RootsChat.Com

Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Katharine75 on Sunday 15 August 21 07:08 BST (UK)

Title: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: Katharine75 on Sunday 15 August 21 07:08 BST (UK)
Hi all. I am busily looking up records on the NSWHLRV at the moment learning how to use it (very complex at first but I'm getting the hang of it).
I am wondering if someone can advise me.

I have three blocks of land granted in a town. 2 of the blocks are purchased in 1861 and I found them in the Old System Records and I managed to track down the original deed (?) but it doesn't give any further reference numbers or details to follow this forward in time. I already have maps of the blocks.
I have tried LRS to convert street address to VOL-FOL but the number is volume number is too high and I would have to order the document (which I don't want to at present).
All I have is the year, serial number, page number. Is there any other way to search for more on these two blocks at NSWHLRV?

For the third block located in the town, again I have the original deed (?) from Old system register and records, but the street address and all nearby blocks are not recognised in LRS when I try to convert to a VOL-FOL. Block is not built on. From the satellite map it looks like the whole block is now under one range of numbers (title?) but when I click on it LRS just tells me it invalid. Any ideas?

Thanks, Katharine.
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 August 21 07:51 BST (UK)
Hi all. I am busily looking up records on the NSWHLRV at the moment learning how to use it (very complex at first but I'm getting the hang of it).
I am wondering if someone can advise me.

I have three blocks of land granted in a town. 2 of the blocks are purchased in 1861 and I found them in the Old System Records and I managed to track down the original deed (?) but it doesn't give any further reference numbers or details to follow this forward in time. I already have maps of the blocks.
I have tried LRS to convert street address to VOL-FOL but the number is volume number is too high and I would have to order the document (which I don't want to at present).
All I have is the year, serial number, page number. Is there any other way to search for more on these two blocks at NSWHLRV?

For the third block located in the town, again I have the original deed (?) from Old system register and records, but the street address and all nearby blocks are not recognised in LRS when I try to convert to a VOL-FOL. Block is not built on. From the satellite map it looks like the whole block is now under one range of numbers (title?) but when I click on it LRS just tells me it invalid. Any ideas?

Thanks, Katharine.


Do you have the parish maps showing those 3 blocks .... if so, there are reference numbers  for each block,  so the CP (conditional purchase) etc .... and other handwritten details in those survey-drafter drawn plans..  :)

I am not at my home, so I don't have my trusty reference book and it's lockdown covid at the moment. 

I did up a thread some years ago which gave live link to a PDF that may help. 

JM
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 August 21 08:00 BST (UK)
I think you ate looking for the:

Old Form Torrens Title...

Is that right?

JM
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: Katharine75 on Sunday 15 August 21 09:38 BST (UK)
Hi JM
I just went back and checked and as I thought, it only has the lot number on each block of land, then the section number.
Yes, looking for Torrens records as the one I have is pretty much towards end of old system records.
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 August 21 10:07 BST (UK)
If you send me a PM  I will help find the DP number

JM
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: Katharine75 on Friday 20 August 21 08:45 BST (UK)
A further issue with land records that I have is an ancestor sold a parcel of land in West Tamworth in 1875 as I have the land record.
It lists the purchaser, but I can't see anything else relevant that will help me find the original purchase earlier by my ancestor.
Any tips for searching that one?

Thank, Katharine.
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: majm on Friday 20 August 21 23:44 BST (UK)
Have you found the Purchase Number? 

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/conditional-purchase-crown-land-guide

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/webinars/mini-webinar-finding-certificate-land-title-numbers

The National Library of Australia has an online guide too...  :)  it has a good explanation re finding the purchase number...
https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/australian-maps-for-family-historians/using-parish-town-and-county-maps   


I am popping some live links here for future references for others who may read this thread in the future.

