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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Sandiehawk on Saturday 11 September 21 10:56 BST (UK)

Title: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Saturday 11 September 21 10:56 BST (UK)
I'm hoping to find out if I can confirm if Charles Henry Briggs was admitted to the Randwick Asylum for Destitute Children in Sydney Australia on 6 Aug 1866.
Charles b 16 Jun 1858 Towrang, New South Wales.
Married Louisa M Kennewell 5 Oct 1876.
Died 13 Jun 1929 North Sydney.
His father was William Briggs 1806-1858.
Mother Ann Smith 1829-1900.
William Briggs died when Charles was just 6 months old.
 Charles was the seventh child, not all still living.
Ann next married George Brown in 1862 and their two children were born in 1865 and 1869.
The Asylum register states that Charles father was dead and his mother could not support him.  He was admitted at 8 and a half years old and apprenticed when 13 years. I can't decipher the actual date.
 Is there a way to confirm that this is my ancestor?
Thank you for any help.
Sandie.

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 11 September 21 11:05 BST (UK)
I have asked the moderator to move your post to the Australia board. 
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Saturday 11 September 21 12:16 BST (UK)
Hi,

May I ask a question or two  :)

From the 1876 marriage registration,  what is recorded on that document for  :) William's occupation,  and also for
 :) the names of Charles' mother?   

Both those pieces of information would be provided by Charles to the clergyman when organising the 1876 marriage.  Charles would likely have relied on info from his mum or his older siblings.   If there are blanks on the registration, then you may need to research further, as those NSW BDM elusive blanks are commonly found on NSW BDM summary registration for that era. 

The NSW State Archives has the  full Destitute Children's records for Randwick. 

JM



Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Saturday 11 September 21 13:41 BST (UK)
Charles father William Briggs was a brickmaker and his mother was Ann Smith. I did mention her name in my original question.
Can you tell me how I would access the full records for the Asylum?
I found the entry on Ancestry and presumed that Charles was admitted to the asylum, became apprenticed and at a later stage, re-joined his family. He worked as a carpenter.
He is named on his mothers death certificate.
Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Saturday 11 September 21 14:10 BST (UK)
Does that 1876 marriage registration record actually record :

.....
May I ask a question or two  :)

From the 1876 marriage registration,  what is recorded on that document for  :) William's occupation,  and also for
 :) the names of Charles' mother?   
.....

I can see that the C of E  baptisms for Charles and his older siblings give their father as a brickmaker, but I am asking about the 1876 marriage record as that can help your research re the boy on the Randwick admissions papers.

The NSW State Archives has various partnership arrangements with commercial websites, including Ancestry and FindMyPast.  But the actual records are at the Archives and are often far more extensive than the images that are available via subscriptions on those commercial websites.

NSW State Archives website has webinars on many topics readily available, no charge:   e.g.
Children in Care in the 19th and early 20th centuries

They also have a printable online guide, and  a detailed background briefing and a list of some fantastic books and booklets re the Randwick facility and it's records. 

JM


Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Saturday 11 September 21 14:17 BST (UK)
 :)

Re Ann, Charles' mum.... so does Charles 1876 marriage show his mum as Ann BROWN, formerly BRIGGS, and with her maiden name as SMITH ... 

JM.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 11 September 21 14:49 BST (UK)
BDM NSW births
BRIGGS William       254/1845 V1845254 32A      parents William / Ann
BRIGGS Betsey        1352/1849 V18491352 34A   parents William / Ann
BRIGGS Thomas       2029/1851 V18512029 37A  parents William / Ann
BRIGGS Charles H    3472/1854 V18543472 40    parents William / Ann
BRIGGS Alice S L     4634/1856                          parents William / Ann       @  Goulburn
BRIGGS Charles H    7199/1858                           parents William / Ann      @  Goulburn


Ancestry Register for Asylum for Destitute Children

BRIGGS John  admitted 4 Jul 1865  5 1/2 y Prot from B.A  dearture 29 Aug 1873  13y
father dead  deserted by mother  apprenticed to Dr ........DOWE Tamworth

BRIGGS Alice admitted 1865    9y  Prot.  from B.A  departure 20 Feb 1869  13 yrs
father dead  deserted by mother  apprenticed to * BRIGGS of North Shore
(written over to be M. BAILEY)

Alice, 13y at 1869 would be born 1856.

BRIGGS Charles   admitted 6 Aug 1866   6 1/2 y   C of E  Prot  departure 18 July ****
father dead mother is unable to support him  apprenticed to  ***** Mr FLEMING(?) Burwood 


Is this your Alice BRIGGS, and a brother John...born after death of William BRIGGS?

These entries will be all that is recorded for these children. There will be no file.

Sydney Benevolent Asylum
https://sydneybenevolentasylum.com/index.php?page=search-index

BRIGGS   Charles           admitted        3 Oct 1863      5y   
BRIGGS   Charles      discharged      6 Aug 1866           8y

BRIGGS   Alice                   admitted         3 Oct 1863       7y   
BRIGGS   Alice              discharged      3 Apr 1865            7y

BRIGGS   John                   admitted        16 Nov 1863      3y   
BRIGGS   John              discharged      25 Jul 1865            3y

BRIGGS   Ann                   admitted         3 Oct 1863      31y   
BRIGGS   Ann              discharged      14 Nov 1863   31y
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Sunday 12 September 21 01:12 BST (UK)
Majm, you asked for information from Charles marriage certificate with Louisa M Kennewell and that's what I've provided.
I'm not sure what you are asking for if that's not want you wanted.

Wivenhoe, thank you for the information. The entry for Charles is what I was asking about.
 I didn't know of the other children being in care but Alice was born in 1856 so she fits.
There was a Thomas J born 1851. Perhaps he is John?

Sandie
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 12 September 21 01:19 BST (UK)
When I look at the register entry to which I think you are referring, I see quite clearly-

Charles Briggs
Admitted 6th August 1866 aged 8 and a half years old

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 12 September 21 01:33 BST (UK)
I'm sure you have this snip, but for those interested, this little item about his death supports his birthdate of 1858.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16553821

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Sunday 12 September 21 01:54 BST (UK)
Thank you Sparrett, I do have that notice. So sad that he died in the street.
I have two lovely photos of him and Louisa.  One when they were young and the other many years later.  They are my great grandparents.
Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 12 September 21 03:10 BST (UK)
  He was admitted at 6 and a half years old and apprenticed when 13 years. I can't decipher the actual date.
 Is there a way to confirm that this is my ancestor?
Thank you for any help.
Sandie.
Please see my reply #8
To correct your records

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Sunday 12 September 21 03:56 BST (UK)
The 1876 marriage registration is indexed at NSW BDM online as registered in the Raymond Terrace district.  While some of the NSW BDM records from the 1870s marriages do have ALL the information that the couples provided to the clergy, those from outside of the Sydney Metro area can contain many blanks, as many of the clergy across all denomination were submitting summary info only due to a long standing dispute with the NSW BDM Registrar General's office...

Charles Henry BRIGGS and Louisa KENNEWELL, Raymond Terrace District #4052/1876

So it is good to know that the 1876 marriage registration for Charles Henry BRIGGS had been fully reconciled by the NSW BDM and that it has full detailed responses in all ten columns, including the occupation for Charles' father.    May I presume that Charles mother's names are ALL recorded, showing her BROWN surname, her former married surname BRIGGS and her maiden surname as well.
 
As Charles was not yet 21 years of age when he married, the registration ought to record who provided consent for him to marry.   Afterall, he had not yet reached his majority, and thus he could not give his own consent.  The clergy should have recorded those details on the civil registration.

http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_act/ma1855n30112/



JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Sunday 12 September 21 04:17 BST (UK)
William and Ann BRIGGS had two sons who were baptised Charles Henry BRIGGS at St Saviour's, Goulburn..... (They had more than 2 children baptised at St Saviour's  :)  but two were Christened Charles Henry).

Charles Henry born 22 May 1854, baptised 11 June 1854, C of E, St Saviour, Goulburn by Rev. William J M Hillyar.  William Briggs recorded there as a Brickmaker,  residing Goulburn.   JM notes that the parish register has Anne (with an 'e').

Charles Henry, born 16 June 1858, baptised 11 July 1858, C of E,  St Saviour, Goulburn by Rev William Sowerby.  William Briggs recorded there as a Brickmaker, residing Towrang.  JM notes that the parish register has Ann (without an 'e').

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: judb on Sunday 12 September 21 04:51 BST (UK)
NSW BMD shows this death which is probably for the first child; no parent names are shown on this index.

Charles BRIGGS M1094/1855 V18551094 43A  INFANT

Judith
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Sunday 12 September 21 04:54 BST (UK)
I'm more confused now than when I first posted.
On Charles 1876 marriage registration his mother is only Ann Smith. Her other two married names are not stated.
There is no mention of consent being given.
On Charles birth registration in 1858 it states 5 boys and 3 girls living and 1 boy and 1 girl deceased. I can't account for them all.
On Ann Smith/ Brown/ Rice's death registration it states William C Briggs 52.
Thomas J Briggs 48.
Alice S L 46.
Charles 43.
On William Briggs death registration (1858)
William 10.
Thomas 8.
Betsy 6.
Alice 2 and a half.
Charles 7 months.
I presume the Charles Henry who was born in 1854 had died before 1858.
Sandie.

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 12 September 21 05:03 BST (UK)
Who was the informant on each of the death certificates?
William's and Ann's
Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Sunday 12 September 21 06:01 BST (UK)
 :)

NSW BMD shows this death which is probably for the first child; no parent names are shown on this index.

Charles BRIGGS M1094/1855 V18551094 43A  INFANT

Judith

That would be an Early Church Record of a burial.  Civil registration commenced 1 March 1856.    :) 

 :)

So focusing on our OPs question re how to confirm if the 1866 admission to Randwick is for the son of the brickmaker, William BRIGGS who died when Charles was 7 months of age ...

Again, from the 1876 marriage ...  Does that record clearly show official  endorsements confirming the date/s that the various church registers were reconciled with the civil registers (dates likely to  fall somewhere  between 1911 to 1915) ....  IF you are looking at the certified copy issued by NSW bdm  it would likely be lower Right hand margin notes....   O R if it is an admin official transcription, it would be as a note at the conclusion. 

I have had a long phone conversation with one of my ancient rellies ... a retired senior officer from NSW bdm.   He confirms it is unusual for the NSW BDM copy of a  regional marriage pre 1880  to be fully reconciled to church registers and thus to include any info about the parents of the couple being married.   He mentioned that as Charles father was deceased, that his mother could have given consent.  The clergy could have been fined 500 pounds for failing to record who provided consent.

