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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: kit54 on Saturday 14 August 21 20:56 BST (UK)
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Please can anyone help me?
I'm trying to find a marriage for a Michael Burn(s)/Byrne(s) to an Elizabeth (possibly Lloyd), sometime between the 1851 Census and about 1857/8 in Liverpool.
It was Michael's second marriage, his father was Henry Burn(s)/Byrne(s), Labourer.
Michael was born in Ireland, about 1812, and was a Catholic, but Elizabeth was born in Wrexham, so this marriage might not be in a Catholic church. The family are on the 1861 Census:
1861 Chisendale St., Liverpool
Michael Burns H M 50 Coal Heaver I
Elizabeth Burns Wife 33 Wrexham
Henry Burns S 18 Joiner Liverpool
Richard Burns S 16 Labr Liverpool
Anne Burns D 11 Scholar Liverpool
Elizabeth Burns D 4 Scholar Liverpool
Mary Burns D 2 Liverpool
NB The first 3 children are from Michael's first marriage.
I'd be very grateful for any help,
Thanks,
Kit
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There is this marriage
Marriages Jun 1851
Burns Michael Liverpool 20 324
One of the brides is an Elizabeth Magee. Might be worth following up in case it was her second marriage so she wouldn't appear as a Lloyd.
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Who was his first wife & when did she die?
Have you checked freebmd for the youngest children's births then used GRO online to look for mmn?
Can't see an 1851 entry for Michael and eldest children??
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There is this marriage
Marriages Jun 1851
Burns Michael Liverpool 20 324
One of the brides is an Elizabeth Magee. Might be worth following up in case it was her second marriage so she wouldn't appear as a Lloyd.
Michael Burns married Ann Fitzpatrick in 1851 so not your marriage. (from LancsBMD)
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1851 they are at Walkers Court, Liverpool
Mcl BYRNE 36 dock lab. born Ireland
Ann 26 born Ireland
Henry 8 born Liverpool
Richard 5 born Liverpool
Ann 2 born Liverpool
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Many thanks to you all for your kind replies.
Michael married first, Ann Dudley on 21/9/1841 in St Martins in the Fields.
The last definite thing I have on her is her 1851 Census record; so she must have died after 1851, but there are several possible deaths/burials, as the name is so common, with different spellings.
I'm trying to find his second marriage because that might help me narrow down when she died.
Michael and Elizabeth had, baptised at Our Lady of Reconciliation, (RC):
Elizabeth Byrns bap 14/6/1857 and Mary Burns bap 24/4/1861
AND for both, there is a Birth registered with the GRO, showing MMN: Lloyd
So, this narrows it down a bit.
I have spent ages trying to find this marriage, but have failed, which is why I posted!
Thanks,
Kit
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I believe that Mary Burns (baptised 1861) is my great grandmother. My great grandfather,Thomas Hobson, married Mary Burns in 1877 at St. Augustine’s church. According to the marriage certificate her father was Michael Burns. Have we been researching the same people?
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Is this your family?
Ancestry........Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms 1741-1919
https://www.ancestry.com.au/search/collections/2180/
Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette (birth/baptism date)
BYRNS Elizabeth 3/14 June 1857
parents: Michael BYRNS / Elizabeth LOYD
godparents: Arthur RYAN / Elizabeth PLACE
BYRNES Maria 24 Mar / 25 Apr 1861
parents: Michaelis BYRNS / Elisabeth LOYD
godparents: Maria Anna PHILIPS
BYRNES Helena 11/13/July 1965
parents: Michaelis BYRNES / Elisabeth LLOYD
godparents: Thomas SINOTT *** SINOTT
St Augustines Liverpool 14 Jul 1877 marriage
HOBSON Thomas Regent St father Joannis
BURNS Mariam Porter St father Michaelis
witnesses: Owen COYLE, Porter St / Margarita GARLAND, Porter St
HOBSON Thomas Henricus 28/31 Jul 1878
parents: Thomas / Mariae BURNS
godparents: Petrus COSGROVE / Maria BRADY
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Un named female child registered Liverpool 1851 mmn Dudley Vol 20 page 318. December Quarter.
It would be interesting to see the birth certificate.
I haven't found a baptism and not with the family in 1861 so there it's possible mother and child died shortly after wards
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Yes.This is my family. Thomas Henry Hobson is the eldest brother of my grandfather George Hobson, born September 1896.
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Hi,
Thanks very much to you all for your kind replies which are very interesting.
Please, have you got the GRO Marriage Cert for the 1877 marriage? It's just that I researched this family a while ago and I noticed that there were another Michael and Ann Burns, who were having children born about the same time - they lived in Milk Street/Upper Milk Street and he was a Tailor. I'm afraid that I no longer have my research notes. This would confirm that the Mary and Michael Byrnes are the same family as "mine", as "my" Michael was a Dock Labourer/Coal Heaver.
Also, re Helena Byrnes bap 13/7/1965 - do you mean 13/7/1865? - I'm struggling to find this on the www.gro.gov.uk site.
Thanks very much,
Kit
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Hi,
Thanks very much to you all for your kind replies which are very interesting.
Please, have you got the GRO Marriage Cert for the 1877 marriage? It's just that I researched this family a while ago and I noticed that there were another Michael and Ann Burns, who were having children born about the same time - they lived in Milk Street/Upper Milk Street and he was a Tailor. I'm afraid that I no longer have my research notes. This would confirm that the Mary and Michael Byrnes are the same family as "mine", as "my" Michael was a Dock Labourer/Coal Heaver.
