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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Gortinanima on Monday 16 August 21 13:25 BST (UK)

Title: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: Gortinanima on Monday 16 August 21 13:25 BST (UK)
James Tierney (born c 1866 Co Monaghan) married Frances (Fanny) Pawley/Pauley/Polly (born c1866 Co Tyrone) - resident 1901 census at 39 Friendly  Street, Belfast:

They had issue:
Mary Catherine Tierney c.1889 probably Belfast
James Tierney 24 Jan 1892 (1 Campbell's Place, Belfast)
Thomas Tierney 15 June 1895 (2 Campbell's Place, Belfast)
John Tierney 6 Nov 1898 (39 Stanfield Place, Belfast)
Andrew Tierney 16 May 1902 (3 Roy Place, Belfast) died 27 July 1906 at 44 Keegan St, Belfast
Andrew Tierney 17 Dec 1907 (44 Keegan St, Belfast)
Sarah Tierney 27 May 1910 (20 Catherine Street North, Belfast)

I cannot locate marriage in civil registration online at GRONI or Irish Genealogy.ie

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 16 August 21 14:38 BST (UK)
Mary Catherine Tierney c.1889 probably Belfast

There is a Pauley birth in Belfast then
Mary Catherine
born 5 September 1889 at 13 Lemon Street
Father George Pauley, Shoemaker
Mother Fanny Pauley, formerly Bell
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02466/1916008.pdf
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: culbaire on Monday 16 August 21 20:57 BST (UK)
Link to Fanny Pawley birth 1866
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03517/2293622.pdf
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 16 August 21 23:02 BST (UK)
Mary Catherine
born 5 September 1889 at 13 Lemon Street
Father George Pauley, Shoemaker
Mother Fanny Pauley, formerly Bell

There was also son William James, born 1st June 1888, at 18 Ormond Street.
Father George Pauley a Labourer. Mother Fanny Pauley, formerly Bell, who registered the birth
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02519/1933611.pdf

William James Pawley died the following year, 8 Dec 1889, age 1, at 11 Galway Street
Mother Fanny Pawley registered the death.
She said that WJ was the child of George Pawley, deceased, Shoemaker
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1889/06127/4749950.pdf

Is there a death of a George Pauley/Pawley?
Or a marriage of George and Fanny Bell?
Is this line of enquiry a red herring? :-\
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 16 August 21 23:08 BST (UK)
James Tierney (born c 1866 Co Monaghan) married Frances (Fanny) Pawley/Pauley/Polly (born c1866 Co Tyrone) - resident 1901 census at 39 Friendly  Street, Belfast:

They had issue

Here they are in 1901 in Friendly Street
James is a General Labourer. Family are Roman Catholic
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000332877/

1911 in  Pouna Street.
James Tierney not at home.
Fanny Tierney, married, is Head of Family. Tells us she is Presbyterian, with the children being Roman Catholic.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001537318/
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 16 August 21 23:36 BST (UK)
Baptisms to George Pauley / Fanny Bell
William James 1888
Mary Catherine 1889

Baptisms to James Tierney / Pauley
James 1892 (mother Fanny)
Thomas 1895 (mother Frances)

Don't know exact dates or locations.
There may of course be more after Thomas, but not in the index I am looking at.
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 16 August 21 23:47 BST (UK)
Andrew Tierney 16 May 1902 (3 Roy Place, Belfast) died 27 July 1906 at 44 Keegan St, Belfast

Death here
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05556/4559298.pdf

Accidentally scalded with boiling water.
Inquest held 28 July 1906.

Report in the Belfast Newsletter, 31 July 1906, mother Fanny gave evidence.
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 16 August 21 23:56 BST (UK)
Mary Catherine Tierney married William Ponisi in Belfast in 1907. Apparently she died in Belfast in 1961.

Is it still the case that you can make a FoI request for info from the 1939 Register for Northern Ireland and that it is free? You need an address.
Might be handy to see what Mary gave as her date of birth.
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/1939-national-register.html
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: eileenwilson on Thursday 19 August 21 15:50 BST (UK)
Have you looked in Scotland for the marriage?
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: Gortinanima on Thursday 19 August 21 16:14 BST (UK)
Have you looked in Scotland for the marriage?

Yes I had a look on Scotland's People.
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: jonw65 on Thursday 19 August 21 16:57 BST (UK)
What about all the other replies you have had.
Are you not going to respond to them?
Was George Pauley the shoemaker a fiction made up by Fanny?
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: heywood on Thursday 19 August 21 17:20 BST (UK)
Is there anything known of James Tierney other than born 1866, Co Monaghan?