So perhaps you need to follow up on the Benevolent Society records prior to the Randwick records.   

I think you need to be looking out for an official record in the 1860s  mentioning Henry as his middle name and naming his mother as Mrs Brown.

Perhaps the official witnesses for the 1876 marriage match up to people who are named in the Randwick records ...  the NSW archives guide lists quite a number of resources that deserve checking, but which may not be online.

JM

Modified to amend some spelling errors.   ::)  lists does not have "u" in it.   :-[ :-[ :-[

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 12 September 21 06:11 BST (UK)
I think that the records from the Sydney Benevolent Asylum would be of more use to you than would records from the Randwick Asylum.

Ann BRIGGS, plus Alice and Charles are admitted together so you might hope to see something more than names and ages.

By the time Alice and John are admitted to the Randwick Asylum, 1865, from the B(enevolent)A(sylum)  they are recorded as children of deceased father, and mother who has deserted. There might be details relating to attempts to contact mother or other relatives.

Can you include the names of informants for the Birth certificate, Charles BRIGGS.

Can you name informant for death certificate, William BRIGGS, 1858, and cause of death.

William BRIGGS died, 1858, and Ann has her next child 1865?. I think it is very likely that Ann has another child (John?) before the birth of BROWN children.

https://sydneybenevolentasylum.com/
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Sunday 12 September 21 06:19 BST (UK)
The informant on William Briggs death (1858) was his wife Ann and she was the informant on her son Charles birth.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Monday 13 September 21 01:50 BST (UK)
Majm,  I'm sorry but I don't understand what I'm looking for on the marriage registration for Charles.
What should I see in the bottom right corner or at the end of the notes?

If there was a child (John?) born before William died in Dec 1858 and after Charles was born then Ann would have to be expecting again within that six months.

He and Louisa were married in a house at Nelson Plains according to the rites of the Presbyterian Church. The ceremony was conducted by Robert Boag LLD. Presbyterian minister at Hinton church.

I have asked for more information from Sydney Benevolent Asylum.
I don't think the entry for Ann could be correct as she was already married again at that time.
Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Monday 13 September 21 03:20 BST (UK)
I have just received more details from the Sydney Benevolent Asylum.
It seems Ann 31, Alice 7, Charles 5 and John 3 were admitted to the Asylum on 3 Oct 1863.

Ann and John absconded on 14 Nov 1863.

John "thrown over the fence" on 16 Nov 1863.

Alice sent to Randwick on 3 Apr 1865.

John sent on 25 Jul 1865.

Charles sent on 6 Aug 1866.
Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 13 September 21 07:24 BST (UK)

Benevolent Asylum....are you looking at an image of original handwritten documents?.  I am surprised that you have been able to receive written information from the Benevolent Asylum so quickly.

Using NSM BDM Index -

https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search/marriages?18

can you please identify the marriage of Ann BRIGGS nee SMITH, and George BROWN.

John BRIGGS is recorded with age that gives a birth after the 1858 death of Charles Henry BRIGGS.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Monday 13 September 21 07:37 BST (UK)
Wivenhoe, I have from the Sydney Benevolent Asylum a printed list of the admission/discharge details of the Briggs members that I requested. I've asked for all relevant documents about them. This will take a bit longer and there is a fee.

I haven't been able to see a marriage document for Ann and George brown yet. Just on Ancestry trees and on the marriage registration that I have for Ann and third husband Frederick Rice.

Not sure what you mean about John's birth being after the death of Charles H Briggs 1858.

Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Monday 13 September 21 08:51 BST (UK)
Quite possibly there was not a BRIGGS/BROWN marriage, but there was need to make the children's births seem legitimate. So it was just stated as fact.
Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Monday 13 September 21 12:11 BST (UK)
I agree with Sue,  it is quite possible there was no formal marriage for the widow, Ann BRIGGS to a Mr BROWN.   There was no cross checking by NSW BDM  officials re the family history details on official records.

I agree with wivenhoe,  the B.A. records take some time to access even when there is no lockdown delays.  The info already posted is easily found  and deduced from the online index.  John BRIGGS aged 3 in late 1863  can be half brother to Ann's older children.   Ann is listed on that index as Briggs,  but it is only an index, so it is not clear what surname she was actually known by at that time.   

It is logical for the B.A (and many other institutions, churches, schools, courts, neighbours) in that era to refer to the mother of children in their care as Mrs. and as a courtesy assume she had the same surname as the one her children use.   So the older children would have first hand knowledge/ memories of their dad,  and know he was Mr BRIGGS, hence all the children would be known by that surname .... 

Re the 1876 marriage document.  Are you looking at a certified copy, or an official tranacription?   Is its orientation in portrait or landscape....  if it is a certified copy, did you purchase it directly from NSW bdm or had it been shared?   

The reason I ask is simply that it is quite unusual to find a fully reconciled marriage registration for that era.  Many/most of the clergy across the various denominations (Church of England, Roman Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist and many others)  ....were NOT yet prepared to fully inform the secular administration at NSW Registrar Generals Office, re tge couples being married.  It was a long running dispute.... 1856 to mid 1890s. 

In around 1910, the NSW government commenced funding to reconcile their own bdm marriage registers with the clergy records held by the churches. 

The reconciliation process started with the churches in Sydney.  World War I diverted the experienced officers in the NSW bdm to clerical duties at AIF base records.  The NSW bdm reconcilation process has not resumed  it has been, stalled for over 100 years. Soon no one will be around who can eadily read the longhand handwriting as that style ceased being taught in NSW in the 1960s.   

When a m.c. had been reconciled, the clerks recorded which church registers and dates had been inspected and the senior officers then audited and re-certified in the margin.

If your copy is in portrait orientation, the margin to inspect is bottom right hand corner.  If it is landacape, the margin entey can be after the formal entry and before the signature of the certifying officer.  If it is an official transcription, the Agent notes it as an endorsement .... some marriages registered in the years 1856 to 1881 needed up to five church registers to be inspected before the place of birth, age and occupation of the bride and groom AND the names and occupation of theur dads, and the names, former names and maiden names of their mums were finally known to the NSW bdm Registrar Generals office. 

BUT, the clergy would usually note who provides consent where either or both were not yet 21.  That consent info was usually noted in the 'white space' near where the clergy cited which set of rites. (Add.... as mentioned in earlier post, 500 pounds fine if clergy did not obtain proper consent ... thats a fine equivalent to several years salary, so you would expect clergy would record consent on summary sent through at the time of initial registration)

JM (one finger typing, into tiny dialigue box please excuse spelling)

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Monday 13 September 21 13:14 BST (UK)
The marriage registration is in landscape orientation. In a box above and to the right of the relevant information are the words  "Certified copy furnished under part v of the Registration of Births. Deaths and Marriages Act, 1973"

Underneath the names, dates etc are the words "I, Vernon Mark Bennett, hereby certify that the above is a true copy of particulars recorded in a register kept by me"

Further on the bottom right is the signature of the Principal Registrar next to " Issued at Sydney 17th Oct 1988"  and a round stamp/seal.

The document was purchased by someone else and shared with me.

I have other marriage certificates where the father has given consent but it's not on this document.

I don't know yet what happened to
Betsey, born 1849
Charles H, born 1854 and presumably died before 1858
John, born abt 1860.

The only children noted on Ann's death registration were
 William C.
Thomas J.
Alice S L.
Charles.
1 male and 1 female deceased.




Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: judb on Monday 13 September 21 13:31 BST (UK)
You say:
I don't know yet what happened to Betsey, born 1849
Charles H, born 1854 and presumably died before 1858
John, born abt 1860.


Please see my reply #14

NSW BMD shows this death which is probably for the first child; no parent names are shown on this index.

NSW 1855
Charles BRIGGS, Infant
M1094/1855 V18551094 43A 


Judith
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Monday 13 September 21 13:51 BST (UK)
May I suggest that it would be sensible to consider purchasing an official transcription of the 1876 m.c.  it is entirely possible that the shared copy you are relying on at present has had non certified information added by well intented family history buffs without citing the sources.  The official transcription will have all the information recorded on the NSW bdm record and may well have blanks for details in some columns as from your recent tepky, it seems the record has not been officially fully reconciled to the Rev Boag's register/s.   

Have you considered providing the names of the witnesses to that marriage? 

Red Post.... yes,  most likely thats the burial.  It will have scant info, but it will have clergy by name and cemetery, so the church record may be with the rest of the Diocese archival records...   again, the official transcripton is tge less expensive option.

JM.

I have added info, and sorted spelling, so see next post as it is updated version.


Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Monday 13 September 21 14:07 BST (UK)
Deleted,  triplicate ....  ::) sorry
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Monday 13 September 21 14:14 BST (UK)
May I suggest that it would be sensible to consider purchasing an official transcription of the 1876 m.c.  it is entirely possible that the ishared copy you are relying on at present has had non certified information added by well intented family history buffs without citing the sources.  The official transcription will have all the information recorded on the NSW bdm record and may well have blanks for details in some columns as from your recent reply, it seems the record has not been officially fully reconciled to the Rev Boag's register/s.   Sorry but you are seeking to confirm that the chap who married in 1876 is the son of the chap who died in 1858 and the mum, Ann nee the most popular surname, SMITH, a widowed lady who was admitted with several of her children to the Benevolent Society's facilities in the early 1860s and her children then spent much of their childhood as though orphans.

Have you considered providing the names of the witnesses to that marriage? 

Red Post.... yes,  most likely thats the burial.  It will have scant info, but it will have clergy by name and cemetery, so the church record may be with the rest of the Diocese archival records...   again, the official transcripton is tge less expensive option.

JM.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 13 September 21 14:34 BST (UK)
The Maitland Mercury and Hunter River General Advertiser 6 Nov 1880 p3
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/813204?
IF this should MEET the EYE of JOHN BRIGGS age 19 years, native of Goulburn, NSW will he please send his address to his brother.

Charles Briggs
Nelsons Plains
Raymond Terrace


Australian Town and Country Journal 11 Dec 1880 p5
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/70950522?
WANTED, the address of John BRIGGS, a native of Goulburn, 19 years old. Last heard
of living with Dr. DOWE, Tamworth, N.S.W. Anyone knowing his whereabouts please address to his Brother CHARLES BRIGGS, Nelson's Plains, Raymond Terrace.

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Monday 13 September 21 23:21 BST (UK)


Dr Joshua DOWE, M.D. had died in 1875.   NSW BDM #9920/1875. 
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223584606  NSW Govt Gaz 14 Sept 1875
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/70585245  Aust Town & Country 11 Sep 1875

Grevilles PO Directory, Tamworth, 1875
Joshua DOWE, M.D., Marius Street.   

