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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Cloabella12 on Thursday 02 September 21 22:36 BST (UK)
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Hello I have been stuck trying to figure out some of my ancestors for a while, if anyone can help or has any tips I would be much appreciated.
I have been trying to research my Great, Great Grandparents-
John Henry Humphreys Born: Abt. 1857 in Ludlow Shropshire(or according to one Census Wolverhampton.)
Emma Elizabeth Green Born: 1872 in Beckenham/Elmers End, Bromley.
I have found the couple and their children several times in Beckenham/Penge which is not far from where I live so it’s a little easier for me to work out. I cannot work out where John Henry actually came from and can find no marriage certificate for them so I’m completely stuck with that.
So I have tried to look at Emma’s family instead. I am having trouble with her Mother- Elizabeth Green Born about 1838- Lambeth.
Emma is listed on the 1881 Census living at Eden Road Beckenham with her apparent Grandparents-
Frederick Lucas & Mary Ann Lucas,
Her Mother is listed as their Daughter in Law?
And some of her siblings- William, Edwin & Jane.
On some Census’s Elizabeth Green is listed as the Lucas’s daughter. On some she is wed, some widowed.
The confusion continued when I tried to find all of Elizabeth’s children’s birth records including Emma’s. This is what I have found:
Edwin Walter Lucas Green Born 1862 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Esther Eliza Lucas Born 1864 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
William Charles Lucas Born 1866
Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Emma Elizabeth Green Born 1872 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Frederick James Green Born 1874 Bromley Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Arthur Green Born 1877 Bromley
Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Jane Ann Lucas Born 1877 Bromley Union Mother’s name not listed.
So my main questions are who was Elizabeth Green? Was she the daughter or daughter in law of Frederick & Mary Ann Lucas?
Why did she name some of her Children as Green and some as Lucas? And why then is her maiden name listed as Howard? I cannot find who she really was and why she may have had the kids in the workhouse or maybe it was just the infirmary?
Lastly I found more confusion on her daughter’s Esther Eliza Green’s (born Lucas) marriage certificate, where she names her father as Frederick Lucas Green?! I thought Frederick Lucas was her grandfather and where did the Green part actually come from?
Sorry for the extra long post. It’s quite complicated. Thanks for any help :)
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Could this be the family in 1851, Ann born Portsmouth, the birth dates about right .
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKC-X6Z
Cathy
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Emma is listed on the 1881 Census living at Eden Road Beckenham with her apparent Grandparents-
Frederick Lucas & Mary Ann Lucas,
Her Mother is listed as their Daughter in Law?
Welcome to Rootschat :)
I can't see 'daughter in law' for Elizabeth in 1881, just 'daur'. In 1891 she is with Frederick and it looks like daughter in law there. At that time, this could also mean step daughter, so Frederick may not be her biological father.
Census relationships were supposed to be to the head of the household only, so if someone is the son or daughter to the head it doesn't necessarily mean that his wife was the mother.
Debra :)
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possible 1841 for Frederick a shoemaker in Shoreditch. Possible brother Walter.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQVJ-NTZ
The 1847 marriage to Ann Estick is another Fred, a gardener.
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Welcome to Rootschat,
There appears to be a lot of anomalies in the info you supplied
Is this the Henry J Humphreys and Emma F Green marriage 4q 1919 Poplar?
if so, it would make Emma about 47 years old.
Edwin Walter Lucas Green Born 1862 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Esther Eliza Lucas Born 1864 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
William Charles Lucas Born 1866 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Emma Elizabeth Green Born 1872 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Frederick James Green Born 1874 Bromley Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Arthur Green Born 1877 Bromley Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Jane Ann Lucas Born 1877 Bromley Union Mother’s name not listed.
Where does the MMN of Howard fit in?
Does this help?
