RootsChat.Com

General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Westee on Wednesday 08 September 21 10:18 BST (UK)

Title: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Wednesday 08 September 21 10:18 BST (UK)
Where would I find more information and a soldiers statement of service for the above regiment?
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 09 September 21 06:46 BST (UK)
Scroll down for deployment and service
https://web.archive.org/web/20060718185004/http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/cav/D21a.htm
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Thursday 09 September 21 08:00 BST (UK)
Very interesting detail.  As he was injured in 1817 he would not have been part of the detachment sent to escort Napoleon at St Helena.  So perhaps an engagement with Zulu or Dutch.  More to find out; - however, I've since found 4 more children born to him (pretty sure) in South Africa.  So his wife must have gone with the troops.  Extraordinary times.  Really enjoyed this so far.  I'll continue to see what else I can find out.  As I have a sub with Ancestry I don't want to double up with another company.  But it would seem that FindMyPast has more military information.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Thursday 09 September 21 11:50 BST (UK)
The troops were there to protect the Indian Trade Route.  (Had forgotten my history). 
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: RobertHauteville on Friday 17 September 21 12:10 BST (UK)
You should find more about him in the Musters at Kew https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C2461277 (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C2461277)
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Friday 17 September 21 19:58 BST (UK)
I would really like to read/access more information.  Can you actually read the muster rolls on line? 
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 17 September 21 20:18 BST (UK)
Who are you looking for? Have you found his discharge papers?
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Friday 17 September 21 20:40 BST (UK)
Richard Bell b. 1774 Darlington, Durham.
I obtained his discharge papers via sub from FindMyPast a year or two ago. 
Discharged 17th March 1818 after 24 yrs and 55 days.
"Extremely good and correct"
He was a Troop Sergeant Major and served in South Africa.
That in consequence of a "Rupture of right side" was discharged "Given under the Hand and the Seal of the Regiment at Cape of Good Hope this 15th Day of July 1817.

Any muster records and remarks of his time in South Africa would be absolutely wonderful.

Would there be information ship etc. of his return to the UK would be really really helpful, - as he had 4 children there and I cannot see any of them in the UK. 
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 17 September 21 21:11 BST (UK)
Four or five? children in Sth Africa
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6ZZ9-H7Z4
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:DTLB-1V6Z
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:DYQG-15ZM
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:DTFY-SN2M
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:DTDF-6GW2
Sadly, there is not much information on these transcripts.
According to Ancestry, These baptisms come from George’s cathedral Military baptisms.
Father is Richard Bell and mother Ann Collins?
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Friday 17 September 21 21:37 BST (UK)
Now that is very interesting - because there is another Louisa born to Richard and Ann back in UK in Dec. 1822 and baptised in 13th April 1823.  An earlier birth is recorded of a sister also born/baptised in Crossgate named Harriet in April 1820.
So leads me to think that perhaps some of the children died (certainly Louisa must have as they have had another child named Louisa in 1823.)
Hmmm  -  So would the deaths be recorded somewhere?  This will help immensely.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Friday 17 September 21 21:38 BST (UK)
Would they be in the Regimental Registers for Deaths (overseas)?
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 17 September 21 21:53 BST (UK)
Where did the family live in UK when they came back from Africa?
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 17 September 21 22:00 BST (UK)
Could this be Louisa?
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817e05ae93790ec757ff4bf/louisa-bell-burial-durham-sunderland-1818-06-18?locale=en
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Friday 17 September 21 22:08 BST (UK)
I would certainly bet on it.  How amazing. Another piece to the puzzle. But didn't expect that.
Yes, they lived in Durham afterwards.  His brother's death was also registered at the Holy Trinity church. 
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Hillhurst on Friday 17 September 21 22:10 BST (UK)
In Find My Past's Gro Regimental Birth Indices (1761 To 1924) collection:

Year: 1818
Name: Ellen Bell
Place: Cape Town
Country: South Africa
Archive ref: REG1

The image might be the GRO index list, as opposed to a birth/baptism record. No idea if she's anything to do with your chap. You'd have to view the FindMyPast record image.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 18 September 21 00:44 BST (UK)
Which of those children born in Sth Africa can you account for in the census or in burials?

