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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: kerrmain on Tuesday 24 August 21 06:48 BST (UK)
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Hi all, I am trying to find burials and monumental inscriptions for my Great, Great Grandparents who were John Kerr and Christina Kerr (nee Strain). I am unable to find a birth for John born approx 1816 to John Kerr and Mary Braidwood. He died at age 81 on 24th January 1897 at Wishaw, Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire. His wife Christina Kerr (maiden surname Strain) died on 3rd June 1922 also at Wishaw, and was 85 years old. Her parents were William Strain and Barbara Smith.
Any assistance in finding there places of interment would be much appreciated :) :)
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Hello Kerrmain,
I vowed back at the beginning of February that I would never become involved in another person's query unless it had a direct link to my own tree. However, on reading your post today I felt it would be churlish not to reply, hopefully you will not be as rude and insulting to me as the previous member was back on February 1st.
The family you are looking for are interred in the old burial ground at Cambusnethan village in Wishaw. It is the churchyard attached to what is now the ruined old parish church of Cambusnethan and this is all situated next to the municipal cemetery.
The written records for this part of the burial ground only begin in earnest from about 1875. From 1860 onwards, there are records of individual interments mixed in with the gravediggers day book from the municipal cemetery but these records are not complete. Prior to 1860 all the records were kept in the gravediggers head!
So, according to the written records (1875 +) there are only 2 interments in that plot. Namely -
JOHN KERR, aged 81 years. Interred in the centre plot - 27th January 1897.
CHRISTINA KERR, aged 85 years, interred in the centre plot - 6th June 1922.
No other burials recorded for that lair in the "Lair book" and according to that record, the lair was owned by John Kerr and C. Strain.
However, after a trawl through several books, I found the following four entries mixed in with pauper burials in the new (municipal) cemetery records.
MARY KERR, Wishaw, aged 5 years.
Parents - John Kerr & Christina Strain.
Interred in the old churchyard on 26th October 1866.
JOHN KERR, Wishaw, aged 11 years.
Parents - John Kerr & Christina Strain.
Interred in the old churchyard on 18th January 1871.
BARBARA KERR, Wishaw, aged 4 years.
Parents - John Kerr & Christina Strain.
Interred in the old churchyard on 20th February 1872.
CHRISTINA KERR, Wishaw, aged 8 years.
Parents - John Kerr & Christina Strain.
Interred in the old churchyard on 2nd April 1872.
(I would take a guess and say that these 4 children all died from Cholera, which was rife in this area at that time).
The icing on this particular cake is - There is a stone at this lair.
The inscription reads -
"Erected by John Kerr in memory of his three brothers, William who died 4th September 1835 aged 16 years. George who died 1st January 1839 aged 37 years and Thomas who died 2nd March 1839 aged 16 years. Also his mother Mary Braidwood who died 9th July 1854 aged 76 years".
Here is a not very good picture, I will try and go back over and take a better one, this was taken a few years ago but I think the stone should still be there.
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I vowed back at the beginning of February that I would never become involved in another person's query unless it had a direct link to my own tree. However, on reading your post today I felt it would be churlish not to reply, hopefully you will not be as rude and insulting to me as the previous member was back on February 1st.
Awhh, Lodger :'( Is that why you haven't been posting. Please don't let one person put you off (there is always one and all of that :-\)
You have so much knowledge to share and are truly appreciated by many :-*
Monica
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Thanks Monica but I'll not be getting involved in very much on this board, the PM I received from one particular member was the last straw. I would very much have liked to have had my details removed from this site but it seems there is no way of doing that!
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Sad to hear that :-\
Monica
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Lodger,
Thank you so much for this information :) Not only have you found my Great Great Grandparents but also the final resting place of some of their children as well. There were actually 7 children in all and only 2 survived to adulthood, one of them being my Great Grandfather, William, who migrated to Australia and married my Great Grandmother Jessie Smellie in Sydney Australia back in 1889.
