, Alfred, Sydney Walter. Found in 1891 census but not after. Believe at age 15 he was arrested for stealing and pawning shoes/boots. Nothing found after this.
Cannot find in WW1 but don’t feel he died then as his name not carried forward like his deceased brother Sydney Walter.
So very curious to know.
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Would really really appreciate some guidance on what to do next to trace Albert Edward
Incoln born 9/5/1881 in Norwich please. Don’t know where to look next!
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You may not be able to trace him any further. He may be one of the innumerable "Unknown Males" whose bodies were fished out of canals or found dead in the street and who could not be identified at the time of their deaths. They were just registered as "unknown male" when a death certificate was issued. On the other hand, he may have just changed his name to obscure his (apparently) rather wild youth, and he could have become a pillar of society. He may have signed up for WWI using a false identity (lots of young men did - I'm not sure why) and been killed in action, or maintained his false identity. Even now, one can call oneself whatever one wants as long as there is no criminal intent.
So where can you go now? Well, have you tried DNA testing? You would have quite a close match between yourself and any descendants he had. They themselves may be more likely to have tested if they are curious about their origins. Alternately, have you checked every siblings' wedding certificates, wills and other paper trails to see if he acted as a signatory or was a beneficiary etc? Have you tracked down his nephews and nieces, even cousins to see if they have stories in their families which may provide a clue. Finally, there is the 1921 census and more records being put online in the future - you may just have to be patient and hope something comes up eventually.
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Thank you so so much.
All of this is knew to me and I am enjoying finding out about my ancestry as I sadly didn’t know anything before.
I have done DNA testing but nothing has shown up yet.
Very poor family so no wills etc.
Sadly only one sibling married and father on certificate.
Will hopefully getting in touch with some cousins soon. Lived abroad all my childhood a# fathe4vin th3 army so didn’t know extended family.
Maybe as you say an unknown male or changed identity.
Maybe a clerical omission?
Is it just the 1921 records to be released ?
Thanks again. I need to chill out a bit,
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You will be suffering from what I think is the common Family Historian feeling that you cannot believe you may never be able to find something out, and that it will forever be a mystery.
I have a number of queries in my tree which remain frustratingly insoluble despite many efforts, many approaches from different directions, many looking up of different sources.
Not saying this is the case - your missing Albert Edward may turn up unexpectedly, especially if you look everywhere you can think of, and then leave it for a bit and try again.
But I've never found my great grandmother, two grand uncles, and uncle in the 1911 - where WERE they? - and I've now concluded that I probably never will know.
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IgorStrav
Thanks for your post.
It’s so so frustrating! Just want to know. I am becoming obsessed! My dad only died 3 years ago and there are so many unanswered questions.
Can only hope the 1921 census will show up something.
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Reply #2 Cath151 pointed out:
Mary had 7 children, who was the 7th child? Agnes, Beatrice, Albert, Cecil, Alfred, Sydney and who?
(maybe I've missed this)
1901 Thorpe St Andrew Norwich.
A L 22y old a patient, b unknown, Norwich.
Perhaps this is your man?
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Apologies if the latter part of the last post is vague, it came from this:
https://www.rootspoint.com/record/1901-UK-Census/A-L-1879-N-K-Shorpe-Next-Norwich/b2c5f0c0-7f3a-4f3f-aad7-b230de9bb446/
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"Is it just the 1921 records to be released ?"
The 1931 census was destroyed by bombing and 1941 census wasn't taken because of the war, so next after 1921 will be 1951.
But new records come online all the time - on Ancestry and FindMyPast and more newspapers in British Newspaper Archive, and Electoral Rolls, and army records etc, etc. Your great uncle may have had an illegitimate child, whose descendant decides to test at some point. Sometimes you just have to hope you'll strike lucky.
Family history would be no fun if it was too easy ;D
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Forguette
Thank you again for your posts. Thought we were there but sadly my Albert Edward Lincoln was definitely born in 1881 May so he would be 20 in May 1901 and not 22.