Edwin Walter Green bap 7 Sep 1862 Bromley Kent Fa: Henry Green Mo: Elizabeth
Edwin Walter Green marr Alice Louisa Skinner 2q 1889 Bromley
Florence Louisa Green dau born 2q 1890 Bromley MMN:Skinner
Amy Elizabeth Green dau born 4q 1895 Bromley MMN:Skinner
Can you give anymore info that would help pin down the people you need help with?
Jim
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just to give some context
1911 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW8P-FTT
1901 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9X1-D25
baptism for Walter Leonard
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NTT2-YL9
baptism for John Henry the son
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJLV-DTL
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did Emma Elizabeth marry John Henry Humphreys? Have you checked how many years married on the 1911 census?
Possible death reg ?
Emma Elizabeth Green 74 dec qtr 1946 Bromley vol 8b pg 219
1891 census with detailed place of birth for Elizabeth
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJSL-XPZ
1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27W-M2HG
1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFD6-7DN
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Could this be the family in 1851, Ann born Portsmouth, the birth dates about right .
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKC-X6Z
Cathy
Thanks for this. Yes I saw this. I thought it could be the family. :)
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Emma is listed on the 1881 Census living at Eden Road Beckenham with her apparent Grandparents-
Frederick Lucas & Mary Ann Lucas,
Her Mother is listed as their Daughter in Law?
Welcome to Rootschat :)
I can't see 'daughter in law' for Elizabeth in 1881, just 'daur'. In 1891 she is with Frederick and it looks like daughter in law there. At that time, this could also mean step daughter, so Frederick may not be her biological father.
Census relationships were supposed to be to the head of the household only, so if someone is the son or daughter to the head it doesn't necessarily mean that his wife was the mother.
Debra :)
Oh yes sorry it was the 1891 census which suggests Emma was the Lucas’ daughter in law rather than daughter. I’m so confused.
Thanks, Chloe :)
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possible 1841 for Frederick a shoemaker in Shoreditch. Possible brother Walter.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQVJ-NTZ
The 1847 marriage to Ann Estick is another Fred, a gardener.
Thank you for this, I had seen it but didn’t notice the possible Brother Walter.
Many thanks,
Chloe :)
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Welcome to Rootschat,
There appears to be a lot of anomalies in the info you supplied
Is this the Henry J Humphreys and Emma F Green marriage 4q 1919 Poplar?
if so, it would make Emma about 47 years old.
Edwin Walter Lucas Green Born 1862 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Esther Eliza Lucas Born 1864 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
William Charles Lucas Born 1866 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Emma Elizabeth Green Born 1872 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Frederick James Green Born 1874 Bromley Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Arthur Green Born 1877 Bromley Mother’s Maiden Name Howard
Jane Ann Lucas Born 1877 Bromley Union Mother’s name not listed.
Where does the MMN of Howard fit in?
Does this help?
Edwin Walter Green bap 7 Sep 1862 Bromley Kent Fa: Henry Green Mo: Elizabeth
Edwin Walter Green marr Alice Louisa Skinner 2q 1889 Bromley
Florence Louisa Green dau born 2q 1890 Bromley MMN:Skinner
Amy Elizabeth Green dau born 4q 1895 Bromley MMN:Skinner
Can you give anymore info that would help pin down the people you need help with?
Jim
Hello I have searched and searched for some time and haven’t had much luck because not much seems to make sense with this side of my family.
My John Henry Humphreys died in 1912 so that wouldn’t be him. I have never been able to find a marriage record for him & Emma Elizabeth Green. And on the 1911 census the marriage length column is blank.
That’s why I have decided to try and get further with Emma’s side instead. But I still don’t quite understand her Mother Elizabeth’s real last name. It’s either Lucas or Green. And as she named some of her children Green & some Lucas, I am having trouble clarifying this. And I have no idea why she listed Howard as her maiden name on all of the birth records.
Sorry if my post is confusing.
Thanks,
Chloe :)
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I don’t think this has been posted - puzzle ???