I have a copy of the Cambusnethan Old Parish Churchyard Monumental Inscriptions booklet and none of this family is listed in it so wow! this is quite a discovery for me and it also ties in the Monumental Inscription (which is in the booklet) that John Kerr had erected for his brothers and mother Mary Braidwood. I have copies of the death registrations (from Scotlands People) for each of the children that you mentioned and there causes of death were shown as Suffocation of the lung, Fever and three of them from Scarlatina (scarlet fever maybe or would this have been Cholera as you suggested). So sad to think that you have 7 children and only 2 survived past the age of 11. I have had many frustrations with researching my Scottish family ancestors, especially those from this area of Lanarkshire. Births, Deaths and marriages just seem non existant in records that I am able to view online from Australia so the information you have provided is invaluable to me. Once I start looking into the late 1700's I find I am no longer able to definitely confirm that the name I am looking at is actually the one that belongs on my family tree and I don't like to add a name to my tree unless I can see the definite link there.
It saddens me greatly to know that you have been treated poorly by someone on this forum when you obviously are trying to do your best to help them with their family tree, afterall we are all interested in the same objective which is to find out where we came from and what made us who we are and of course a love of history and research. My apologies for waffling on...
You are the best :) :)
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Can I echo what MonicaL and kerrmain have said Lodger...... I to have found you a have a vast wealth of interesting knowledge and I keenly read your answers I have no connection to this post and sad to say nothing to help kerrmain but to hear you have to put up with abuse no matter what kind and that makes you want to stop inputting on this site is very sad as I can honestly say in reading a lot of your posts/answers how helpful you make this journey of joining the dots of the past easier good luck sir I hope you change your mind but if not please believe there is more praise for you than abuse way more.
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Thank you for your very kind words Garngad (Shouldn't we be calling you Roystonhill nowadays? 8)) but I have made up my mind not to become involved with anything - or anyone - that doesn't directly concern my own posts. The "RootsChat Veteran" who was so rude hasn't signed-in for 2 months now but he has been a member for 11 years.
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I shall miss your knowledge and wisdom Jim, you have a unique skillset which has benefited so many including myself over the years and for that I thank you.
Don
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Thank you for your very kind words Garngad (Shouldn't we be calling you Roystonhill nowadays? 8)) but I have made up my mind not to become involved with anything - or anyone - that doesn't directly concern my own posts. The "RootsChat Veteran" who was so rude hasn't signed-in for 2 months now but he has been a member for 11 years.
Hi Lodger, I wrote to you on your Cambusnethan thread about MIs for a couple. I understand from your post here why you have been away, but if I could please ask for your help again, my ancestors were Robert Black and Margaret Dalziel of Cambusnethan. He died 1851-55 and she died before 1841. Would really appreciate anything. Thank you
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Yer welcome Lodger/jim keep going for as long as you can........ bytheway it will always be The Garngad (good & bad) no matter how many name changes they ??? who know best make....H.
Thank you for your very kind words Garngad (Shouldn't we be calling you Roystonhill nowadays? 8)) but I have made up my mind not to become involved with anything - or anyone - that doesn't directly concern my own posts. The "RootsChat Veteran" who was so rude hasn't signed-in for 2 months now but he has been a member for 11 years.
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Hi Lanercost, there is a headstone for them in the old churchyard but unfortunately, it's only a marker stone with their names and the year it was erected. The inscription reads - "1813 erected by Robert Black and Margaret Dalziel his spouse".
The plot book records for the churchyard only begin at 1875 (but padded-out by some entries in the Day Book of the municipal cemetery from 1860+).
Each plot in the churchyard was divided into 3 sections (or lairs) namely the Centre, the North and the South.
So here are the entries from the Plot Book, the owners, in Victorian times, are recorded as Robert Black and Margaret Dalziel. All dates below are of interment, not death.
In the South -
MUNGO BLACK, aged 75 years. 19th March 1928.
In the Centre -
PETER BLACK, aged 70 years. 9th December 1879.
ELIZABETH BLACK, aged 65 years. 12th September 1883.
UNKNOWN CHRISTIE, no age given (most probably an infant or still birth) 12th march 1884.
