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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: loobylooayr on Tuesday 07 September 21 17:25 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I wonder if anyone has any knowledge about the early days of Sunderland AFC?
My great-great uncle signed for the club back in 1891 and played at Roker Park for several years. I've been doing some research on him and wonder if a professional footballer in the 1890s would be, like today, totally professional (i.e. football and training being his sole occupation) or whether these young men would have ordinary everyday jobs over and above.
My ancestor Hugh Wilson, is recorded as a boarder on the 1891 Census at Zetland Street, Sunderland. According to Familysearch transcription he is a Lace Weaver Proprietor Football Player - although I think Proprietor has probably been mistranscribed and should be Professional. Hugh was indeed a Lace Weaver back home in Scotland and cannot have been very long in Sunderland when the Census was taken.
Thanks for reading,
Looby :)
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Hi Looby
I'm not familiar with the Sunderland club that far back, although I did have a season ticket for 2 or 3 seasons about 10 years or so ago.
I can only tell you about my football relatives and their friends during that era. Nearly all my father's brothers and his father played football - at an amateur level. My father played half professional in the early 1920s and then became a full professional until about 1928 when he had an injury. He said he was paid £8 a week then.
There's quite a lot of info online about the early days of the Football League. It would also be worth Googling 'Billy Meredith', who not only was a brilliant player, but was also instrumental in starting a players union.
Duck/Simon would be able to tell you a lot more than me. It would be worth you sending him a PM.
Gadget
Add - Simon's link:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=50210
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I was researching someone around the same era and found at the time, most players were only part-time professionals and still had other jobs, some FC owners found them other jobs locally to where they played and some worked as groundsmen etc for the club . As professionals they could have recieved £1-£10 for playing. When the average working wage was possibly £1
Lots changed in the 1890s as top players joined together to form a trade union, the AFU
When you read what these men achieved at that time for their teams , they would have been multi million, famous players now days
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Here he is
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According to the list of former Sunderland players on Wikipedia, Hughie Wilson was a midfielder who made 258 appearnces for the club between 1890-1899.
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Here he is
Thank you Gadget. You have given me a lot to go on in your first reply. I will certainly message Simon later this evening after dinner.
Thanks too for sharing the Census clip. I think that must be an abbreviation for Professional...because Hugh certainly wasn't a Proprietor of a lace weaving business!
Regards
Looby :)
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I was researching someone around the same era and found at the time, most players were only part-time professionals and still had other jobs, some FC owners found them other jobs locally to where they played and some worked as groundsmen etc for the club . As professionals they could have recieved £1-£10 for playing. When the average working wage was possibly £1
Lots changed in the 1890s as top players joined together to form a trade union, the AFU
When you read what these men achieved at that time for their teams , they would have been multi million, famous players now days
Thank you Iluleah .
Your reply supports what I have sort of suspected - that in the early days professional footballers would probably have another job organised by the football club management.
I have a note of Hugh's starting wage on my laptop ( I'm on my mobile right now) and know it was more than he was earning at the lace mill where he's worked in Ayrshire , but hardly in the top-earning bracket .
You are so right , these men were trailblazers !
Regards,
Looby :)
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According to the list of former Sunderland players on Wikipedia, Hughie Wilson was a midfielder who made 258 appearnces for the club between 1890-1899.
Thank you, Bentor Boy.
Yes Hugh was a prolific player for Sunderland in the 1890s. He was in fact team captain for several seasons. I have done some research on his long career -
- he played for Bedminster, Bristol, Third Lanark and Kilmarnock as well as collecting 4 Scotland caps before hanging up his football boots in 1908.
I'm trying now to find out about his life in Sunderland, if possible.
Best,
Looby
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If you haven’t already seen them, there are very many mentions of him in the newspapers online.
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If you haven’t already seen them, there are very many mentions of him in the newspapers online.
Thank you, Jen.
I've bought a subscription to British Newspaper Archive and have found a good few references about him in several newspapers on that site.
I'm currently searching to see if there is an obituary somewhere - he died in 1940 - but nothing so far !
