RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: Suemagoo on Wednesday 08 September 21 22:23 BST (UK)
-
I am scratching my head trying to understand why has happened regarding 2 girls born to same Mother but 4 months apart!!!!
I found these records on irishgenealogy.ie and both births are registered.
1. Elizabeth Joss
born 02 February 1889
8 Valentine St. Belfast
Father: Alexander Joss and Mother: Sara (Strain)
Birth registered 23 Feb 1889 to John Barron - ID#9244501
These are my ancestors 100%
2. Jane Joss
born 04 June 1889
no address but says (lying in hospital bed) Father from Scotland which is true
Father: Alexander Joss Mother: Sara Strain
Birth registered 17 August 1889 to John Johnston (Informant A. Clegg occupier at hospital)
I checked the dates for all the other births to see if 1889 was a typo, but they all say 1889.
I don't think they were twins, because I can't see how in those days one could be born without the other one, so I am completely stumped!!!!
Can anyone offer any suggestions. Later on down the road one girl had a child out of wed-lock and the other married and had several children.
Any ideas will greatly be appreciated as I'm so confused!!!!
Sincerely,
Confused Canadian!!!
-
It is very odd.
Jane isn’t with the family in censuses and the number of children born and living matches the census too. Perhaps there was a mix up in registration and a change of name.
1901 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Dock_Ward/Ambrose_Street/1003043/
1911 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Dock_Ward__Belfast_Clifton_/Shipboy_Street/131974/
-
When a 40 year old Alexander Joss enlisted in what looks like the Royal Highlanders Reserves in August 1903 (in Belfast), the record clearly states that he had 6 children under the age of 14 and listed them: Alexander, Edward, James, Ellen, Albert and Elizabeth.
-
Hi Heywood and Gaffy,
Thanks for quick response!! Elizabeth born in 1889 marries in 1909 to Albert Davidson and has several children. I found a birth record for Alexander Joss born in 1918, whose mother is listed as Ann Jane Joss, no Father listed and her Mother Sara of 20 Shipbuoy St. was present for the birth. Ann Jane Joss or Jane Joss is a "spinner" I assume meaning worked in the mills of Belfast. At first I thought maybe a clerical error (we are all human and make mistakes) but one birth is in a hospital in 1889 so was thinking Alexander the father may have been away because he was a soldier and then other it advises they are living at 8 Valentine Street in 1889 where 2 other family members are living on Valentine Street also in 1889.
Wish I could figure this out. Maybe being a single parent back then, she left the family but I hope not.
-
Do you have Alexander, b 1918 and Ann Jane after this date?
Whilst Sarah is the informant it doesn’t state a relationship to Ann Jane.
There is no Ann/Jane in the censuses.
Could that mother be a relative from Scotland having her child in Belfast?
-
Hi Heywood
What confuses me is the same parents are listed on each birth record. And then in 1918 when Alexander is born Sara who is present, her address of 20 Shipbuoy is where Alexander and Sara snd their kids lived at after 1901 and into the 1920's. If Ann Jane was the child of a Scottish family member why use the names of Alex and Sara as parents??
-
The most common reason is that the child was illegitimate, similar to when grandparents claim parentage of a child. It seems that not registering a child as illegitimate was more important to some people than others. Ann/Jane may be under a different surname in 1901?
Debra :)
-
That is a very plausible explanation, Dundee and likely to be the case.
If Ann Jane was Jane from 1889, she would be 29 years old in 1918 when she had Alexander. Where was she in 1901 and 1911?
There is a published tree (bare) with:
Alexander Craig Joss - birth December 1918, Belfast (birth indexes)
Death:1985
Spouse: Margretta Gilmore died 1989
Both burials in Roselawn Cemetery, Belfast
I wonder if this is him?
-
Not to confuse the matter but Sara Joss who was present at Alexander’s birth in 1918 was her self illegitimate, so maybe her husband had a sister who had the baby and then Sarah and Alexander registered the baby as “theirs”. As far as I could discover Sara was an only child but I have never been able to find a birth record. On Sara’s marriage record her Father is listed as Robert Strain a caulker. Tried marriage for Robert Strain and Sara’s Mother Jane Graham but found nothing. Jane Graham was from Monaghan but Sara is born in Co. Antrim. No doubt a family mystery. Will have to see if I can find any sisters born in Scotland of Alexander Joss.