Mr Gleeson's book is featured in the thread :  https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=678243.0

LRS Search guide is featured in the thread : https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=777978.1  (updated at reply 1)

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/webinars/crown-plans
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/webinars/archives-in-your-town-tamworth
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/webinars/researching-your-house-and-property
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/webinars/pre-1856-land-tenure-records
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/webinars/mini-webinar-how-to-read-parish-map
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/webinars/mini-webinar-finding-certificate-land-title-numbers
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/webinars/mini-webinar-reading-certificates-title-old-system-vs-torrens-title

JM
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: Katharine75 on Saturday 21 August 21 08:14 BST (UK)
Thanks for links JM.

I should also have added that the land in question in located in (West) Tamworth which only shows on the town maps at NSWHLRV as Private Town.
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: Katharine75 on Saturday 21 August 21 09:04 BST (UK)
But I do see on the deed in question that it has a Deposited Deeds Packet No.
I assume I can do something with that?
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: majm on Saturday 21 August 21 09:10 BST (UK)
Yes, Yes, Yes.   ;D  ;D  ;D

JM
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: majm on Saturday 21 August 21 09:11 BST (UK)
https://www.nswlrs.com.au/Public-Register/General-Register-of-Deeds

JM
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: Katharine75 on Saturday 21 August 21 11:42 BST (UK)
I read that, but am confused now. Does that mean I need to have a search done and pay for a record, or am I able to search it myself on the HLRV?
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: Katharine75 on Friday 27 August 21 07:36 BST (UK)
Hi JM.
Not sure if you saw my last post regarding the deposited deeds number. I have tried everyway I can to use it in HLRV to find something relevant, but nothing comes up.
I have just called the NSW Land Registry and was told that with regard to the number I have, she didn't know what that would be, and they don't have any numbers like that.

I also asked if I could use that number to pay for a record, but she just told me to use the HLRV.

Can you help further?
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: Katharine75 on Friday 27 August 21 07:48 BST (UK)
Actually I just found on page 49/50 of the following document that the deposited deeds numbers that are stamped on the land records, are only available in hardcopy.
https://www.nswlrs.com.au/getattachment/515c97fd-d3f0-4020-a394-69aaffb6a72f/attachment.aspx

So, I just rang back the NSW Land Registry and spoke to the same person. This time she was incredibly rude and told me she didn't know what I was talking about. I then quoted the document and reference, and she rattled off something about government departments changed more that 14 years ago. Now that information is supersceeded and she can't help me. Very rude - should not be manning the phone in my opinion.  >:(
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: majm on Friday 27 August 21 21:14 BST (UK)
Sadly I am not surprised to read of that horrid experience.   Our NSW government sold to private enterprise the responsibilities involved in Land Titles. 

I have no answer to  help you find the original owner via online title searchings except by persisting with that website.  But remember that sometimes we can blind ourselves, and miss seeing the wood for all the trees.   :D

So ...  :) well ....   In my opinion, some aspects of effective government administration ought never be sold off to private enterprise... 

Perhaps if you step back ... even just for a week or so,  and then re focus on the fundamental aspect you want to resolve, then brainstorm that, looking for alternative ways to solve ....

So apart from title deed searching... where else could you find land transfer info .... perhaps in a Probate file for someone who died in that era in that locality...  look through NSW bdm deaths ... surname as asterisk, but enter the bdm district (sometimes same as County or shire or nwarby town but not always) then with name and Date of death look for deceased estate file and for probate packet at NSW archives..... yes, a total stranger, not a family ancestor... public records... anyone can access.

And worse still... just imagine if the NSW BDM was privatised...... and 14 years after that someone asked a question that is not listed in their training manual.....   e.g.  what does AGED 049 mean in column headed father's given name .... (it actually only means the deceased was aged 49 years when he/She died but the informant did not know the given name of the deceased's father)

Yes, the private enterprise receives no revenue to offset their expenses in providing access to those historic records, but they undertook that task as part of their responsibilities.

 :)

Climbing down from MAJM lectern now,  I wish there was a smilieface with a foot stamping tantrum.   Right hand pointer finger needs a rest.  :o please excuse spelling mistakes.