Following on from Jonís post, I wonder if Fanny Pawley made up the Bell/George Pauley names on the birth of Mary Catherine.

Then, though, you would wonder why she (apparently) did not marry James.
Was he already married perhaps?
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: Gortinanima on Thursday 19 August 21 17:58 BST (UK)
What about all the other replies you have had.
Are you not going to respond to them?
Was George Pauley the shoemaker a fiction made up by Fanny?

I am currently on vacation for a few days and get back home tomorrow. As it is I only have my phone so it is difficult to work. And my notes are at home.

Thanks to those who have responded.
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 20 August 21 15:35 BST (UK)
1911 in  Pouna Street.
James Tierney not at home.
Fanny Tierney, married, is Head of Family. Tells us she is Presbyterian, with the children being Roman Catholic.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001537318/

She put length of marriage as 20 years. Eldest child at home on the census was 19. (Caveat. Length of marriage for one of my families on 1911 census was wrong to fit with ages of eldest 2 children  from earlier marriages.)
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: heywood on Friday 20 August 21 15:41 BST (UK)
Good point Maiden Stone.
That would exclude Mary Catherine from the children of the marriage.
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: Gortinanima on Friday 20 August 21 20:06 BST (UK)
Thanks everyone for your contribution - there is indeed a mystery at the heart of this -

There is no George Pawley & Fanny Bell marriage registered

There is no George Pawley death registered

There is no James Tierney & Jane Pawley (Bell) marriage registered

Yet there is a Fanny Pawley birth recorded 1866 in Co Tyrone daughter of Andrew Pawley (2 boys were named Andrew children of James Tierney & Fanny Pawley --- one dying young).
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: gaffy on Friday 20 August 21 23:18 BST (UK)

Baptisms to George Pauley / Fanny Bell
William James 1888
Mary Catherine 1889


The baptism transcripts I'm seeing throw a different light on it, I've little doubt they read across to the children registered as William James Pauley in 1888 and Mary Catherine Pauley in 1889.

A William James Pauley was baptised in St. Peter's, Belfast, on 12 June 1888, the date of birth given as 3 June.  The mother was recorded as Frances Pauley of 18 Ormond Street, the father's name was not recorded, the sponsor was a Mary Bloomer.

A Mary Catherine Bell was baptised in St. Mary's, Belfast, on 23 August 1889, the date of birth given as 16 August.  The parents were recorded as George Bell and Frances Polly of Townsend Street, the sponsor was a Catherine Cullen.

Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 21 August 21 09:53 BST (UK)
The baptism transcripts I'm seeing throw a different light on it

They certainly do, Gaffy (well done!)

I've little doubt they read across to the children registered as William James Pauley in 1888 and Mary Catherine Pauley in 1889.

I was going from the free index on UHF, but they do include births, and it seems they include "civil birth records for Belfast (incomplete)"
Possibly that is the explanation, I must be more careful!
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: gaffy on Saturday 21 August 21 10:03 BST (UK)

... I was going from the free index on UHF, but they do include births, and it seems they include "civil birth records for Belfast (incomplete)"


Yes, the UHF index has civil records as well, that's probably what happened. I now doubt if George Pauley existed, I wouldn't be surprised if George Bell didn't exist either, there was clearly some fabrication going on by Fanny.  Which also makes me more uncertain whether she and James actually got married. 

Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: marykatequinn on Wednesday 17 November 21 16:17 GMT (UK)
I too am researching James Tierney and Fanny Pauley.

My great grandfather was Andrew Tierney.  There was an Andrew born in 1902 who died then my gg was born a few years later and called after him.

I am totally confused by Fanny Pauley and unable to find anything on her, James or this George person!

I would be interested if you have any steering.  The fact that James tierney was no longer there in 1911 census is also a mystery. 

Just pointing out - When Fanny had her first born William, she would have only been 16 years old.  I cannot see how she was married prior to that.  I am uncertain of a birth cert for her, but she was 29 years old in the 1901 census.

Hope to hear from you.

Thanks
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: Wexflyer on Wednesday 17 November 21 22:37 GMT (UK)
I am uncertain of a birth cert for her, but she was 29 years old in the 1901 census.

That age could easily be an underestimate by 10+ years..... In 1911, 10 years later, she is stated to be 47!
Title: Re: Looking for Tierney - Pawley marriage circa 1888
Post by: Wexflyer on Wednesday 17 November 21 22:44 GMT (UK)
Link to Fanny Pawley birth 1866
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03517/2293622.pdf

The Fanny Pawley born 1866 in Co. Tyrone was baptized Catholic. That is inconsistent with religion as stated on the 1911 census (Prestbyterian),  but consistent with 1901.