Also, re Helena Byrnes bap 13/7/1965 - do you mean 13/7/1865? - I'm struggling to find this on the www.gro.gov.uk site.
Thanks very much,
Kit
I have the 1877 marriage certificate of Mary Burns and Thomas Hobson. Mary Burns is the daughter of Michael Burns (Labourer) and is living at 21 Porter Street. Thomas Hobson is the son of John Hobson (Labourer) and is living at 7 Regent Street. The marriage took place at the Catholic Church of St.Augustine’s on 14th July 1877.
My sister is also researching this from another angle and she believes that Mary Burns mothers maiden name was Elizabeth Lloyd. She thinks that Elizabeth was christened in Llangwym, Corwen.
We have also found that Helena Burns was baptised at Our Lady of Reconciliation Church, Liverpool. Her birth date was 11th July 1856 and she was baptised on 13 th July 1856.
Thomas Hobson is my great grandfather.
Hope this helps any other researchers.
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Hi, Thanks very much for that - I'm now as sure as I can be that "your" Mary and Michael are "mine" too.
But my real interest is Michael's first wife, Ann Dudley; I'd really like to find a burial for her - I'm really struggling due to the fact that the surname is very common and is spelt in so many different ways. Also, she was a protestant when she married Michael, who was a catholic, so I'm not sure what faith she was when she was buried! I don't know if she converted to catholicism, but presume that she did? I'd appreciate any thoughts on this.
Finally have you got this:
1851 Census Everton > ALL > 1q
35 Everton Village
Elizabeth Lloyd Servant 23 b Wrexham
I think that this is Mary's mother.
BUT we need to find her marriage to Michael!
Kit
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There is an Ann Burns age 28 buried St Martin in the Fields Liverpool 4 June 1852.
She was from the Work House, but that was often the only place to go to get hospital care.
Bishops Transcripts on ancestry.
Image 283 has the heading for the Cemetery, Ann is on image 298
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Hi,
Thank you very much for that - I have seen this record before, but was very doubtful as it stated that she was from the Workhouse, and as far as I knew, this family were never in the workhouse, but your explanation sheds new light on this, and has made me think again. I will try to see if I can find a Workhouse admission/discharge for this Ann Burns, as this might just prove it one way or the other.
Thanks very much again; I really appreciate your help,
Kit
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Please can anyone help?
If Ann did convert to Catholicism, presumably after her marriage, would she have been baptised in a similar way as a child would have been, and would there have been any sort of record?
Thanks,
Kit
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Ann Burns died in the workhouse because she had fever here's a transcript and access to the image via the link below when signed in on Family Search.
Admitted: 20th May 1852, age: 28, religion: protestant, order number: 1476, located: fever house, settlement: Irish, Discharged: 2nd June 1852, Died in the fever house
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-QFTX-Y?cat=507318
Blue
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Thank you Blue70.
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Bless you Blue70 for that - there is a big grin on my face!
Please, one final thing, does anyone know, on this record, when it says:
"Settlement and Remarks" - is that definitely the place of birth - it's just that, if this is "my" Ann, then she had been living in Liverpool, I reckon, for the best part of 15 years!
Thanks,
Kit
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So she definitely didn't become a Catholic. That doesn't surprise me. There is no obligation to become a Catholic to get married to a Catholic in a Catholic church today - and there wasn't in the nineteenth century either.
The only requirement was for both bride and groom to promise to bring the children up as Catholics. It's worth pointing out that if you look at the godparents on a Catholic baptism, they will nearly always turn out to be family. Surnames you don't recognise will usually turn out to be those of married sisters of the bride or groom, which allows you to explore the wider family with comparative ease. It's definitely worth checking.
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Thanks Joney - that's very informative and useful. I've been looking a little more into this, and I have come across a few adult RC baptisms, but as far as I can see, not one for Ann.
So, if "my" Ann was the one discharged from the Workhouse on 2/6/1852, then she did not convert to catholicism. What a shame that on the workhouse record, no address is stated, as I know that the family were living in Porter Street on the 1851 Census - this would have made it more certain (or not), that it was her.
Thanks again,
Kit
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Yes, the records always fail to give an address when you really need one to be certain you have the right person. It's not just you being unlucky. Compared with most areas of England, because it was a major port for travel to and from Ireland, the RC population in Liverpool grew very quickly and spread out into Lancashire and beyond. I've got several examples of mixed marriages from the 1850s. If you have been brought up in one religious tradition, I can't see that meeting somebody from another is really going to make you want to change. It might make you see Catholics as less 'alien', but that's about it in my opinion. Keep digging anyway. You never know what you may find.
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It's possible the death certificate could contain some information confirming it is definitely her. For women under the occupation column it will often have widow or wife of (name & occupation and sometimes an address of husband). A PDF of the death entry costs £7 from the GRO:-
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
BURNS, ANN 28
1852
J Quarter
LIVERPOOL
Volume 08B
Page 179
Blue
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Thanks Joney and Blue for your kind replies. It makes me wonder what Ann did on a Sunday - did she go to a C of E Church, whilst the rest of her family, including the kids go to a RC Church, (I can definitely see the advantage with this!).
The upshot is that in order to make certain that it is her, I think that I need the Death Cert - and thank you very much Blue for providing me with all that info.
Thank you very much again,
Kit