ADD ....  Katharine75, my ancient rellies say ... let the info settle,  look again in a fortnight.  The phonecall person, sadly, has no real understanding of the fundamentals. 

JM

Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: majm on Saturday 28 August 21 01:29 BST (UK)
An important question .... (from one of my ancient rellies !  :D )


Have you accessed the 1851 plan that was used up until 1889?   And is held at NSW State Archives?

https://records-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/permalink/f/1e5kcq1/INDEX1480105 

or other plans at NSW State Archives prepared by that Surveyor-Drafter
https://records-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/permalink/f/1e5kcq1/INDEX1260605

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/surveyors-letters  John James GALLOWAY as the Surveyor

JM
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: Katharine75 on Saturday 28 August 21 04:51 BST (UK)
A further issue with land records that I have is an ancestor sold a parcel of land in West Tamworth in 1875 as I have the land record.
It lists the purchaser, but I can't see anything else relevant that will help me find the original purchase earlier by my ancestor.
Any tips for searching that one?

Thank, Katharine.

The links you gave me I shall investigate as they might help with the intitial posting of land in Bendemeer.

My other issue is related to this quoted block in West Tamworth NSW. I have now sent a query to the historical society to see if they can assist.

From what I have gathered the Peel River Land & Mineral Company owned this land and established it as a private town. So when you look at the Town Maps on HRLV that is how it is marked. Allotments are number with sections alphabetical and that is the only information given, so no original purchaser or further numbers.

From the title deeds I did find, I have located the exact location of the blocks on the Private Town part of plans, and can pinpoint the location today. I have investigated the blocks through using the LRS search but come to a standstill as the records are not available on HRLV.

I am just wanting to know when he purchased the block that was sold in 1875. There are no other names on the deed but the vendor (my ancestor) and the purchaser, and the deposited deeds packet number stamped at the top. I am only guessing this might be the original purchase that my ancestor made? I also wonder if he purchased it directly from the Company - but this is probably more than 20 years since they were established.

I am only just starting on this but I had read in that apparently  ::) now outdated guide that I can search this number at the kiosk/computer located in the Lands Registry office. I don't know if that is still the case though.

I am thinking I might start looking for the new purchaser transferring the land. Maybe it will give some further details on the previous transactions.

Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: Katharine75 on Saturday 28 August 21 10:07 BST (UK)
EUREKA!! Problem solved for the Tamworth block!
I found the record I was after now. I knew that the Peel River Company originally held the land so I went back to that time period and traced it forward through the vendors index using the company as my starting surname. It was sold to someone, who then sold it to my ancestor in 1873.
 ;D
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: majm on Sunday 29 August 21 05:42 BST (UK)
Well Done.  Fantastic,   you must be over  the moon.

My ancient rellies send their Congrats  to K.75.

Seriously,  it is a huge achievement and it is the bestest piece of sleuthing when, despite so many admin  obstacles  you "beat the system". 

Archival material should not be locked up and hidden so far away from ordinary viewing that even those protecting it don't even understand how useful it still is.   

It won't be long before NO-ONE can understand that once upon a time,  people - righted handed males - trained for years to become draftsmen - and   actually made those plans sitting on stools in front of a drawing board in the drawing office from notes and sketches sent from the Surveyor and his team in the field.   Nowadays you send a drone up, GPS, point cloud, Survey software, etc.   

I am  a Right handed FEMALE of a certain age,  a trained draftsman (as per my formal certification from early 170s....)  My training is in the Mechanical Engineering Field and I co-own a Mechanical Engineering Design Drafting  service.  So I have re-trained several times to suit technologies. 

JM.
Title: Re: NSW Land Records online - help please
Post by: Katharine75 on Sunday 29 August 21 07:34 BST (UK)
Thankyou, I was very happy to solve it!
Thanks again for your assistance. I am off to solve some other mysteries now.....
 ;D