NSW Electoral roll 1878 THE LOWER HUNTER
Charles BRIGGS, residence, Nelson's Plains  (JM notes there are no others with that surname listed on that roll, but that others on that roll include many with more than just one given name  :) )

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Tuesday 14 September 21 06:18 BST (UK)
Wivenhoe, I have from the Sydney Benevolent Asylum a printed list of the admission/discharge details of the Briggs members that I requested. I've asked for all relevant documents about them. This will take a bit longer and there is a fee.

I haven't been able to see a marriage document for Ann and George brown yet. Just on Ancestry trees and on the marriage registration that I have for Ann and third husband Frederick Rice.

Not sure what you mean about John's birth being after the death of Charles H Briggs 1858.

Sandie.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/263975349 Yass Courier 9  July 1864.     

On the 5th of July, at the Wesleyan Church, Gunning, by license, by the Rev. W. Hill, Mr. Simon Brown widower, to Mrs. Ann Frances Bryan, widow, both of Frankfield; New South Wales.
 
A submitted tree has that marriage to support their belief that Ann, the widow of William BRIGGS, married a Mr Brown who died at Muttama 23 June 1876.  I expect that marriage will be NSW BDM 3451/1864, and I expect it to have the usual elusive blanks, just as I expect her next marriage will also have elusive blanks.  Annie Frances BROWN next married Frederick RICE 27 December 1876. NSW BDM 2802/1876.

Here is a thread from the NSW resources board here at RChat.  I did this thread up years and years ago, and it is now quite long.  But it explains about those elusive blanks in columns 5,7, 9 and 10 of the NSW BDM marriage certificates (same column numbers whether landscape or portrait, just the location of the endorsement by NSW BDM for reconciliation can vary). 

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0

Please do consider obtaining fresh official transcriptions.  Here is another link re NSW official transcription services. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html

I am attaching a snip showing the endorsement in 1915 of a Presbyterian marriage (Scots Church, Sydney) and they had progressed through 356 church registers (that's not just Presbyterian ones !) by that stage, when the admin staff (clerks) were needed either to pass medicals to enlist or if not fit enough, to at least be available for all the clerical admin duties supporting the AIF.  All longhand written info at that time was recorded on pre-printed forms, no typewriters except for official letters.

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Tuesday 14 September 21 06:40 BST (UK)
https://www.nsw.gov.au/births-deaths-marriages/about-us/history-of-registry

The task of reconciling the early church records and amending the marriage registrations was never finalised. Therefore, the Registry's records from these years are not complete. It is recommended that people wanting as much information as possible about an official event check the original church record. In this way, details missing from a transcribed marriage certificate or a baptism record having no corresponding civil registration record could be located.

1895
Marriage registrations are now required to include the age and birthplace of the parties, their parents' names and occupation of their fathers. These details were required from the 1855 Act, however, while they appeared in a church register they did not appear in the official records.

1918
The widespread use of notification forms for registering events comes into effect. Before this most events were registered following verbal advice from the informant.


JM  :D  :D  :D
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 14 September 21 06:58 BST (UK)
Well, thanks to JM's good work there, we can discard the assertions in the Ancestry tree which has confused 2 women named Ann BROWN.
 It has asserted that Ann BRIGGS married Simon BROWN. (Wrong) Widowed again, she married Frederick RICE (Wrong )

In fact Ann BRIGGS, our person of interest, partnered with George BROWN.
She did not ever marry Frederick RICE.

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Tuesday 14 September 21 07:05 BST (UK)
Yes,  thats my thoughts too.

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Tuesday 14 September 21 07:24 BST (UK)
I have a copy of a document that was shared with me for the marriage of Annie Frances Brown to Frederick Rice on 27 Dec 1876 at Gundagai.
It's a New South Wales Historical Certificate and has a Local Court House Registeration Number 416 of 1876. Particulars filled in are,
When and where married.
Names and surnames of parties.
Rank or profession.
Usual place of residence.
Condition of parties.
Birthplace.
Age in years.
Father's Christian and Surname.
Mother's Christian and Surname.
Father's rank or profession.
Married at.
According to the rights of.
In the presence of us.
At the bottom of the page is a signed declaration that this is a true copy of particulars in a register etc.
Every section has been filled in.
Does this mean that Ann did marry Frederick Rice?
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 14 September 21 07:32 BST (UK)
What is in the separate columns on that certificate that convinces you that it is Ann SMITH/ BRIGGS/BROWN  not Ann BRYAN/BROWN who married Fred RICE?

Sue

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Tuesday 14 September 21 07:40 BST (UK)
It confirms that a chap named Ftederick RICE married a lady named Annie BROWN.   

It does not provide any information to suggest if she was the mother of the lad named as Charles Henry BRIGGs and who married in 1876 at Nelsons Plains.

SMITH and BROWN surnames are the two most popular NSW surnames. 

In my view you need to consider spending less than $20 on an official transcription of Charles and Louusa's marriage and investigate from there back to the relevant church register.  Then search out his parentage.   And from there cross match or otherwise to the Randwick papers and the Benevolent papers.

There are many instances of missing records,  especially 1860s and 1870s at NSW bdm.

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Tuesday 14 September 21 07:46 BST (UK)
Majm, I have already applied for Charles and Louisa's MC, should be here in about a week. I will certainly do as you suggest.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Tuesday 14 September 21 07:48 BST (UK)
I have a copy of a document that was shared with me for the marriage of Annie Frances Brown to Frederick Rice on 27 Dec 1876 at Gundagai.
It's a New South Wales Historical Certificate and has a Local Court House Registeration Number 416 of 1876. Particulars filled in are,
When and where married.
Names and surnames of parties.
Rank or profession.
Usual place of residence.
Condition of parties.
Birthplace.
Age in years.
Father's Christian and Surname.
Mother's Christian and Surname.
Father's rank or profession.
Married at.
According to the rights of.
In the presence of us.
At the bottom of the page is a signed declaration that this is a true copy of particulars in a register etc.
Every section has been filled in.
Does this mean that Ann did marry Frederick Rice?

Does it really say " according to the rights of"  ....  and pkease confirm the name of the celebrant conducting the ceremony.

JM...my crooked finger cannot spell.  :'(
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Tuesday 14 September 21 07:59 BST (UK)
On the first page it states that the marriage was solemnized by Archibald Smith, District Registrar.

On the second page it states the Marriage was conducted by Arch S Smith according to the rights of  Acts of council 19 Vic.  Nos 30&34.  Officiating minister has been crossed out.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Tuesday 14 September 21 08:37 BST (UK)
Does it really use the the spelling
 'rights'  .....  It is citng the NSW marriage Acts nos 30 & 34 of  1855.  I.e. the 19th year of Queen Victorias reign.

I seems to be a registry office marriage,  so not a Reverend conducting a combined civil and church ceremony. If so, there won't be any church record.  So you won't be able to rely on that record to join dots back to the William Briggs who died 1858 using that 1876 marriage.   

On the first page it states that the marriage was solemnized by Archibald Smith, District Registrar.

On the second page it states the Marriage was conducted by Arch S Smith according to the rights of  Acts of council 19 Vic.  Nos 30&34.  Officiating minister has been crossed out.

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Tuesday 14 September 21 09:07 BST (UK)
I wrote down the EXACT  wording from the document.
Yes it does say "According to the rites of"  on the left side and (Religion) on the right.
next to that is the wording "Acts of Council 19 Vic. Nos 30 & 34.
I presume it's a civil marriage as there's no minister named. It was conducted at Gundagai.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 14 September 21 09:31 BST (UK)
Hi
Are there any other entries on the certificate that identify her as the woman you are searching and no other?

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Tuesday 14 September 21 10:14 BST (UK)
Only what I have already posted.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 14 September 21 10:21 BST (UK)
Do you see names of witnesses?.
Title: Re: Charles Henry Briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Tuesday 14 September 21 10:28 BST (UK)
Witnessed by H. S. Smith and H. L. Norton.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 14 September 21 10:33 BST (UK)


Do you see any locations/addresses?

Do you see any ages?

Do you see occupations?

Who signs?....who gives their mark?
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Tuesday 14 September 21 11:01 BST (UK)
When and where married.                                 27th December 1876.   Gundagai.

Names and surnames of parties.                     Frederick Rice.    Annie Frances Brown.

Rank or profession. (Groom)                            Shepherd.

Usual place of residence.         (Groom) Muttama, Gundagai.       (Bride)  Muttama, Gundagai.

Condition of parties.                (Groom)  Batchelor.                      (Bride)  Widow.

Birthplace.                              (Groom) Liverpool England.  (Bride)  Penrith new South Wales.

Age in years.                         (Groom)  55 years.                (Bride)   44 years.

Father's Christian and Surname.                (Groom)  Frederick Rice.        (Bride)  John Smith.

Mother's Christian and Surname.      (Groom) Catherine Fegan         (Bride)  Sarah Townsend.

Father's rank or profession.              (Groom)  porter.                        (Bride)  Soldier.

Married at    (place)          Gundagai.

According to the rites of       (religion)   Acts of Council 19 Vic. Nos 30 & 34

In the presence of us:   1st witness  H.S. Smith.       2nd witness   H. L. Norton.

By me, (name)  Arch. S. Smith.         Registrar.

Recieved and registered by me, this (date)  27th day of (month) December 1876.
(name)  Archibald Scott Smith      District Registrar.

The area for consent is not filled in as they were both of legal age.

I  Bradley James Warden   certify that the entry above is a true copy of particulars recorded in a register kept by me.
Issued at Gundagai this day 27th of February 1996.  Signature of Local registrar.
                                                                                               bw

  That's everything on the document.
               