Thanks everyone with these ideas and suggestions!! My curiosity is getting to me. I want to know but realize you don’t always get your answers😉😉
-
I think there's a simple reason for the 2 registrations.
1. Elizabeth Joss
born 02 February 1889
8 Valentine St. Belfast
Father: Alexander Joss and Mother: Sara (Strain)
Birth registered 23 Feb 1889 to John Barron - ID#9244501
These are my ancestors 100%
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02488/1923147.pdf
It's possible the father went to register the child and gave the home address as place of birth/thought child was born at home (remember he was in Scotland) or registrar assumed child born at home (as was more common). The fact that parents called their daughter Elizabeth in later records seems to confirm this is the child of those parents.
2. Jane Joss
born 04 June 1889
no address but says (lying in hospital bed) Father from Scotland which is true
Father: Alexander Joss Mother: Sara Strain
Birth registered 17 August 1889 to John Johnston (Informant A. Clegg occupier at hospital)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02466/1915939.pdf
Note that lots of other births from the Lying in Hospital (not 'lying in hospital bed') on same page. The informant 'A. Clegg' would have been a member of staff at the Hospital. The name Jane for the child could have been an error and it looks like a batch of registrations were done by the hospital at a later date long after they were supposed to be done & mistakes were made. If you were to check the other births for that date there may be other duplicate registrations as well.
So, looks like the only mistake on Elizabeth's registration was place of birth. Date of birth likely correct one. The registration for Jane has, it would seem, incorrect name, date of birth but correct place of birth & parents.
-
A quick check of Sarah's marriage address (52 Artillery Street) in the Belfast street directories of the 1870s-80s shows a Robert Graham there, followed by a Martha Graham. A Robert Graham with that address is buried in public ground at Belfast City Cemetery:
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7499.5162
His 1881 death registration indicates birth around 1820, says that he's married and shows a son John as informant:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1881/06453/4854791.pdf
A Martha Graham is buried with other Graham and Joss family in F1 9 at the City Cemetery:
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx?GraveSection=F1&GraveNumber=9&CemeteryName=City%20Cemetery
Her 1905 death registration indicates birth around 1824, says that she is the widow of Robert Graham, and identifies Sarah Joss (the informant) as her grand daughter:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05596/4572962.pdf
Edited to add:
Also noticed that Sarah Joss is the informant for this Leathem son born in 1897 to mother Margaret Graham:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1897/02109/1802742.pdf
1901 (Margaret b. Monaghan)?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Dock_Ward/Valentine_Street/937987/
-
Gaffy I'm so sorry for all the work you have done and provided, but I already have that. Robert and Martha Graham from 52 Artillery St were Sarah Joss's Grandparents. Sarah's Mother was Jane Graham. Sarah I believe was born illegitimate as when Jane Graham died she is listed as spinster and I can't find any birth record for Sarah or marriage record for Jane Graham to Robert Strain which was entered on Sara's marriage record. Sara and Alexander only had one daughter Elizabeth Joss born in 1889. She marries and has several children and her Father Alexander ends up living with her and her husband Albert Davidson, later when Sarah dies in 1925. That is 100% accurate. So unless she was named Elizabeth Jane or Elizabeth Ann Jane and the hospital staff made several errors when recording the birth information, there must be a sister of Alexander Joss who came from Scotland, so maybe the sister came over to Belfast to have the baby as was suggested and they registered the baby as theirs?? Again so sorry for all the trouble, but I did learn about people who did and did not registered illegitimate births and also the hospital staff and the clerical errors that seem to have occurred a lot.
Thank you everyone. Stay safe and appreciate all your efforts to help me.
-
Gaffy I'm so sorry for all the work you have done and provided, but I already have that.
Fair enough, at least I know not to waste any more time. :)
-
Have you read through my earlier reply? I still think it is very highly unlikely that there were two separate children registered with the same parents but one illegitimate.
-
Aghadowey,
Yes I did read your comment and after reading a second and third time, I now believe your explanation of events is correct!!! Sorry, for my daftness in reading but not actually fully understanding what you meant the first time.
I appreciate very much everyones help. Thanks again.
Cheers