MAGGIE BLACK, aged 16 months. 14th February 1882.
WILLIAM BLACK, aged 7 months. 21st October 1895.
In the North -
MARION BLACK, aged 62 years. 17th June 1902.
MARGARET BLACK, aged 76 years. 23rd September 1920.
I found some of Robert and Margaret's children in the cemetery Day Books, the information in these books is better.
SUSAN BLACK, pauper, Wishaw, aged 37 years, unmarried.
Parents - Robert Black & Margaret Dalziel.
Interred in the old churchyard on 17th June 1862.
PETER BLACK, carter, Wishaw, aged 70 years, married.
Parents - Robert Black & Margaret Dalziel.
Interred in the old churchyard on 9th December 1879.
(Peter may have been married to Elizabeth Wylie?)
MARY RUSSELL, Cleland, aged 75 years, widow.
Parents - Robert Black & Margaret Dalziel.
Interred in C322 municipal cemetery on 24th November 1906.
Also in C322 are -
WILLIAM RUSSELL, boilermaker, Cleland, aged 71 years, married.
Parents - Gavin Russell & Jane Brownlie.
Interred 11th November 1895.
LOCKHART BROWNLIE, modeller, Cleland, aged 32 years, married.
Parents - William Brownlie & Isabella Lockhart.
Interred 28th October 1899.
The stone with Robert & Margaret's name is in a very prominent position just underneath the bell tower of the now ruined church, luckily, it is just on the right side of the modern metal fence that was erected to keep the public from going into the unsafe ruins. The bell tower is a classic example of a 17th century Scottish "Birdcage" tower.
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Hi Kerrmain, I went back today and tried to take a better picture of the stone, I discovered why the original picture wasn't very good, the stone is under a large tree.
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A couple more of the Kerr stone, the one with the red dot is the back of the stone. The front faces east, towards the rising sun.
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Hi Lanercost, there is a headstone for them in the old churchyard but unfortunately, it's only a marker stone with their names and the year it was erected. The inscription reads - "1813 erected by Robert Black and Margaret Dalziel his spouse".
The plot book records for the churchyard only begin at 1875 (but padded-out by some entries in the Day Book of the municipal cemetery from 1860+).
Each plot in the churchyard was divided into 3 sections (or lairs) namely the Centre, the North and the South.
So here are the entries from the Plot Book, the owners, in Victorian times, are recorded as Robert Black and Margaret Dalziel. All dates below are of interment, not death.
In the South -
MUNGO BLACK, aged 75 years. 19th March 1928.
In the Centre -
PETER BLACK, aged 70 years. 9th December 1879.
ELIZABETH BLACK, aged 65 years. 12th September 1883.
UNKNOWN CHRISTIE, no age given (most probably an infant or still birth) 12th march 1884.
MAGGIE BLACK, aged 16 months. 14th February 1882.
WILLIAM BLACK, aged 7 months. 21st October 1895.
In the North -
MARION BLACK, aged 62 years. 17th June 1902.
MARGARET BLACK, aged 76 years. 23rd September 1920.
I found some of Robert and Margaret's children in the cemetery Day Books, the information in these books is better.
SUSAN BLACK, pauper, Wishaw, aged 37 years, unmarried.
Parents - Robert Black & Margaret Dalziel.
Interred in the old churchyard on 17th June 1862.
PETER BLACK, carter, Wishaw, aged 70 years, married.
Parents - Robert Black & Margaret Dalziel.
Interred in the old churchyard on 9th December 1879.
(Peter may have been married to Elizabeth Wylie?)
MARY RUSSELL, Cleland, aged 75 years, widow.
Parents - Robert Black & Margaret Dalziel.
Interred in C322 municipal cemetery on 24th November 1906.
Also in C322 are -
WILLIAM RUSSELL, boilermaker, Cleland, aged 71 years, married.
Parents - Gavin Russell & Jane Brownlie.
Interred 11th November 1895.
LOCKHART BROWNLIE, modeller, Cleland, aged 32 years, married.