I notice a Richard Bell born 1810, Cape of Good Hope (unmarried) appears in the London / Middlesex census from 1851 to 1881, working as a private tutor.

Henry Bell burial.
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817db6ce93790ec7579d262/henry-bell-burial-durham-durham-1822-05-31?locale=en
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Saturday 18 September 21 01:16 BST (UK)
I cannot account for any of them; apart from the Louisa which you found a burial for at Holy Trinity   Very very odd.  And I have tried and tried to find them.

The only information I have on them is the 1841 census: Richard 65 yrs; Ann 55 yrs and Louisa 15 yrs.  Living at Brougham Street, Bishopwearmouth. 

Then Richard's death in 1843 Nile Street, Bishopwearmouth. "Troop Sergeant Major in the 21st Light Dragoons"  Informant Elisabeth Young, present at death No. 52 Nile Street.  I have followed her somewhat and cannot find a connection to Richard.

That is probably Henry's death.  Oh my goodness.

Now, I'll take a look at the Richard Bell b. Cape of Good Hope which you found in London/Mddx as a private tutor.  I hadn't picked the 'where born' status of this one.  Excellent - making progress.

Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Saturday 18 September 21 01:46 BST (UK)
I'd say with much certainty that this is him in the census living in Mddx.   Found a possible death in Sept qtr 1884 in Marylebone; 1a page 413.

Considering the father's death in 1843, I am now wondering whether they all moved away from Durham (those that survived).  Can really expand my search looking for the others now.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Hillhurst on Saturday 18 September 21 02:22 BST (UK)
What about the 1818 GRO Regimental birth in SA for an Ellen Bell? Any thoughts? See several posts above.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 18 September 21 02:42 BST (UK)
What about the 1818 GRO Regimental birth in SA for an Ellen Bell? Any thoughts? See several posts above.
Any idea who the parents were?
 I think the family in question were back in England by 1818.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 18 September 21 02:46 BST (UK)
Well we have found three of them. Looking for Charlotte and Maria now.
If they survived to adulthood they would most likely be married by 1841 census.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 18 September 21 02:50 BST (UK)
Possible marriage for Maria?
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817cf5de93790eb7f9cd172/mary-bell-edward-glasper-marriage-durham-bishopwearmouth-1834-11-17?locale=en
Need to follow that up in census, etc
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 18 September 21 02:53 BST (UK)
Maybe Charlotte’s burial?
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817db6ae93790ec7579d08e/charlotte-bell-burial-durham-durham-1818-12-28?locale=en

Or
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817dadce93790ec75792bb5/charlotte-bell-burial-durham-darlington-1841-02-28?locale=en
???
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Saturday 18 September 21 03:42 BST (UK)
No wonder it's been a struggle to find the children.

Hillhurst:-   The GRO regimental birth for Ellen Bell in 1818 - Do you have parents names?  I found the other four on ancestry but I can't seem to find the right page again. 
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Hillhurst on Saturday 18 September 21 05:52 BST (UK)
Sorry, I've no idea who the parents are for the 1818 birth/baptism. I don't have a FindMyPast sub. The image may be just the GRO index list with ref numbers, should you want to order the record from the GRO. Seeing the actual GRO record is the only way to be sure if it's your Bell family or not.

Perhaps someone here with a Find My Past sub can look at the image for you, and confirm if its an index page. Ordering a copy from the GRO is just slightly different than ordering the usual BMD certs, but it wouldn't be in PDF format. You'd get it via regular post.