1861 463/111/29
Fredrick Smith 41 yrs Shoemaker b Shoreditch
Mary Ann Smith 48 yrs b Portsmouth
Elizabeth Smith 25 yrs Shoe binder b Lambeth
Fredrick Smith 15 yrs b Lambeth
Anderlender Elizth Smith 4 yrs b St Lukes
Anderlinder Elizabeth Lucas mmn Rackett
Frederick Lucas in later censuses is a Painter
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did Emma Elizabeth marry John Henry Humphreys? Have you checked how many years married on the 1911 census?
Possible death reg ?
Emma Elizabeth Green 74 dec qtr 1946 Bromley vol 8b pg 219
1891 census with detailed place of birth for Elizabeth
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJSL-XPZ
1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27W-M2HG
1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFD6-7DN
Thanks for the Cenus entry’s I have seen them. Would you take from them that Elizabeth Green is indeed the daughter of Frederick Lucas? Even if the 1891 cenus states she is his Daughter in law? And if she was born Elizabeth Lucas and married a Green, why would she put Howard as her maiden name on the birth certificates of her children?
Regarding John Henry Humphreys & Emma Elizabeth Green being married. They suggest they are on all the Census’ they are listed on but on the 1911 census the column for length of marriage is left blank. Also I have never been able to find a marriage record for them.
That is possibly the death registration for Emma. But I also found one for an Emma Elizabeth Humphreys for 1960. I am hoping when the 1921 census is released I might gain a little more clarity on this.
Many thanks,
Chloe :)
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There is a child born 1856 St Luke but I can’t see the name in GRO.
Alonza Rackett Lucas
1851 1564 /361/27
Southwark
Frederick Lucas 31 yrs ladies shoemaker b Shoreditch
Ann Lucas 35 yrs b Portsmouth
Elizabeth Lucas 12 yrs
Emma Lucas 9 yrs
Ellen Lucas 7 yrs
Frederick Lucas 4 yrs
William Augusta Lucas 10 months
*william Austin Lucas b 1851 mmn Rackett
Sorry, Cathy posted a link to this in reply #1
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ok, 1891 census gives Elizabeth's place of birth as Isabella Street. Possible baptism 18 June 1837 St John the Evangelist Lambeth Elizabeth daughter of Frederick William Howard, frame maker, & Mary Ann of Isabella Street.
Other baptisms to Frederick (William) & Mary Ann Howard at St John the Evangelist, Lambeth
29 Sep 1839 Emma - Frederick joiner Glovers Hatch
21 Nov 1841 David Frederick b. 20 Oct 1841- Frederick carver & gilder Glovers Hatch
26 Nov 1843 Eleanor Esther born 24 Oct - Frederick carver Glovers Hatch
at the workhouse St Mary Lambeth
6 June 1847 Frederick William - Frederick picture frame maker 7 Bond Place, Cornwall Road.
No Howards at 7 Bond Place in 1851.
Birth regs for David Fredrick & Elinor Esther have mother's maiden name of Rackett
And William Austin Lucas 1851 mmn Rackett
Also there is a baptism
Portsea 4 Dec 1808 Mary Ann daughter of John & Elizabeth Rackett
:-\
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I don’t think this has been posted - puzzle ???
1861 463/111/29
Fredrick Smith 41 yrs Shoemaker b Shoreditch
Mary Ann Smith 48 yrs b Portsmouth
Elizabeth Smith 25 yrs Shoe binder b Lambeth
Fredrick Smith 15 yrs b Lambeth
Anderlender Elizth Smith 4 yrs b St Lukes
Anderlinder Elizabeth Lucas mmn Rackett
Frederick Lucas in later censuses is a Painter
Wow thank you for this! I had not seen this. This is definitely the same family. I have absolutely no idea why their name has been changed to Smith for this census.
The plot thickens!
Thanks,
Chloe :)
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Thanks osprey - good finds
1841 1060 /9/12
Frederick Howard 24 yrs not born in county
Mary Howard 25 yrs not born in county
Elizabeth Howard 4 yrs born in county
Emma Howard 2 yrs born in county
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There is a child born 1856 St Luke but I can’t see the name in GRO.