Parents - William Brownlie & Isabella Lockhart.
Interred 28th October 1899.
The stone with Robert & Margaret's name is in a very prominent position just underneath the bell tower of the now ruined church, luckily, it is just on the right side of the modern metal fence that was erected to keep the public from going into the unsafe ruins. The bell tower is a classic example of a 17th century Scottish "Birdcage" tower.
Hi Lodger, thank you so much for all the info, the extra info and the photos! It's a shame there aren't any dates for Robert and Margaret but good to know where they are buried and some of the family members with them. A lot of info and insight I wouldn't have had without you, I'll have a good look over everything tonight. Appreciate your time and help :)
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May I also extend my gratitude to you, Lodger for your kind and generous offer of help to me and so many others on this forum. As so much of my research has been based in the Cambusnethan area over the years, you responded to so many of my queries and helped me knock over many a brick wall.
I hope you come to believe that one rotten apple doesna maketh all rotten and can appreciate that as a volunteer on this forum your assistance is highly valued and a credit to the spirit in which Rootschat was formed in the first place. As a Rootschatter on the other side of the world I thank you for time spent, your local knowledge and willingness to help; even when that meant tramping in your wellies to the Cambusnethan Cemetery! The knowledge you have imparted over the years is truly GOLD. :)
Sage
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I too would like to say how much you have contributed to this forum, and to congratulate and thank you for sharing your extensive knowledge and for your willingness to go and look at stones and other things on behalf of other people.
As for the member who was rude to you, there's always one. Nil illigitimi carborundum.
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Hi Lodger,
Thank you so much for the photos that you have taken for me. You have gone to a lot of trouble and I do really appreciate it. The photos you have taken are better than the old one you have and the inscription is also a little clearer as well. So well done to you!
Could I trouble you with another question in relation to this headstone.... Since John Kerr created this headstone in memory of his three brothers, this to me may mean that his three brothers are not actually buried at this site and that this memorial was created at some time between 1839 when the last brother died and 1854 when the mother, Mary Braidwood, died. Would this mean that Mary Braidwood would be buried here? I have been unable to find any Parish Death or Burial records for any of the brothers or Mary Braidwood or even his father who was also a John Kerr. Is there any way of knowing the year that this memorial headstone was created?
If you feel that you don't want to get involved with my query any further, I completely understand and I will take this opportunity to thank you for your kind generosity in the help you have already provided to me and I wish you all the very best.
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Hi Kerrmain,
I would imagine that everyone mentioned on the stone is buried there. Usually if someone has died elsewhere that fact is included in the inscription. What I do find odd is there is no mention of the father. So, was he still alive when the inscription was made?
It looks as if the Mary Braidwood lettering was definitely added later so the stone and original inscription must date from 1839 or shortly after then. There are no records for the erection of stones unless there was something specific that warranted a mention in the kirk session records but all I could see was the entry for 16th Sept: 1835 for "W.Kerr" which was the charge of 4 shillings to have the use of the "second" mortcloth.
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Once again Lodger, thank you very much for providing me with that information. Yes, I am at a loss as to what happened to John Kerr, the father. If only there was an 1831 census then I'd have a lot more answers! On the 1841 census for the son John Kerr at age 25, he is unmarried and living with his mother who is listed as Mary Braidwood. On the following census 1851, the two of them again are still together but on this census she is listed as Mary Kerr, Widow and then her death was in 1854. The son, John, then married in 1856 at the age of 40 to Christina Strain who was 20 years of age. I am assuming from the monumental inscription, that there were only 4 children for Mary but when you look at their birth years 1802, 1804, 1816 and 1819 it makes one think that there should have been more children between 1804 and 1816 but these records seem to be non existent unfortunately. As far as the father John Kerr goes, the only record I have of him is his marriage in 1801 to Mary Braidwood and his name listed on George and Thomas's birth registrations. I think I may have reached the end of the line with this family, at least for the time being, I must admit its hard to let go but you can't find what doesn't exist. Lodger its been a pleasure to make your acquaintance :)