Wasn't your chap discharged in 1818? Depends how long he was in SA for, before he went back to England. The 1818 birth/baptism in question could be from before he was discharged or just after. That's if the birth/baptism is anything to do with your chap, obviously.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Saturday 18 September 21 06:03 BST (UK)
Cheers for that.   :)
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 18 September 21 06:57 BST (UK)
Possible marriage for Maria?
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817cf5de93790eb7f9cd172/mary-bell-edward-glasper-marriage-durham-bishopwearmouth-1834-11-17?locale=en
Need to follow that up in census, etc

No this is NOT your Maria. I have followed her in the census, and she is not the right age.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 18 September 21 08:48 BST (UK)
Quote
The GRO regimental birth for Ellen Bell in 1818

That one was recorded by 17th Regiment.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Saturday 18 September 21 09:54 BST (UK)
So probably not our Richard and Ann's child.  Awesome - tks.  :)
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 18 September 21 10:53 BST (UK)
One would expect one or two more children born between Anne in 1805 England and Richard in 1810 Sth Africa. Where to look is difficult to know. :)
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Saturday 18 September 21 10:59 BST (UK)
I did have the same thought; but if the regiment was on the move to South Africa about 1806/1807 maybe it wasn't possible for them to make hay? 
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 18 September 21 11:10 BST (UK)
There is an 1812/13 muster book online on Ancestry. This is the page on which he is listed: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60546/images/42876_635001_11934-00009
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Saturday 18 September 21 11:17 BST (UK)
Awesome, - will pick this up again tomorrow.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 18 September 21 11:23 BST (UK)
I was looking for Richard Bell, private tutor, in the 1851 census and found this family in Alton, Hampshire:

Ann Bell, widow, 65, born Newcastle on Tyne
Richard Bell, son, 36, Private Tutor, born London City
Louisa Bell, daughter, 21, born Newcastle on Tyne
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 18 September 21 11:28 BST (UK)
Great find Shaun.  :)
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Saturday 18 September 21 19:50 BST (UK)
I was looking for Richard Bell, private tutor, in the 1851 census and found this family in Alton, Hampshire:

Ann Bell, widow, 65, born Newcastle on Tyne
Richard Bell, son, 36, Private Tutor, born London City
Louisa Bell, daughter, 21, born Newcastle on Tyne

I think the ages are a little 'out' but will work on it.  Looks good for now.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: RobertHauteville on Sunday 19 September 21 19:50 BST (UK)
I would really like to read/access more information.  Can you actually read the muster rolls on line?

No. You must go to Kew to see them.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Sunday 19 September 21 22:20 BST (UK)
I would really like to read/access more information.  Can you actually read the muster rolls on line?

No. You must go to Kew to see them.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Sunday 19 September 21 22:21 BST (UK)
Darn!   Thanks.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Sunday 19 September 21 22:23 BST (UK)
Well we have found three of them. Looking for Charlotte and Maria now.
If they survived to adulthood they would most likely be married by 1841 census.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Sunday 19 September 21 22:24 BST (UK)
Well we have found three of them. Looking for Charlotte and Maria now.
If they survived to adulthood they would most likely be married by 1841 census.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Sunday 19 September 21 22:27 BST (UK)
Goodness; don't know what I'm doing here with posts!

However, - I have found a Louisa Bell marriage in 1852 J/A/S qtr South Shields to a William Bolam. Found them in the 1861 census but nothing after that.  There is a child Elisabeth Bolam aged 17 yrs born in Tweedmouth with them.  Louisa says she is 44 yrs old so that would equate to the child born in 1817 to Richard and Ann Bell.

Nothing for William Bolam and Louisa Bolam after 1861 census.  Any help... Thanks.