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Tuesday 14 September 21 23:26 BST (UK)
 :D
You may have many hurdles to sort back further than John SMITH, soldier,  but from a quick armchair sweep of indexes I can see at least one ‘candidate’ may be:
 :) Private John SMITH, 3rd Regiment of Foot, 4th & 5th Company, arrived per the Guildford, NSW 25 December 1822. 
 :) Was serving at Fort Dundas, Melville Island departing Sydney on the Countess of Hardcourt 24 August 1824, returning as part of a detachment to NSW some time between 1 November 1824 and 30 April 1825, sick. and was stationed on the sub-continent, at Calcutta from January 1827 to October 1827. 
 :) :) :) See the NSW Col Sec Papers Index re this soldier, and also under the heading ‘Melville Island’.    https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/colonial-secretarys-papers 

A tad further armchair looking :
 :) It seems that a chap named John SMITH originally served in The Buffs, after enlisting at Cork in Ireland for 14 years. 
 :) When the Buffs tour of duty in NSW was concluding, he transferred to the 39th Regiment, into Company 9 and he took his discharge with gratuity in Sydney 30 June 1832.  May I suggest:
Paylists etc should be available via the AJCP see   https://www.nla.gov.au/using-library/research-tools-and-resources/australian-joint-copying-project   Paylists can be useful in determining the marital status and number of children of the soldier based on the pay rate changes etc.  https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=829521.0

Also Biographical Database of Australia is a not for profit ongoing indexing project; there is a nominal annual subscription of $38, but you can look at the indexes without any subscription expenses.    https://www.bda-online.org.au/   


I have not looked for Mrs Sarah SMITH (wife of John) or for Ann SMITH born circa 1829, Penrith NSW, but it seems likely to me that Ann would not have been the eldest child of Sarah and John SMITH.  Perhaps they will be listed as a family in the 1828 NSW Census?  https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=810812.0

As yet, I cannot see any connection between this Ann who married Frederick RICE and the lass who entered the Benevolent Society’s facilities in 1863. 

May share some off topic issues....
My husband and I are still 'stuck' in Sydney, locked down safely, etc but it is a tad difficult to access my hardcopy folders on SMITH in NSW research across the decades because those records are in our own home, up the coast, also in lockdown.  When we do finally get back to our own home and business, I am sure that our priorities will not include immediately focusing on family history.  Back in early June we had put together several 'dry groceries' packages and driven to ancient rellies in: far western, central western and central tablelands (of NSW) and had continued on to family in Oberon and then drove down the Mountains into Sydney, intending to have a quick stopover.  Yes well that was the week that included June 23,  I say no more.  ::)  I now know how to order groceries, bed linen, etc ONLINE, and to have these items and more delivered 'contactless', oh how I wish I had known how to organise that for all our ancient rellies across NSW back around mid May 2021...   
   

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 September 21 00:25 BST (UK)
Here is some information that indicates an Ann SMITH was likely in the Goulburn district in 1839-1840

A baby boy was born 21 May 1840, no father recorded on the baptism record :
James Evers a natural son of Ann SMITH, a spinster of Towrang, and baptised 13 September 1840, by Rev William Sowerby at St Saviour, C of E, Goulburn.

NSW BDM online index is likely : 1840, Volume 24A,  Line 1346

family search online index: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT6M-7R8

Either this is NOT the same Ann SMITH who married either William BRIGGS or Frederick RICE ....  OR she was NOT aged 10 or even younger when James Evers was conceived.     

Towrang in late 1830s and early 1840s ... it was a small settlement supporting the convicts who were constructing the inland access route from Sydney south to the then new settlement that became Melbourne... https://www.freesettlerorfelon.com/towrang_stockade.html

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Wednesday 15 September 21 00:34 BST (UK)
Thank you so much for all the help so far but I'm now so confused and doubting everything I have in my tree that I think I will just give it all up.

I now don't know which documents that have in my tree as "safe" and where to go next.

I can't justify the cost of applying for documents for everyone in the tree when I already have many that I thought were correct.

I might have to look for a new interest to keep me sane because this family tree certainly isn't helping!
Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 September 21 01:00 BST (UK)
A Sydney baptism    :D

Ann, a daughter of John and Sarah SMITH, residing at Hyde Park, Sydney.  He is recorded as a Private in the Royal Veteran Corps by Rev Richard Hill, St James C of E, Sydney.  That Ann's date of birth is 13 March 1830 and the date of her baptism is 9 May 1830.

   
JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 15 September 21 03:51 BST (UK)


I had been looking at an Ancestry  tree for the BRIGGS family which had images of several BDM transcriptions.  I cannot see it now.

Can someone direct me to it please.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 September 21 04:34 BST (UK)
 ;D  ;D

 I have just now found one, the tree owner has not logged on for at least 3 months.  It has John SMITH 1790 - 1889 and his wife as Sarah HOCKLEY1807-1896, and their daughter Ann (Hannah) F SMITH as 1829-1900.  Ann marries to William Thomas BRIGGS, 1806-1858.  There's an image of their marriage.  Both made X marks.   Ann's next marriage is to George Henry C (Simon) Brown, 4 July 1864, Gunning, - two children, George Henry 17 March 1865, and Catherine 1869, both born Muttama.  That husband dies 23 June 1876.  Ann next marries Frederick Rice.   Ann's father is shown as marrying in NSW 1823 and they note it as BDM 3111/1823 V18233111 3B.  He lived a very long life,  1790 - 1889, his death noted as 8 June 1889, Burwood (NSW).  His wife, Sarah (nee Hockley) her death 27 July 1896 and both burials are noted as Enfield, Burwood municipality, NSW.

Hope that helps you Wivenhoe.



ADD  eliminating this couple John and Sarah SMITH
- St Thomas Cemetery, C of E, Enfield headstones been photographed https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2448410/st.-thomas-anglican-cemetery.   :)  No mention of Ann SMITH as a daughter for that couple.
 
See photo of headstone showing John and Sarah SMITH and her Hockley family members memorialised on same headstone.   
See https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14060431 smh 29 July 1896.  Funeral Announcement for Sarah Smith, widow of John Smith.


JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 15 September 21 06:19 BST (UK)
MJ ......thank you for your assistance. The Ancestry tree that I saw a few days ago had images of several BDM transcriptions, so would seem to be another one.

Sandie...do you, and the other researchers with whom you are working, have a family tree visible to the public eg on Ancestry.

Can you direct me to it.

You do not need a document for every DBM event in the lives of the people you are researching.

Identify a record, and consider why it might be of use to you.  This birth certificate would be useful to you because it is the next recorded event in the life of your Ann, after events at the Sydney Benevolent Asylum and the Randwick Asylum.

It will record previous issue born to this couple.

NSW BDM birth
8691/1865  BROWN George H   parents Simon / Ann F  @  Goulburn

Of the BDM certificates that you have bought, how many do you now consider might be for people other than your family.?  Can you identify them please.

This from you first post -

"Charles was the seventh child, not all still living."

What do you have for the six earlier births?.  What do you have for the death?
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: CassT on Wednesday 15 September 21 07:05 BST (UK)


I had been looking at an Ancestry  tree for the BRIGGS family which had images of several BDM transcriptions.  I cannot see it now.

Can someone direct me to it please.

Hi, depending on how long ago you were looking at the mystery tree, you might be able to find it in your "recent searches in Ancestry".  On ancestry start at "Search"   Below it will show "recent searches" and "+ see more" If you hit the "see more" field up will pop VIEW RECORDS  and RECENT SEARCHES    If you are lucky it might be still there.
 
  Good luck    Cass
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 15 September 21 07:52 BST (UK)
Thank you Cass. I did not succeed with browse of Ancestry, but Google history search found it -

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/173733256/person/322257871460/Gallery?

I am not sure if I am allowed to link to it here.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Wednesday 15 September 21 08:34 BST (UK)
I'm not sure if I want to continue with my family tree as I'm so disheartened and confused now but I will answer some questions that have been posted.

I do have a tree on Ancestry but it's not the one you posted a link to. Mine is Surmon and Briggs Family Tree.
John Smith in my tree was a soldier. I have copies of a discharge document and letter about a land grant. I do understand that these may not be correct though.

The six children born before Charles (1858-1929) are,
William 1845-1845.
William Charles 1847-1945.
Betsey 1849-
Thomas J 1851-
Charles Henry 1854-1855.
Alice Sophie Lee 1856-1942.

Which birth certificate are you referring to? You suggested it might be useful as the next event in the life of Ann.
Sandie
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 15 September 21 10:31 BST (UK)
At your reply #15

"On Charles birth registration in 1858 it states 5 boys and 3 girls living and 1 boy and 1 girl deceased. I can't account for them all."

Are you looking at an image of a hand written document, or a typed transcription?   

The numbers ...3...5...8....can look similar on handwritten records. If you are looking at a transcription it might be the best that the transcriber could manage.  That would make Charles, born 1858, the 11th child of a couple who had been married for 20 years?  Certainly possible.

Most families had a daughter Mary.  You might expect to see Ann/Anne/Annie/Hannah, a daughter named after mother?

Don't be discouraged. We are making good progress. We know there is a son, John, born to Ann after the death of husband Charles BRIGGS, 1858, and before the birth of the BROWN children.

I think the purpose of your original enquiry has been achieved. The Randwick Asylum record is for your Charles BRIGGS, and has led to additional information about Ann BRIGGS and her children.

If pursing this line of enquiry has caused you to reconsider other details on your family tree, see that as a bonus, and I am sure that the forum sleuths here will help you to construct an accurate family tree.

I am thinking that the 1865 birth for George Henry BROWN would be useful to see.

The images of records held by Sydney Benevolent Asylum will be interesting to see when you get them. Are they sending you images of the original records?

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Wednesday 15 September 21 11:24 BST (UK)
I can't see a birth for George H Brown, 1865 or his sister Catherine/Katherine 1865  on the N.S.W.BMD.
They were both mentioned in Thomas J Briggs (1928) death in newspaper as his step-brother and step-sister.

On Charles Briggs birth, it's a hand-written entry.
I'm still certain it's 5 boys and 2 girls living.  3 boys deceased.  I compared the number 3 with another 3 on the document.

Ann and William Briggs were married in 1848 so 10 and not 20 years.

 Ann's death document says William Charles, Thomas J, Alice S L  and Charles, living ( gives their ages)  1 male and 1 female deceased. 
It also says she was 15 when first married (to William Briggs)
This is a typed transcription.

I don't know what the entries from the Asylum will look like, they didn't say.

I've also wondered what happened to Ann's older children when she took the younger one's into the Asylum. William C would have been about 15-16 and Thomas J only about 12.
I suppose they could have already been working for someone or living with relatives. Perhaps Ann had siblings.
  However I don't need to start worrying about them just now.

Sandie.

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Thursday 16 September 21 03:27 BST (UK)
I can't see a birth for George H Brown, 1865 or his sister Catherine/Katherine 1865  on the N.S.W.BMD.
They were both mentioned in Thomas J Briggs (1928) death in newspaper as his step-brother and step-sister......

Here is the newspaper cutting:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/122745124 Gundagai Times 14 December 1928. 
..... A step-brother is Mr. G. H. Brown, of Burra ; and a step sister, Miss Katie Brown, of Muttama. ....