Regards,
Looby :)
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Here's a piece that gives info about wages and the footballers union:
https://spartacus-educational.com/Fwages.htm
You might have read it but thought it was worth linking it.
My great uncle,of the same era as Hugh and who remained an amateur despite his pal, Billy Meredith, trying to get him to sign for Man Utd, was capped for Wales 2 or 3 times. I'm not sure if he played against Scotland. My cousin has the caps.
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There is a letter about his death in the Sunderland Daily Echo 24th April 1940.
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Do you know his exact date of death?
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Here's a piece that gives info about wages and the footballers union:
https://spartacus-educational.com/Fwages.htm
You might have read it but thought it was worth linking it.
My great uncle,of the same era as Hugh and who remained an amateur despite his pal, Billy Meredith, trying to get him to sign for Man Utd, was capped for Wales 2 or 3 times. I'm not sure if he played against Scotland. My cousin has the caps.
Thank you , Gadget.
I haven't seen that link before , so will have good read.
Hugh's first cap was for a match against Wales in 1891 - I wonder if your great uncle was in the opposition line-up. This game was what drew Hugh to the attention of Sunderland.
Looby :)
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There is a letter about his death in the Sunderland Daily Echo 24th April 1940.
Wow, thank you, Jen.
Can this be viewed online please?
Hugh died on the 6th April 1940 - so the letter must definitely relate to him !
Looby :)
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There is a letter about his death in the Sunderland Daily Echo 24th April 1940.
Wow, thank you, Jen.
Can this be viewed online please?
Hugh died on the 6th April 1940 - so the letter must definitely relate to him !
Looby :)
Yes it can (I found it on FindMyPast). It's very brief, but the implication in it is that there has been previous comment about his death.
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Yes it can (I found it on FindMyPast). It's very brief, but the implication in it is that there has been previous comment about his death.
[/quote]
Ahh. I don't have a subscription for Find my Past - having mainly Scots ancestry I tend to use Scotlands People for research
I will need to see about getting access to view it.
Thank you for finding it.
Looby :)
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Hugh's first cap was for a match against Wales in 1891 - I wonder if your great uncle was in the opposition line-up. This game was what drew Hugh to the attention of Sunderland.
Looby :)
He played against Ireland in 1991
and Scotland:
20 Mar 1897
Wrexham, The Racecourse
2-2
Wales vs Scotland
British Championship 1897
and England in 1897
:)
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Just noting that I am distantly related to Tom Rowlandson, a goalkeeper. He mostly played for Corinthian FC, the London amateur side, but his family home was near Darlington and he played for Sunderland in 1903-04.
He was said by some to be the best amateur goalie of his day, and he also played for the England amateur side. Sadly, like so many footballers, he was killed in action in WW1.
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Just noting that I am distantly related to Tom Rowlandson, a goalkeeper. He mostly played for Corinthian FC, the London amateur side, but his family home was near Darlington and he played for Sunderland in 1903-04.
He was said by some to be the best amateur goalie of his day, and he also played for the England amateur side. Sadly, like so many footballers, he was killed in action in WW1.
Sounds like he was a fine goalie, Arthurk. And such a shame he was lost in WW1.
My Hugh Wilson moved to play at Bedminster in 1901 - so their paths may not have crossed. Hugh was too old to serve in WW1 but I believe at least one of his sons did.
Looby :)
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The British Newspaper Archive is the same data as is accessed on Findmypast. Both sites are part of Brightsolid.
There may be some differences in the search facility.
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The British Newspaper Archive is the same data as is accessed on Findmypast. Both sites are part of Brightsolid.
There may be some differences in the search facility.
Thank you Spelk. I didn't know that. The search facility and the transcriptions on BNA are not brilliant. I think they rely on their users transcribing for them and therefore improving the search facility
Looby
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Earlier this year I published a Who's Who of Scotland football internationalists, so I can probably tell you quite a lot about the working lives of footballers in the Victorian era! Many Scots were tempted south with the promise of a well-paid job at their trade, together with added money to play football, and a lump sum up front to sign on the dotted line. Gradually the practice evolved into full-time football as the top clubs realised they needed to have the full attention of their players.