Wish I knew how to post better and using attachments. 
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 19 September 21 23:21 BST (UK)
Reminder, Louisa born 1817, died 1818.
I am not convinced Louisa married to william Bolam is your girl. She is too old by 5 years. Unusual for women to age themselves. :) Your Louisa in the census was always younger than her correct birth. The Bolam daughter Elizabeth was born in 1844 Berwick, with a mother named Teague.
Your Louisa was in Hampshire in 1851, and probably there since her father’s death.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 20 September 21 01:31 BST (UK)
I was looking for Richard Bell, private tutor, in the 1851 census and found this family in Alton, Hampshire:
Ann Bell, widow, 65, born Newcastle on Tyne
Richard Bell, son, 36, Private Tutor, born London City
Louisa Bell, daughter, 21, born Newcastle on Tyne

I would expect this to be the mother Ann's death.
BELL, ANNE       68 
GRO Reference: 1852  D Quarter in ALTON  Volume 02C  Page 85

Already found previously.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=852907.msg7210618#msg7210618

Where did Louisa go after her mother died? Not many choices - go to live with a brother of sister, marry or find work. Her brother Richard may have looked after her and we know he moved into the London area. I don't know who her other siblings were, and who was still alive in 1852.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 20 September 21 02:06 BST (UK)
Well we have found three of them. Looking for Charlotte and Maria now.
If they survived to adulthood they would most likely be married by 1841 census.

This will be Maria - died as an infant. Same address (Crossgate) as in other documents.
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817db6ae93790ec7579d053/maria-bell-burial-durham-durham-1818-08-06?locale=en

How sad they lost most of their offspring in childhood.
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Monday 20 September 21 03:21 BST (UK)
Reminder, Louisa born 1817, died 1818.
I am not convinced Louisa married to william Bolam is your girl. She is too old by 5 years. Unusual for women to age themselves. :) Your Louisa in the census was always younger than her correct birth. The Bolam daughter Elizabeth was born in 1844 Berwick, with a mother named Teague.
Your Louisa was in Hampshire in 1851, and probably there since her father’s death.
  I have tried to find the transcript for the marriage and having trouble.  Do you know who Louisa put down as the father?   My thoughts are that it is the Holy Trinity, South Shields which is where many of the family were bapt/married?  Would like to make doubly sure.
Also, I cannot find any of them in 1861 census.  Quite clearly there at Carpenter Street, Holy Trinity in 1851 census, William Bolam 38 lab; Louisa 44 yrs and Elisabeth 17 yrs.  William born in Tweedmouth; Louise born in South Shields and Elisabeth born in Tweedmouth too. 
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 20 September 21 03:45 BST (UK)
William Bolam in 1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-SMQC
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 20 September 21 03:50 BST (UK)
They are transcribed badly in 1871 census. Headworth Monktown. Louisa is LOWENA.
Hope this link works
https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/DURRG10_5041_5044-0430?usePUB=true&_phsrc=Exn8&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=16902491
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Monday 20 September 21 04:13 BST (UK)
A terrific find.  Thanks. 
Still something weird about it all.  There is a daughter aged 4 yrs and a Jessie Rose 8 yrs old (can't quite read it - maybe granddaughter), but not clear.
No GRO index for either; but there are a couple without a mms
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 20 September 21 09:13 BST (UK)
Quote
Already found previously.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=852907.msg7210618#msg7210618

I didn't know there were two threads on the go!
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Monday 20 September 21 10:08 BST (UK)
It was my mistake.   I posted in Suffolk (after finding the first two children there) and thought I was in Durham. 
All answers/replies have been amazing.  :-)
Title: Re: 21st Light Dragoons in South Africa 1806 onwards
Post by: Westee on Thursday 30 September 21 20:04 BST (UK)
Received Ann Bell's (from Alton, Hampshire) death cert. this morning.  See attached.  It would seem that Ann did move to Hampshire after Richard died in 1843, along with children Richard and Louisa.  You are all very clever munchkins and can't thank you enough for all the information re this family.  The informant was a Francis White who lived at 54 High Street, Alton (in 1851 census).  Ann was living at 141 High Street (in 1851 census).  Francis signed with 'her mark'.  Francis named her daughter 'Louisa' - I wonder if the two ladies became good friends when Ann moved down there.