Found George  ;D  at NSW BDM online index for births:
George H BROWN, parents as Simon & Ann F, birth registered Goulburn district. Ref 8691/1865.  I drilled down and his dob is 17 March 1865.  ..... ummmm..... and that leads back to another online tree which I mentioned earlier here:


.... , the tree owner has not logged on for at least 3 months.  It has John SMITH 1790 - 1889 and his wife as Sarah HOCKLEY1807-1896, and their daughter Ann (Hannah) F SMITH as 1829-1900.  Ann marries to William Thomas BRIGGS, 1806-1858.  There's an image of their marriage.  Both made X marks.   Ann's next marriage is to George Henry C (Simon) Brown, 4 July 1864, Gunning, - two children, George Henry 17 March 1865, and Catherine 1869, both born Muttama.  That husband dies 23 June 1876.  Ann next marries Frederick Rice.   Ann's father is shown as marrying in NSW 1823 and they note it as BDM 3111/1823 V18233111 3B.  He lived a very long life,  1790 - 1889, his death noted as 8 June 1889, Burwood (NSW).  His wife, Sarah (nee Hockley) her death 27 July 1896 and both burials are noted as Enfield, Burwood municipality, NSW.
.....ADD .....  eliminating this couple John and Sarah SMITH [/b][/u]- St Thomas Cemetery, C of E, Enfield headstones been photographed https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2448410/st.-thomas-anglican-cemetery.   :)  No mention of Ann SMITH as a daughter for that couple.
 
See photo of headstone showing John and Sarah SMITH and her Hockley family members memorialised on same headstone.   
See https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14060431 smh 29 July 1896.  Funeral Announcement for Sarah Smith, widow of John Smith.

....

I have BROWN and SMITH on direct lines on my own rural NSW tree, and it did eventually get itself sorted out with some difficult research, and some wallpaper bdm scripts which I donated to several family history groups and a website or two.  It needed both NSW BDM official transcriptions and careful examination of family Bible entries in the 1800s for bdm events in the NSW Darling Back Blocks.  Several times I simply paused and went on with researching on a different line before returning to Smith or Brown.  :) 

JM


Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Thursday 16 September 21 04:47 BST (UK)
At last I can see the birth for George H Brown 1865.

 I see he and wife Mabel Herring had a son and two daughters. (Ancestry tree)
The youngest called Annie Frances Sophia ( probably doesn't mean a thing)

If I ordered a Birth cert for George is it likely to give me any information about Ann Smith/Briggs?

I also found a marriage for Simon Brown and Ann Frances Bryan in 1864.  Reg no 3451

Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 16 September 21 05:12 BST (UK)
Hi Sandie,
Yes the BMD findings you are seeing have been there all along.

This may be the death of Catherine BROWN at Cootamundra.
BROWN Catherine Hester
8900/1943
Father SIMON
Mother HANNAH
At COOTAMUNDRA

So you have a woman who starts out as Ann SMITH
Becomes Annie BRIGGS
Becomes Annie Frances BRYAN
Becomes Annie Frances BROWN
Becomes and dies as Hannah RICE

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Thursday 16 September 21 05:31 BST (UK)
Hi  there,

If you order an official transcription you will save dollars, and you will receive a family history document as a pdf file that has all the info already typed up, matching the certified watermarked document from NSW BDM.  Those official transcriptions are accepted by all family history groups, including peak state bodies.     Here is the NSW Resources Board live link. 
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/ and scroll to :
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0  There are many resources listed there, including this one for official transcription agents :  https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html

Wivenhoe already posted the info for that 1865 birth registration at reply # 57 and I had noted that 1864 marriage at reply # 56. 
What to expect on an 1864 NSW BDM birth registration:   Here are the headings from a NSW bdm birth cert registered in 1867, close enough  :) . 

Date and place of birth
Name and whether present or not
Sex
Father's name, occupation, age and birthplace
Date and place of Marriage - previous issue
Mother's name, maiden name, age and birthplace

Informant (JM notes this igives the name, relationship and address, usually it is one of the parents, but it can be an older sibling, a grandparent, other close relative, a neighbour, landlord, midwife, etc).
Witness (1)  (2)  (3)  (JM notes 1 is reserved for doctor,  2 is reserved for Midwife and 3 is for an assistant to either 1 or 2 - eg 3 is for the helper supporting the baby's mum).
Particulars of Registration - this is for the Deputy Registrar at the local office to complete - name, date, locality.
Name if added after registration of birth.

So if you order the 1865 birth you will learn about of the details the INFORMANT provided to the local deputy registrar.  The information was given orally. 


At last I can see the birth for George H Brown 1865.

 I see he and wife Mabel Herring had a son and two daughters. (Ancestry tree)
The youngest called Annie Frances Sophia ( probably doesn't mean a thing)

If I ordered a Birth cert for George is it likely to give me any information about Ann Smith/Briggs?

I also found a marriage for Simon Brown and Ann Frances Bryan in 1864.  Reg no 3451

Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Thursday 16 September 21 05:54 BST (UK)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144129351 Coota Herald, 16 April 1943.   

Here is an example of rural NSW etiquette rules that I experienced in my own childhood. 
 :) Any older woman was always known "Mrs" even if she had never married, never had a live in male companion and never had children.  You knew these gentlewomen as Mrs (then their own Christian names) then their birth surname. 

 :) Married women were Mrs (then their husband's Christian names) then their husband's surname. 
(Thankfully) .... That practice faded out in the 1970s, but I still receive mail from some of my very ancient rellies addressed to me as Mrs. (my husband's initials of his given names) and his surname (which I use too) - birthday cards, Christmas cards, Return Thanks letters ....   :D

Here is the Probate announcement for Catherine Esther BROWN 
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144134075 20 April 1943 - Robert Henry Bruce BROWN as Executor.
 
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/122184943 Gundagai Indep. 26 October 1916

JM
 
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 16 September 21 06:38 BST (UK)
Hi Sandie,
I'm not sure whether you are in lockdown but you might feel like a longish a repetitive but interesting read.
It will possibly extend your learning about Ann Smith's family.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139458456

In 1905. It tells of a matter before the Coroner's Court concerning a youth named Frederick RICE.
Careful reading reveals, or hints at, the relationships existing between the BRIGGs and this  youth.

He is stated to be about 16 years, illegitimate and in the care of John (Jack) BRIGGS and accused of arson. He knows who his mother is but not his father.

My thoughts on his birth

BROWN Frederick P C
21742/1889
Mother CATHERINE H.
Father not listed
At GUNDAGAI

So Ann SMITH's daughter's child.

One of  interesting aspects of the article  is information about the BRIGGS generations.

Sue

ADDING
The last day of the hearing
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139450821
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 16 September 21 07:06 BST (UK)
FYI
A son to Catherine too ;D

BROWN  Robert B 
11625/1892
Mother Catherine H
At COOTAMUNDRA

The executor in her will.
Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 16 September 21 08:55 BST (UK)
His mother asserts here that Frederick Charles BROWN/RICE exhibited challenging behaviours and was not easy to bring up. 1902

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144040177

His death was registered in both names he used.

BROWN Frederick C
9288/1931
42 YRS MENTAL HOSP
ORANGE

RICE Frederick C
9288/1931
42 YRS MENTAL HOSP
ORANGE

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 16 September 21 09:11 BST (UK)

Ancestry NSW Police Gazette 6 Jan 1864
https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1942/images/31842_216734-00008?

..a man named John DAXTER who has been arrested by the Goulburn police charged with having violently assaulted a woman named Hannah BRIGGS......

(for TROVE...this name is probably DEXTER)

Charles Henry BRIGGS is your direct ancestor?


This is marriage for your Charles Henry BRIGGS?

NSW BDM marriage
4052/1876 BRIGGS  Charles Henry   marr.  KENNEWELL  Louisa Sarah   
@ Raymond Terrace

Why is Charles Henry BRIGGS in Raymond Terrace in 1876?.
What names do you see for witnesses?
What occupation for Charles Henry BRIGGS?
What denomination do you see for (church?) marriage?
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Thursday 16 September 21 10:21 BST (UK)
Sparrett, thankfully we have just gone into lockdown again (regional Vic) so I had plenty of time to read the very long Trove article about young Frederick Rice.
I knew of the name Waite and on looking in my tree I see quite a few connections.

One of William Briggs (1806-1858) and Ann Smith's  sons was...
Thomas J (1851-1928)  married Susannah Waite (1855-1934)

One of his (Thomas') brothers was William C (1847-1945) Known as the Butcher of Muttama. Not a murderer but a butcher.
He married Elizabeth Charlesworth and had 12 children and among them....

James (1884-1973) married Mary Waite.

Thomas Bruce (1888-1962) was 17 in 1905.

John Thomas (1878-1931)  married Selina Emily Waite.

Florence (1886-1977)

I found a tree on Ancestry for William Henry Waite (1857-1930)
He and wife Mary Billingsley had 10 children including...
William Edward (1885-1939)
John Henry (1890-1950)
Eliza Mary (1887-1975)  She married James Briggs (1884-1973)

I wonder if Ann Smith's son John (1860-) was the John who took care of Fred Rice.

William C and Thomas J were brothers of my Charles Henry.

Thanks also for extra info on Trove.  Poor Fred, he seemed a bit lost.

Wivenhoe, Charles H Briggs is my great-grandfather.
On his marriage doc he was married at Mr Davis home, Nelson Plains.
 Rev Robert Boag officiated. Rites of the Presbyterian Church.
Richard Holwell and Eliza Partridge were witnesses.

Charles move a few times. Was a farmer then for most of his life, a carpenter.
Thank you all for so much help, it's so amazing!
Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Thursday 16 September 21 23:22 BST (UK)
Sands Pastoral Directory 1915
GUNDAGAI district, Gundagai Pastures Protection Board.
George H BROWN,  Muttama, 9 horses, 10 cattle, 1690 sheep, 1081 acres.
W WAITE, Muttama, 14 horses, 17 cattle, 50 sheep, 600 acres.

NSW Electoral Roll 1902 HUME
polling at Muttama:
Charles Henry BRIGGS, of Muttama, labourer,
Elizabeth BRIGGS, of Muttama, domestic duties
Emily BRIGGS, of Muttama, domestic duties
John BRIGGS, of Muttama Creek, labourer
Susan BRIGGS, of Muttama, domestic duties
Thomas BRIGGS, of Muttama, labourer,
Thomas BRIGGS, junior, of Muttama, labourer
William BRIGGS, of Muttama Creek, farmer
William BRIGGS, junior, of Muttama, labourer
Samuel BROWN, of Muttama, labourer
Emily WAITE, of Muttama domestic duties
Sarah WAITE, of Muttama, domestic duties

Same roll, but polling at Gundagai
Frederick RICE, of Burra Burra, ------------ (JM notes that line usually indicating a retired person)


NSW Electoral Roll 1902 NORTH SYDNEY
Polling at Wurru Birri 
Charles Henry BRIGGS, 149 Falcon Street, carpenter.
William BRIGGS, 27 Lower Bayview Street, labourer.