Alonza Rackett Lucas
1851 1564 /361/27
Southwark
Frederick Lucas 31 yrs ladies shoemaker b Shoreditch
Ann Lucas 35 yrs b Portsmouth
Elizabeth Lucas 12 yrs
Emma Lucas 9 yrs
Ellen Lucas 7 yrs
Frederick Lucas 4 yrs
William Augusta Lucas 10 months
*william Austin Lucas b 1851 mmn Rackett
Sorry, Cathy posted a link to this in reply #1
This is really helpful thank you :)
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ok, 1891 census gives Elizabeth's place of birth as Isabella Street. Possible baptism 18 June 1837 St John the Evangelist Lambeth Elizabeth daughter of Frederick William Howard, frame maker, & Mary Ann of Isabella Street.
Other baptisms to Frederick (William) & Mary Ann Howard at St John the Evangelist, Lambeth
29 Sep 1839 Emma - Frederick joiner Glovers Hatch
21 Nov 1841 David Frederick b. 20 Oct 1841- Frederick carver & gilder Glovers Hatch
26 Nov 1843 Eleanor Esther born 24 Oct - Frederick carver Glovers Hatch
at the workhouse St Mary Lambeth
6 June 1847 Frederick William - Frederick picture frame maker 7 Bond Place, Cornwall Road.
No Howards at 7 Bond Place in 1851.
Birth regs for David Fredrick & Elinor Esther have mother's maiden name of Rackett
And William Austin Lucas 1851 mmn Rackett
Also there is a baptism
Portsea 4 Dec 1808 Mary Ann daughter of John & Elizabeth Rackett
:-\
Thank you so much!! This is all so helpful. I am none the wiser why their surnames have continuously changed but i at least have all of this to work with now.
Thanks,
Chloe :)
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Haven't found Frederick William Howard in later records as yet. If he was still alive, Mary Ann wouldn't have been free to marry Frederick Lucas, so you get the mixture of surnames on some entries. Not sure why Smith in 1861.
The child from 1856 was registered as Alonzo Rackett Lucas dec qtr 1856 St Luke vol 1b pg 508 mmn Rackett. Haven't spotted him later either.
Burial St John Lambeth 17 Sept 1843 David Frederick Howard 1
marriage reg Eleanor Hester Howard sep qtr 1864 Bromley vol 2a pg 40
1881 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27W-9SXL
1871 census visiting brother Frederick William
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFD6-DDS
Haven't found Eleanor Hester's or Frederick William's marriage online as yet.
marriage parish church of Croydon 2 Oct 1882
Henry Webb full widower Croydon railway foreman father Alexander Webb labourer
Anderlinda Elizabeth Lucas 28 spinster Croydon father Frederick Lucas painter
witnesses Ebenezer Whittaker & Grace Tudge?
The Webbs move around with railway works
1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:716W-6MM
1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9FD-XMD
1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWZP-JZ7
In 1906 Anderlinda Elizabeth Webb was involved with the administration of the estate of Emma Howard of 4 Evelyn Place North Road Plymouth widow who died 25 Nov 1904. But she wasn't at that address on the 1901 census.
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Hi,
In 1851 they were living at St George the Martyr, Southwark, I have found these Banns which could be Frederick and Mary Ann,
St George the Martyr, Southwark
1851
P.78
No. 388
Frederick LUCAS Bachelor
Mary SMITH Spinster
Both of this parish.
11th May
18th May
25th May
This entry is crossed through with "entered on other side,page 77" written on it.
so,
St George the Martyr, Southwark
1851
P.77
No. 384
Frederick LUCAS Bachelor
Mary SMITH Spinster
Both of this parish.
11th May by me, ?? PAULL, Curate
18th May by me, J HORTON, Rector
25th May by me, J HORTON, Curate
Then,
St George the Martyr, Southwark
1851
P.97
No. 489
Frederick James LUCAS Bachelor
Mary Ann RACKETT Spinster
Both of this parish.