This is the entry for your ancestor:
Hugh Wilson
Born 18 March 1869 Bilboa, Mauchline, Ayrshire
Died 5 April 1940 Kilmarnock Infirmary, Ayrshire
Scotland v Wales 1890, 1902; England 1897; Ireland 1904.
Mauchline; Newmilns; Sunderland 1890-99 (Football League 1892, 1893, 1895); Bedminster 1899-1900; Bristol City 1900-01; Third Lanark 1901-07 (Scottish League 1904; Scottish Cup 1905); Kilmarnock Apr 1907-08.
Wilson won four caps over a 14-year period, gaining his first honour in 1890 at left half while with Newmilns. Later that year he turned professional with Sunderland where he really showed his class and took part in their glory years with three league championships in 1892, 1893 and 1895. Known as ‘Lalty’ he was famous for his long one-handed throw-ins, which apparently were responsible for a revision of the laws in 1895 to insist that throws must be two-handed. He was capped for a second time in Scotland’s impressive 2-1 win over England in 1897. He left Sunderland in 1899, aged 30, for the relative obscurity of the Southern League at Bedminster, which merged with Bristol City a year later. It might have indicated his career was winding down yet he was far from finished, and when he returned to Scotland in 1901 with Third Lanark he found a new lease of life. In six years at Cathkin, he was outstanding and won a Scottish League title, the Scottish Cup, two more Scotland caps and made an appearance for the Scottish League. His career finally ended in 1908 after a season at Kilmarnock, shortly before he turned 40. His son John was a noted left back with Hearts, Dunfermline and Hamilton.
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Thank you for your reply meadowbank.
A lot of hard work and time producing a Who's Who - well done!
I'd love to be able to establish what kind of work Hugh undertook in Sunderland. He was a Lace Weaver in Scotland - I'm not sure he could have found work in the North East in the lace industry.
Thanks for sharing Hugh's entry. I have uncovered a fair bit about his long career. He certainly was a force to be reckoned with right up until he hung his boots up for good. Lalty is apparently Ulster-Scots slang for fu ;D or, inebriated - gives a wee nod to the personality of the man !
Thank you too for the footnote on his son John - I knew John was a professional footballer too and that he had been in Royal Scots in WW1 and injured at the Front. Turns out, he was one of the many Hearts players who enlisted - some of whom , sadly, as you will know, did not make it back.
Cheers,
Looby :)
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Hi all,
I wonder if anyone has any knowledge about the early days of Sunderland AFC?
Hi Looby, here’s a bit of history of Sunderland football club during your ancestor’s time (and before). Although it does not mention him in this match given his standing in the team at that time I suspect he was injured.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1895_World_Championship_(football)
Look at the nationality of both teams. You will realise how he maybe ended up in Sunderland. Sunderland AFC as we know them was started off as Sunderland and district teachers association football club 1879/80 (or something very similar) by a Scotsman – James Allen, from Glasgow (ring a bell?) who was teaching in Sunderland.
They played at a ground off Newcastle road, probably a mile or so from where Roker Park was, until around 1898 when they moved to Roker Park (the football ground).
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Earlier this year I published a Who's Who of Scotland football internationalists, so I can probably tell you quite a lot about the working lives of footballers in the Victorian era! Many Scots were tempted south with the promise of a well-paid job at their trade, together with added money to play football, and a lump sum up front to sign on the dotted line. Gradually the practice evolved into full-time football as the top clubs realised they needed to have the full attention of their players.
This is the entry for your ancestor:
Hugh Wilson
Born 18 March 1869 Bilboa, Mauchline, Ayrshire
Died 5 April 1940 Kilmarnock Infirmary, Ayrshire
Scotland v Wales 1890, 1902; England 1897; Ireland 1904.
Mauchline; Newmilns; Sunderland 1890-99 (Football League 1892, 1893, 1895); Bedminster 1899-1900; Bristol City 1900-01; Third Lanark 1901-07 (Scottish League 1904; Scottish Cup 1905); Kilmarnock Apr 1907-08.