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Thursday 16 September 21 23:57 BST (UK)
His mother asserts here that Frederick Charles BROWN/RICE exhibited challenging behaviours and was not easy to bring up. 1902

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144040177

His death was registered in both names he used.

BROWN Frederick C
9288/1931
42 YRS MENTAL HOSP
ORANGE

RICE Frederick C
9288/1931
42 YRS MENTAL HOSP
ORANGE

Sue

Well,  ummm..... 9288/1931 is indexed not twice, not thrice, but FOUR times ! .... those ancient rellies have been on the phone with some info, and I have been snipping an image, see attached.

 :) Frederick Charles, son of Catherine, died at Bloomfield Hospital, Orange.  Oral local history shared:  In 1931 some sections were still under construction, building started mid 1920s.

NSW BDM  surnames indexed for Frederick:
BROWN, O'BRIEN, OBRIEN, RICE. 

My ancient ones suggest O'Brien could be reflecting Ann SMITH's second married surname BRYAN.

Here's the snip   

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 17 September 21 00:42 BST (UK)


I think that in the area...Cootamundra...Goulburn...Gundagai....Muttama...there are BROWNs  and O'BRIENSs.

Where these names are relevant to the BRIGGS family I suspect that they are used/transcribed such as to be interchangeable, reflecting the literacy of the informants and recorders.

And there are BRYANTs in Muttama.






Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Friday 17 September 21 00:50 BST (UK)
Many surnames found on cemetery records.... here's Muttama Cemetery

https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2597675/muttama-cemetery

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Friday 17 September 21 03:00 BST (UK)
background https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758670.0

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15101309 smh 9 August 1909  Charles & Louisa's youngest son.

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Friday 17 September 21 03:50 BST (UK)
Good finding from the rellies about the younger Fred. ;D

I can see why he may have used the surname Rice, his grandmother's surname.
 
 Catherine (BROWN) was only about 7 years when her father Simon BROWN died and, as her mother quickly married RICE, she possibly adopted his surname at the time. Catherine was about 20 when young Fred was born so it is not surprising he was known as Fred RICE.

However, I am truly stumped as to why the surname BRIEN/BRYAN/O'BRIEN became an alternative for young Fred.

I have seen no evidence of Annie (nee SMITH) in a relationship with a man of that name, the only occurrence being her surname at marriage to Simon BROWN.

Has anyone located anything?

Sue


Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Friday 17 September 21 04:01 BST (UK)
I wonder if Bryan/Brien is a mis-read for Brown?  Compulsory secular education did not come to NSW until the 1870s, and then it took 'for ever' to reach into the rural communities.   Many 'central schools' were half-day ones.   Literacy and penmanship go hand in hand, so without the opportunity and encouragement to practice, ....

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 17 September 21 05:12 BST (UK)


I think that BRIEN / O'BRIEN / BRYAN are variations of the one name when found anywhere.

Where they appear in connection with the BRIGGS family, NSW, second half of 19th century,  I think they are also variations of BROWN.

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Friday 17 September 21 07:08 BST (UK)
Well, I suppose I am splitting hairs here but to me it is not likely that BRYAN is  a misnomer for BROWN when at her marriage she was marrying Simon BROWN.

It was not Mrs BROWN widow marrying  Mr BROWN widower.

If she was Mrs BRIGGS marrying Mr BROWN, I find it hard to accept BRIGGS  and BRYAN can be confused orally, aurally or in print as in the newspaper announcement.

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Friday 17 September 21 07:33 BST (UK)
 :) ;D .... yes  Sue, very true.  "ig" could be "y" but "gs" is less likely to be "an".

And  ;D the rellies  ;D have even  looked for the widow, Mrs BRIGGS with a  possible marriage to  a Mr. RYAN ....   but so far, "nothing to report".   

JM.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Friday 17 September 21 08:10 BST (UK)
Did we ever find the birth index for son John (BRIGGS) born after the death of William BRIGGS in 1858? At the asylum ages 5 ish years in 1865?

A straw to clutch at---- ;D

BRIAN John J
7178/1860
Father JOHN
Mother ANN
At GOULBURN


Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 17 September 21 08:12 BST (UK)


My comment -
"Where they appear in connection with the BRIGGS family, NSW" 

I am not limiting this to BDM records...the one you cite, or any others.

I am suggesting that when using Trove, WW1 records, Electoral roll, Police Gazette etc....that you consider the need to be flexible with spelling, and include BRIEN etc as a possible variation/ typo error/ transcription error .......for BROWN.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Friday 17 September 21 08:25 BST (UK)


My comment -
"Where they appear in connection with the BRIGGS family, NSW" 

I am not limiting this to BDM records...the one you cite, or any others.

I am suggesting that when using Trove, WW1 records, Electoral roll, Police Gazette etc....that you consider the need to be flexible with spelling, and include BRIEN etc as a possible variation/ typo error/ transcription error .......for BROWN.

Yes perfectly true.

There was no death notice or other tribute for Hannah   RICE  when she died  in 1900.

I wonder if there was some level of confusion among family members about the various relationships too. ;D

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 17 September 21 09:07 BST (UK)

The first newspaper attempt by Charles BRIGGS to contact brother John happens 6 Nov 1880 in a regional newspaper.

One month later, 11 Dec 1880, the notice is now in a newspaper of wider circulation.

Then no other notice.

You might think that Charles BRIGGS interest to contact his brother John  would not be limited to these two efforts.

I suspect that the second notice produced a response. If dead, you might expect to see a death on the NSW index 1869 - 1880 for John BRIGGS.

If John is alive ......a marriage and/or a death.

You might extend the search to QLD, if John is last known to be north of Sydney.

For all that he is identified, by others, as BRIGGS......he might well know who his father is, and use that family name, knowledge that he acquires later in life.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Friday 17 September 21 10:05 BST (UK)
Thank you everyone for all the wonderful information and help so far.
To be honest, I was seriously thinking of giving the family tree up for good.

But now....... I have so many interesting items to sort through and put in the place where they belong. (Nothing else to do while in lockdown again for the duration)

You are all amazing!

Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Friday 17 September 21 23:49 BST (UK)
The transcription for Charles Henry Briggs and Louisa Kennewell has arrived and a complete waste of money!

No birthplace listed.
No age.
No parents.

For Louisa...
No birthplace.
No age.
No parents.

No occupation for either fathers.


Two witnesses named and the minister who conducted the service.

There isn't anything much on it to help at all.

I'm so frustrated because the document that I have is much fuller.  Where would that one come from?  It looks like it's been scanned from an actual book. You can see the fold in the pages.

Obviously transcriptions aren't reliable for the information you are looking for.

Sandie.



Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Saturday 18 September 21 00:49 BST (UK)
The transcription for Charles Henry Briggs and Louisa Kennewell has arrived and a complete waste of money!

No birthplace listed.
No age.
No parents.

For Louisa...
No birthplace.
No age.
No parents.

No occupation for either fathers.


Two witnesses named and the minister who conducted the service.

There isn't anything much on it to help at all.

I'm so frustrated because the document that I have is much fuller.  Where would that one come from?  It looks like it's been scanned from an actual book. You can see the fold in the pages.

Obviously transcriptions aren't reliable for the information you are looking for.

Sandie.





It is far better to have obtained an official transcription than to have spent even more $$$$ on the official NSW marriage certificate.  It too will be full of those elusive blanks.   While the document you do already hold has far more details,  you need to know the source of those details, and who put them on that document and if they accurately reflect what is on Rev Boag's register.  ADD***


https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0

I mentioned this possibility back at earlier in this thread.

ADD,  at reply #65 of that 'elusive blanks' thread, I mention the Presbyterian Archives
 
Presbyterians : Ferguson Memorial Library, 168 Chalmers St, SURRY HILLS  ....  you may need to phone them to check if they have Rev Robert BOAG's registers for Raymond Terrace, 1876.

ADD***   (until you know what Rev Boag recorded) .... basically ... umm...  you have not joined the dots back to the brickmaker, William BRIGGS who died 25 December 1858, on your Briggs line, and similar difficulties if you also want to go back on your Kennewell line. 

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Saturday 18 September 21 00:58 BST (UK)
They were married at a house. The service was conducted by a minister of the Presbyterian church.
Should I enquire at the church or a local historical society. Or both!
How can I find out who supplied the information on the copied entry?

Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Saturday 18 September 21 01:22 BST (UK)
They were married at a house. The service was conducted by a minister of the Presbyterian church.
Should I enquire at the church or a local historical society. Or both!
How can I find out who supplied the information on the copied entry?

Sandie.

I have just added to my reply.

You enquire with Presbyterians asking for the current location of Rev's register if you cannot find its location via Google.  Family history groups anywhere, not just the local one to Raymond Terrace, can have sourced transcriptions.      Many marriage ceremonies were conducted in private homes.   The 1878 Electoral Roll for that district has two chaps named Steven DAVIS at Nelson's Plains.  One was a settler, the other was qualified to vote as a freeholder.  There may well be others surnamed DAVIS in that district.  You could also search out by the witness names.

It could well be that the document with those full details accurately reflects Rev Boag's register, so perhaps you could contact the person who supplied it to you and ask them where they sourced that document and make your own judgement as to the veracity of the record.   

Many of the regional and rural registers were filmed by the LDS in the last decade or so.     You may need to make enquiries through that group too.  National Library of Australia is another possibility, so too the https://www.gsv.org.au/   Genealogy Society of Victoria in Melbourne and/or https://www.sag.org.au/ Society of Australian Genealogists, Sydney NSW


JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 18 September 21 10:02 BST (UK)
NSW BDM birth
21742/1889  BROWN Frederick P C  parents p / Catherine H @ Gundagai
11625/1892  BROWN Robert B         parents - / Catherine H    @  Cootamudra

What second and third given name do you see for Frederick?   

The Gundagai Independent and Pastoral, Agricultural and Mining Advocate
26 Oct 1916 p5   (Exemption Court WW1)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/122184943?

"...Robert Henry Bruce BROWN  a share-farmer from Muttawa.............I only want time to get my crop in...."

This would suggest that there is expectation that the men of the district will enlist, and Robert seems keen to do so. Using NAA WW1 I do not see an enlistment for Robert...born  Muttawa/Cootamundra/Gundagai/Goulburn etc.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 19 September 21 03:26 BST (UK)
Did we ever find the birth index for son John (BRIGGS) born after the death of William BRIGGS in 1858? At the asylum ages 5 ish years in 1865?