Don’t know where the 7 child came from! I would love more details. I have the same children that you listed.
Maybe i should be trying for a shortened name such as Bert or even try 2nd name Edward?
Thanks again.
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alpinecottage
I agree with ‘ no fun if too easy but this just so so so frustrating!!!! I just want to know.
Thanks for posting.
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Forguette
Thank you again for your posts. Thought we were there but sadly my Albert Edward Lincoln was definitely born in 1881 May so he would be 20 in May 1901 and not 22.
Since this poor chap, AL, was in an institution (the County Lunatic Asylum) and unable to give his birthplace, I wouldn't take his age of 22 as gospel. I wonder if you can find him in the same place 10 years later (answering my own question - there is a 29yr old AL there in 1911 who could be the same person) .Worth enquiring whether Norfolk Record Office hold admission registers for this institution?
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Reply #2 Cath151 pointed out:
Mary had 7 children, who was the 7th child? Agnes, Beatrice, Albert, Cecil, Alfred, Sydney and who?
(maybe I've missed this)
1901 Thorpe St Andrew Norwich.
A L 22y old a patient, b unknown, Norwich.
Perhaps this is your man?
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Alpinecottage
So this place is called County Lunatic? Will I be able to find the place in ancestry? Sorry if I am asking a stupid question.
Thanks for posting.
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1901census I have tried the Edward route, also the Bert, Bertie, Herbert, Robert one, and have, so far, discounted all of the latter options and most of the former.
There's an Edward 19, lodger in Croyden and an Alfred, boarder in Bradford still outstanding. If I knew the areas it would be easier, but I don't.
The A L patient, is definitely the most likely, in my opinion.
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Just search with the initials and birthplace Norwich.
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Forguette
Thank you so much. I am so grateful.
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Forguette
Sorry to bother you but I have just tried in ancestry search putting initial A in 1st name box and L in last name box and Norwich but it didn’t come up.
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You're welcome.
Take note of Alpinecottage's post #51. He is 29 in 1911. And the advice to contact Norfolk Records Office.
I'm sorry, I don't use ancestry, perhaps someone else can direct you. Try initials and age and county perhaps?
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Forguette
Thank you for all your time and help. I shall try Norfolk records office.
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https://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/welfare-and-health/accessing-st-andrews-hospital-records
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Forguette
I cannot thank you enough. I have already just this second e.mailed Norfolk records office before I saw your post. I shall await their response but what you have sent a link for will help enormously. My grandma was in a mental initistutaion following the death of her 8 year old son and info will help me further with her story.
You have been so so helpful.
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Don't forget there are the Lunacy Patients Admission Registers, 1846-1912, on ancestry
Complete for county asylums from 1897 except for 1903
No sign of Albert Lincoln
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jonw65
Thank you for your post. I will take a look.
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jonw65
Struggling to know how to search Lunacy Patients Admission Register on ancestry. Can you advise how to please.
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Hi
There's only basic info in the registers, name (first names frequently abbreviated), sex, date of admission, asylum, date of discharge (including death)
Asylum name may sometimes just be a county or city, ancestry have "institution place", but don't always get it right!
So you could just put Lincoln as last name and an admission year plus date range in.
I think there was also a Norwich City Asylum.
John
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It was referred to as Norfolk County lunatic asylum in the newspapers, I think, if my understanding was correct.
John, did you manage to ascertain who A L was?
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Hi
No, I had a go at A L, but it was beyond me!
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Hi Jon
I must be really thick but I just don’t know how to search for Norfolk County Lunatic Asylum in acestry.!!!
Do you know which category I search for please? There are 7 different categories.
1. Census …
2. birth ….
3. Miltatary….
4.Wills and probate
5. Immigration…
6. Schools…..
7. Card Catalogue..
Sorry to bother you.
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Hi
If you are on .co.uk, here
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/9051/
If not, you will have to alter that to .com, or whatever
John
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Hi Jon
Thanks for the link. Be you do me too. Couldn’t find anything on Albert Lincoln