Wilson won four caps over a 14-year period, gaining his first honour in 1890 at left half while with Newmilns. Later that year he turned professional with Sunderland where he really showed his class and took part in their glory years with three league championships in 1892, 1893 and 1895. Known as ‘Lalty’ he was famous for his long one-handed throw-ins, which apparently were responsible for a revision of the laws in 1895 to insist that throws must be two-handed. He was capped for a second time in Scotland’s impressive 2-1 win over England in 1897. He left Sunderland in 1899, aged 30, for the relative obscurity of the Southern League at Bedminster, which merged with Bristol City a year later. It might have indicated his career was winding down yet he was far from finished, and when he returned to Scotland in 1901 with Third Lanark he found a new lease of life. In six years at Cathkin, he was outstanding and won a Scottish League title, the Scottish Cup, two more Scotland caps and made an appearance for the Scottish League. His career finally ended in 1908 after a season at Kilmarnock, shortly before he turned 40. His son John was a noted left back with Hearts, Dunfermline and Hamilton.
Fascinating stuff!
I started following Bristol City in the 1966-67 season; lived in Bedminster for a while; know both Southville and St John's (areas of Bristol associated with BC in the early years).
Moved on to ice-hockey in early 1970s!
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Hi all,
I wonder if anyone has any knowledge about the early days of Sunderland AFC?
Hi Looby, here’s a bit of history of Sunderland football club during your ancestor’s time (and before). Although it does not mention him in this match given his standing in the team at that time I suspect he was injured.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1895_World_Championship_(football)
Look at the nationality of both teams. You will realise how he maybe ended up in Sunderland. Sunderland AFC as we know them was started off as Sunderland and district teachers association football club 1879/80 (or something very similar) by a Scotsman – James Allen, from Glasgow (ring a bell?) who was teaching in Sunderland.
They played at a ground off Newcastle road, probably a mile or so from where Roker Park was, until around 1898 when they moved to Roker Park (the football ground).
Hi Bill 4423,
Thank you for your reply.
Agree - Hugh must have been injured to miss such an important match !
I've been researching Hugh's career for some time and find the history of The Scotch Professors very interesting. The first Liverpool football team in 1893 was nicknamed 'The Team of all the Macs' due to the number of Scots on the team.
Samuel Tyzack 'headhunted' or perhaps 'football-boot-hunted' Hugh after he represented Scotland in 1890 playing against Wales. Scotland won 5-0 and Hugh scored the first goal. Whether Tyzack made his approach to Hugh dressed as a priest is not known ;D
Thanks again,
Looby :)
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Hi all,
I wonder if anyone has any knowledge about the early days of Sunderland AFC?
Hi Looby, here’s a bit of history of Sunderland football club during your ancestor’s time (and before). Although it does not mention him in this match given his standing in the team at that time I suspect he was injured.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1895_World_Championship_(football)
Look at the nationality of both teams. You will realise how he maybe ended up in Sunderland. Sunderland AFC as we know them was started off as Sunderland and district teachers association football club 1879/80 (or something very similar) by a Scotsman – James Allen, from Glasgow (ring a bell?) who was teaching in Sunderland.
They played at a ground off Newcastle road, probably a mile or so from where Roker Park was, until around 1898 when they moved to Roker Park (the football ground).
Hi Bill 4423,
Thank you for your reply.
Agree - Hugh must have been injured to miss such an important match !
I've been researching Hugh's career for some time and find the history of The Scotch Professors very interesting. The first Liverpool football team in 1893 was nicknamed 'The Team of all the Macs' due to the number of Scots on the team.
Samuel Tyzack 'headhunted' or perhaps 'football-boot-hunted' Hugh after he represented Scotland in 1890 playing against Wales. Scotland won 5-0 and Hugh scored the first goal. Whether Tyzack made his approach to Hugh dressed as a priest is not known ;D
Thanks again,
Looby :)
Much more information on the match I linked to here, including your relative (Sunderland's injured Captin)
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/apr/25/even-when-sunderland-ruled-the-globe-club-world-cups-were-controversial
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Thank you Bill and apologies for not replying sooner but I didn't notice the email alerting me to your post.
Looby :)