A straw to clutch at---- ;D

BRIAN John J
7178/1860
Father JOHN
Mother ANN
At GOULBURN


Sue

This could be the death of the  father John (or totally irrelevant ;))

BRIAN John R
4171/1873
68 Years
Died at Monks Creek
reg at GOULBURN
 
Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Sunday 19 September 21 06:18 BST (UK)
Freehold - so a landowner...  I speculate - perhaps a grazier - sheep for wool  :D  :D . 

NSW ER 1870 THE ARGYLE
John BRIAN, freehold, Monk's Gully, Laggan. 

JM

https://sites.rootsweb.com/~hcastle/grevilles/grevilles.html    I have not looked in Grevilles 1872,  but I have checked Grevilles 1875 - NO John Brian at Laggan. 

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Tuesday 21 September 21 05:53 BST (UK)
I found a transcription of a marriage for....
Hannah Briggs, widow. Age 28.
Born in Penrith.
Resides in Towrang.
Father John W Smith, pensioned soldier.
Mother  Sarah Brown.

Groom....
John Bryant,  batchelor. Age 22.
Born in Sydney.
Resides in Goulburn.
Brickmaker.
Father  John Bryant.
mother  Mary ?
Witnesses   Ellen Smith and J.W.Smith.
Minister   W. Chatfield.





Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Tuesday 21 September 21 05:56 BST (UK)
Forgot the date of Hannah Briggs and John Bryant marriage

1 Dec 1859.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Tuesday 21 September 21 09:29 BST (UK)
I found a transcription of a marriage for....
Hannah Briggs, widow. Age 28.
Born in Penrith.
Resides in Towrang.
Father John W Smith, pensioned soldier.
Mother  Sarah Brown.

Groom....
John Bryant,  batchelor. Age 22.
Born in Sydney.
Resides in Goulburn.
Brickmaker.
Father  John Bryant.
mother  Mary ?
Witnesses   Ellen Smith and J.W.Smith.
Minister   W. Chatfield.
Forgot the date of Hannah Briggs and John Bryant marriage

1 Dec 1859.


Does the document you hold note the denomination for the clergy ?   

Does it explain how the transcriber obtained the information for ages and places of birth of bride and groom,  and the names of their parents, occupation, etc. .

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Tuesday 21 September 21 10:09 BST (UK)
Place of marriage.....  Office of the District Registrar, Goulburn.
Religion.... Act of Council.

Minister  Wm Chatfield.

No details about the source of names, dates etc.

I didn't think transcriptions noted where the information came from. I thought they just transcribed what was on the document.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: judb on Tuesday 21 September 21 11:21 BST (UK)
Trove has quite a few mentions of W Chatfield in Goulburn around 1855-60.  I won't enumerate them but the mentions include:
22 December 1859 - Alderman Chatfield present at a Goulburn Municipal Council meeting
November 1859 - W Chatfield as a director, the local Building Society

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/118248634 - 8 October 1859
MARRIED
By- W. Chatfield, Esq., district registrar, on 6th inst., JANE EVANS, lately from London, to JAMES SWAIN, widower, of Goulburn.

So it seems Chatfield is a civil alderman and registrar rather than being in Holy Orders.

Judith
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Tuesday 21 September 21 11:29 BST (UK)
Official transcriptions record what is on the official record.   NSW BDM official records for marriages in that era IF they have been reconciled note that action in the margin, as I described earlier in this thread and attached a snip.   
Official transcribers as part of their responsibilities note that margin endorsement on their transcription.   

I find it hard to understand how any clergyman had any authoriity to conduct a civil marriage ceremony in the Registrars office in 1859.   

In NSW in that era the clergy conducted marriage ceremonies in accordance with the rites of the denomination that ordained them, and which naturally reflected the form of the 1855 NSW marriage Acts.  The ceremony was in two concurrent parts, mostly religious. 

When it came the moment for signing,  the church registers included all the details, and the civil register was basically just a summary, sometimes scant family history noted, often no ages, no birth places, no parents details etc.  That summary info often  was all that the NSW BDM had on the marriages 1856-1895  until the  NDWBDM commenced to reconcile their own records with the church records.   

From 1856,  the statute law allowed civil ceremonies (ceremonies without a religious form) to be conducted by Civil  officers appointed by the Registrar General. 

Thanks Judith for chasing W Chatfield.  On a quick phone hook up with my retired rellies, no sighting by that name as a Minister of Religion.  Likely a Registry Office marriage.  :)


JM.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Tuesday 21 September 21 11:44 BST (UK)
A Sydney baptism    :D

Ann, a daughter of John and Sarah SMITH, residing at Hyde Park, Sydney.  He is recorded as a Private in the Royal Veteran Corps by Rev Richard Hill, St James C of E, Sydney.  That Ann's date of birth is 13 March 1830 and the date of her baptism is 9 May 1830.

   
JM

This chap is a pensioner soldier.   :) 

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Tuesday 21 September 21 12:04 BST (UK)
Majm, I wasn't inferring that W Chatfield was a minister of religion. Just posting the words written on the transcription.
On the left side under Place of Marriage and Religion is the word  Minister.  On the right are the relevant details for each question.
There is nothing else on the transcription.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 21 September 21 12:24 BST (UK)
Did we ever find the birth index for son John (BRIGGS) born after the death of William BRIGGS in 1858? At the asylum ages 5 ish years in 1865?

A straw to clutch at---- ;D

BRIAN John J
7178/1860
Father JOHN
Mother ANN
At GOULBURN


Sue

MMmmm..

I think I would be giving this due consideration as a birth for John ( later known as  BRIGGS)
I cannot yet see a death for BRYANT in the right time frame, though Ann/Hannah is destitute and unable to care for her children by 1863.

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Tuesday 21 September 21 12:41 BST (UK)
Agree Sue,  that birth index now fits, and add, and she may have moved to Sydney if deserted, looking for her Mr Bryant...  :-\ 

The ancient rellies are "on the case"  :D  and chucklng over the construct of a District Registrar being recorded as a Minister ... apparently someone at the Reg Gens Office in Sydney in 1860 should have struck through the word 'Minister'  ...  You see, those ancient rellies  include retired C of E clergy ie licenced to conduct marriages  and retired NSW senior officers i.e. licenced to conduct marriages.

 ;D ;D ;D

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 22 September 21 03:32 BST (UK)
 :D  :D

A baptism – could this be an older brother for Ann?  Notice the occupation for baby’s dad…


John William, son of John SMITH a Private in the Royal Veteran Corps, and his wife Sarah SMITH, abode : Castlereagh St (Sydney), John William born 1 March 1828, baptised 30 March 1828 by Rev Richard HILL,  St James C of E, Sydney.   

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCT-4ZR

Australian Joint Copy Project has digitised the paylists for The Royal Veteran Corps, free to search via Trove.  Reel 3917 could be helpful. 



JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Wednesday 22 September 21 04:15 BST (UK)
I have also found a possible brother for John William.
William Charles  1833-1902.
Mother Sarah.
Father John,  farmer.
Weren't men from the Veteran's Corps granted land at retirement?
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 22 September 21 04:20 BST (UK)
Bad news for the group of brickmakers at Towrang as floods in Feb 1860 come through.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/103400968

Perhaps enough to dishearten a 22 year old husband.(Brickmaker of Towrang)

Sue

PS ADDING a question.
Was there not an institution of some sort for the destitute or needy closer to Goulburn than Sydney?

ADDING again.
Unless maybe John and Ann BRYANT both went together to Sydney, where John had been born< and that is where he died??

BRYANT John
604/1861
Father WIilliam
Mother Elizabeth
SYDNEY
 
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Wednesday 22 September 21 04:25 BST (UK)
Thanks Sparrett, another interesting item.

Majm, I had a quick look on Trove for the paylists but can't see where to find it. Could you give me a more detailed place to search please?
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 22 September 21 04:36 BST (UK)
Hi sandie,
I put this at the foot of my last reply as an afterthought.

Unless maybe John and Ann BRYANT both went together to Sydney, where John had been born< and that is where he died??

BRYANT John
604/1861
Father WIilliam
Mother Elizabeth
SYDNEY
   
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 22 September 21 04:47 BST (UK)
Hi sandie,
I put this at the foot of my last reply as an afterthought.

Unless maybe John and Ann BRYANT both went together to Sydney, where John had been born< and that is where he died??

BRYANT John
604/1861
Father WIilliam
Mother Elizabeth
SYDNEY
 

Maybe not. :(

Some additional information on Ancestry has the above man with a birthdate of 1834.
Lived at Crown St. Labourer aged 27. Buried Camperdown
Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 22 September 21 05:02 BST (UK)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/ then select click on ALL CATEGORIES and from there, click on Diaries,Letters and Archives. (so you are not looking at Newspapers & Gazettes, but at a different section of trove).

You are seeking the digitised image of reel 3917 of the Australian Joint Copy Project  :) https://www.nla.gov.au/using-library/research-tools-and-resources/australian-joint-copying-project

So in a general sense, you are looking for the Musters and Pay Lists  https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-728688653  ... there are several hundred reels in that set.  Those reels of film have now been digitised.

You need quiet time, and carefully read the various sets of tables of contents.

https://www.bda-online.org.au/files/MR16_Military.pdf 

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 22 September 21 05:11 BST (UK)
:D
You may have many hurdles to sort back further than John SMITH, soldier,  but from a quick armchair sweep of indexes I can see at least one ‘candidate’ may be:
 :) Private John SMITH, 3rd Regiment of Foot, 4th & 5th Company, arrived per the Guildford, NSW 25 December 1822. 
 :) Was serving at Fort Dundas, Melville Island departing Sydney on the Countess of Hardcourt 24 August 1824, returning as part of a detachment to NSW some time between 1 November 1824 and 30 April 1825, sick. and was stationed on the sub-continent, at Calcutta from January 1827 to October 1827. 
 :) :) :) See the NSW Col Sec Papers Index re this soldier, and also under the heading ‘Melville Island’.    https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/colonial-secretarys-papers 

A tad further armchair looking :
 :) It seems that a chap named John SMITH originally served in The Buffs, after enlisting at Cork in Ireland for 14 years. 
 :) When the Buffs tour of duty in NSW was concluding, he transferred to the 39th Regiment, into Company 9 and he took his discharge with gratuity in Sydney 30 June 1832.  May I suggest:
Paylists etc should be available via the AJCP see   https://www.nla.gov.au/using-library/research-tools-and-resources/australian-joint-copying-project   Paylists can be useful in determining the marital status and number of children of the soldier based on the pay rate changes etc.  https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=829521.0

Also Biographical Database of Australia is a not for profit ongoing indexing project; there is a nominal annual subscription of $38, but you can look at the indexes without any subscription expenses.    https://www.bda-online.org.au/   


I have not looked for Mrs Sarah SMITH (wife of John) or for Ann SMITH born circa 1829, Penrith NSW, but it seems likely to me that Ann would not have been the eldest child of Sarah and John SMITH.  Perhaps they will be listed as a family in the 1828 NSW Census?  https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=810812.0

As yet, I cannot see any connection between this Ann who married Frederick RICE and the lass who entered the Benevolent Society’s facilities in 1863. 
 .....
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 22 September 21 05:29 BST (UK)
Asylums outside of Sydney ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenmore_Asylum  built in   1879. ADD Land acquired in 1879.