27th July by me, Thos B BAKER, Curate
3rd August by me, J HORTON, Rector
10th August by me, J HORTON, Rector
These are just Banns, I cannot find any marriage which corresponds to either of them.
It's the same Rector, I would love to know what they were telling him :)
Regards,
Daisy
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oh good find! At least they tried! ;D
He's Frederick J on 1891 census and Frederick James on 1891 death reg. I see on the 1851 banns, there's a note of 'poor'. Wonder if this means they didn't need to pay?
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I can't see where it says poor, maybe we are looking at different images :-\
I think this could be Mary Ann RACKETT, it's only a mile from Isabella Street where Elizabeth was born.
Looks like she was surprising everyone even before her various 'marriages' :)
London Courier and Evening Gazette 22 December 1835
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Haven't found Frederick William Howard in later records as yet. If he was still alive, Mary Ann wouldn't have been free to marry Frederick Lucas, so you get the mixture of surnames on some entries. Not sure why Smith in 1861.
The child from 1856 was registered as Alonzo Rackett Lucas dec qtr 1856 St Luke vol 1b pg 508 mmn Rackett. Haven't spotted him later either.
Burial St John Lambeth 17 Sept 1843 David Frederick Howard 1
marriage reg Eleanor Hester Howard sep qtr 1864 Bromley vol 2a pg 40
1881 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27W-9SXL
1871 census visiting brother Frederick William
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFD6-DDS
Haven't found Eleanor Hester's or Frederick William's marriage online as yet.
marriage parish church of Croydon 2 Oct 1882
Henry Webb full widower Croydon railway foreman father Alexander Webb labourer
Anderlinda Elizabeth Lucas 28 spinster Croydon father Frederick Lucas painter
witnesses Ebenezer Whittaker & Grace Tudge?
The Webbs move around with railway works
1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:716W-6MM
1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9FD-XMD
1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWZP-JZ7
In 1906 Anderlinda Elizabeth Webb was involved with the administration of the estate of Emma Howard of 4 Evelyn Place North Road Plymouth widow who died 25 Nov 1904. But she wasn't at that address on the 1901 census.
Ahh this is really helpful and gives me a lot to work with thank you so much :)
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Hi,
In 1851 they were living at St George the Martyr, Southwark, I have found these Banns which could be Frederick and Mary Ann,
St George the Martyr, Southwark
1851
P.78
No. 388
Frederick LUCAS Bachelor
Mary SMITH Spinster
Both of this parish.
11th May
18th May
25th May
This entry is crossed through with "entered on other side,page 77" written on it.
so,
St George the Martyr, Southwark
1851
P.77
No. 384
Frederick LUCAS Bachelor
Mary SMITH Spinster
Both of this parish.
11th May by me, ?? PAULL, Curate
18th May by me, J HORTON, Rector
25th May by me, J HORTON, Curate
Then,
St George the Martyr, Southwark
1851
P.97
No. 489
Frederick James LUCAS Bachelor
Mary Ann RACKETT Spinster
Both of this parish.
27th July by me, Thos B BAKER, Curate
3rd August by me, J HORTON, Rector
10th August by me, J HORTON, Rector
These are just Banns, I cannot find any marriage which corresponds to either of them.
It's the same Rector, I would love to know what they were telling him :)
Regards,
Daisy
Oh thank you this is great! I’m trying to get my head around this. No wonder I couldn’t find anyone with the changing names. Yes I would love to know what they were telling him! ;D
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I can't see where it says poor, maybe we are looking at different images :-\
I think this could be Mary Ann RACKETT, it's only a mile from Isabella Street where Elizabeth was born.
Looks like she was surprising everyone even before her various 'marriages' :)
London Courier and Evening Gazette 22 December 1835
Wow this is fantastic!! She sounds like quite the character!
Thanks so much,
Chloe :)