Re the Veterans
YES, if they took their discharge in NSW or VDL rather than returning to Britain to take it there, then they were eligible for Land Grants in NSW or VDL.   

It is explained in the reliable book that is NOT here with me, but it is safe in the bookcase in our home.   I have mentioned this book on other threads at RChat over the years, for example:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=4653362;topic=616581.0;last_msg=4654528


JM.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 22 September 21 05:46 BST (UK)
Sydney Sands Directories
1858-9
John William SMITH, painter, South Head Road, Paddington.

JM


Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Wednesday 22 September 21 05:52 BST (UK)
Thank you once again for fantastic help and links.
I've just received the birth transcription for George Henry Brown 17 Mar 1865. Son of Ann Smith and Simon Brown.
Ann is listed as Ann Frances late Briggs formerly Smith.  Age 33.
Informant.... Ann Frances (her mark) Brown, mother, Bland.
 What does the word Bland mean?

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 22 September 21 06:05 BST (UK)
Hi
It is a bit hard to know exactly what you are looking at unless you type it up properly including the headings of each column.

But I suspect the word might be Blank.

The transcriber is informing you that there is no text entered in the space.

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Wednesday 22 September 21 06:27 BST (UK)
Registration number   08691
Date of Birth              17 Mar 1865
Birth Place                 Verner St, Goulburn
Name                        George Henry
Sex                           Male
Father                       Simon Brown
Occupation                    Labourer
Father's Age                  54
Father's Birthplace         Suffolk
Date of Marriage            4 Jul 1864
Place                            Gunning
Previous Issue               Not Listed
Mother Maiden Name     Ann Frances Late Briggs Formerly Smith
Mother's Age                 33
Mother's Birthplace        Penrith, N.S.W.
Informant                      Ann Frances (her x mark) Brown, Mother, Bland
Accoucheur                    R.Waugh
Nurse and/or Witness     Mrs Makin
Registered                     3 Apr 1865,  Goulburn
Nothing written in "Comments"

That's it exactly.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 22 September 21 06:56 BST (UK)
I think the column heading for informant has 3 requests within in it.

Signature-  filled

Description-filled

Residence-


The "blank" refers to   residence which is not given.

JM will have it more accurately ;D

OR it refers to the shire of Bland in NSW

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 22 September 21 07:20 BST (UK)
Yes,  the informant was recorded as Ann Frances BROWN, (she signed with her X mark) and she stated she was the baby's MOTHER and that her usual address was BLAND.   

Bland (the locality) still exists, and it is about 20 miles south of Cragabal. 
(I reckon thats about 32 kms)   
Cragabal is west of Grenfell.
   
Bland is about 30 miles east of West Wyalong.  (I reckon thats about 50 kms) 

 ;D  ;D  ;D

JM 

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 22 September 21 07:29 BST (UK)
Seems a long way from where the child was born.
Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 22 September 21 07:42 BST (UK)
Yes, exactly so Sue,  especially when you consider the terrain and mode of transport available in that era ... and the possibility of bushrangers ...  The Weddin Mountains were Ben Hall hide-outs.   He was killed by NSW police in May 1865.   

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 22 September 21 07:51 BST (UK)
Baby born in Goulburn, and birth registered in Goulburn.   Mother's usual address was Bland.  Quite possibly mother was residing in Goulburn simply because to travel to Bland would have required travelling via the Mail Coach.  And the Mail coach was often a target for Bushrangers.   Goulburn was a larger township, not focused on gold mining, but on agricultural pursuits. Whereas up around Grenfell and Forbes there were several gold rushes.   In the 1860s the gold from the western goldfields was transferred to Sydney via the Gold Escort coaches, which went via Bathurst and not via Goulburn.   :D  Goulburn was a safer haven for families not associated with gold ventures. 

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 22 September 21 23:35 BST (UK)
Re the John SMITH chap, pensioned soldier - as husband of Sarah, and father of Ann and John William SMITH ... and therefore the possible maternal grandfather of Charles Henry BRIGGS of the topic heading.   :D  :D  :D

Here is live link to the National Library of Australia's digitised image of the AJCP reel 3917 :  https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/235295680

 
New South Wales Royal Veterans, June 1826 to June 1832, (File 11230. AJCP Reel No: 3917), (from Records of the War Office (as filmed by the AJCP)) 


Australian Joint Copying Project WO
Guide to the Records of the War Office (as filmed by the AJCP)
Records of other administrative departments of the War Office (Returns) (Fonds WO) / Muster Books and Pay Lists. General (Series WO 12) / Veterans (Subseries (Piece 11230))

....................

May well be worthwhile looking through the following reels too...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/235295839   
New South Wales Veteran Co., 1826 to 1830, (File 2243. AJCP Reel No: 1303),

https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/235295740?  NSW Corps Registers New South Wales, 1828, (File 2312. AJCP Reel No: 914), (from Records of the War Office (as filmed by the AJCP))

https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/235295737?s NSW Corps 1825  file 309. AJCP Reel  914



JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Thursday 23 September 21 02:43 BST (UK)
Some time ago I was given a copy of a John Smith discharge papers from the army. It's difficult to read but says he served in the army for 24 years and 245 days.
 
It looks like 30th Reg of Foot (11 yrs,30 days) and 60th Reg of Foot (1 yr,92 days) as well as somewhere else for 5 years and what looks like Royal N.S.W.... 3 yrs, 153 days.
It's dated 22 Aug 1829.
There's another page that I can't read and a copy of a long list of names. it could be length of service or pay, I can't figure it out yet.
I also have a copy of soldiers on board ship Orpheus in 1826 with the name John Smith.

Am I correct in thinking that the first Veteran's Corps was formed in England and disbanded here in the colony in the 1820's and a second Veteran's Corps was formed later in the 1820's and the disbanded early 1830's.




Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Thursday 23 September 21 03:32 BST (UK)
Some time ago I was given a copy of a John Smith discharge papers from the army. It's difficult to read but says he served in the army for 24 years and 245 days.
 
It looks like 30th Reg of Foot (11 yrs,30 days) and 60th Reg of Foot (1 yr,92 days) as well as somewhere else for 5 years and what looks like Royal N.S.W.... 3 yrs, 153 days.
It's dated 22 Aug 1829.
There's another page that I can't read and a copy of a long list of names. it could be length of service or pay, I can' figure it out yet.
I also have a copy of soldiers on board ship Orpheus in 1826 with the name John Smith.

Am I correct in thinking that the first Veteran's Corps was formed in England and disbanded here in the colony in the 1820's and a second Veteran's Corps was formed later in the 1820's and the disbanded early 1830's.


Can you please consider scanning those pages and then taking a snip of the section giving you the  Royal N.S.W. Veteran Corp 3 years 153 days, and the date 22 August 1829.

Mr Google will likely help you with info on the NSW Veterans Corps.    The BDA website is also very helpful and even without expecting you to sign in, you can easily read about their sources. 
https://www.bda-online.org.au/sources/
Scrolling through to their sources to their heading Military can help you too and then reading through the headings there, and clicking on their option "view"against those headings can be great too ...  for example:
https://www.bda-online.org.au/files/MR11_Military.pdf
https://www.bda-online.org.au/files/MR16_Military.pdf
Their annual subscription is $38.00

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Thursday 23 September 21 03:56 BST (UK)
The following will likely be useful as well.   But please remember, I am not at my home, so I cannot access my bookcases etc.

Journal of the Royal Australian Historical Society, Vol. 95, No. 2, Nov 2009: 158-175  It is cited as a source for a Memorial Lecture on  Military settlers: the men of the Royal veteran Companies and Royal Staff Corps 1825.   

It is likely there are costs involved in gaining access to the lecture info.    However, it may also be possible that the NLA has the journals in their catalogue and perhaps can send you a photocopy or at least let you have a quick paraphrase/summary of the lecture.  Perhaps you could email the nla and see if they can help you further, the building in Canberra is likely closed, but the library staff are likely working from home and responding to email enquiries.  Perhaps the State Library of Victoria can also help... likely staff are also working from home ...  ;) due to Melbourne lockdowns...


https://www.rahs.org.au/discover-new-south-wales-history/publications/

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Thursday 23 September 21 04:29 BST (UK)
I've taken two snips and tried to post them but apparently it's too large. I have no idea exactly how to do this anyway.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 23 September 21 05:55 BST (UK)
Hi sandie
Maybe I can help with the snip and post thing.

I am not sure if you have a paper document or a scanned image already saved in your computer.

But...if you need to scan it  for us to look at, the app in your iphone is an option if you don't have a scanner. It is part of the 'notes' app. Resulting quality is not brilliant, but worth a try.

So assuming you have scanned and saved the document, use the snipping tool in your computer. Part of Windows.

Section out the bit and save as jpg. (or other accepted)

In the R'chat reply window see Attachments and other options.
Browse to find it in you files and insert it.

 You can do the doc in sections if you want that way.

On another aspect, can you tell me was William Ann's husband a literate man?

Sue
 
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Thursday 23 September 21 06:02 BST (UK)
I have paper doc's and scanned to computer. "Snipped" what I wanted and tried again to post but it keeps telling me it's too large.
After I've chosen the snip that I want, how do I get it into the post?

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 23 September 21 06:12 BST (UK)
I will look for the section in R'chat help board and see if there is an answer for "image file too big"

In the R'chat reply window see 'Attachments and other options.' just under the typing window on the left
Select 'Browse' to find it in you files and click insert it when it opens in your files.

You won't see it in the typing window, but when you actually 'post' it will be there on the thread.

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 23 September 21 06:22 BST (UK)
There might be some help in here.

http://www.shrinkpictures.com/


https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=307682.0

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=307682.0

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Friday 24 September 21 09:15 BST (UK)
Hi, Did you have this picture of Thomas, the son of Ann/Hannah nee Smith ?

From his Bathurst prison record  :(

There are other interesting bits about him available too.
Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Friday 24 September 21 09:56 BST (UK)
I have seen that photo of Thomas but wasn't sure if it's "my" family. Will look into it further.
Thanks for posting.
Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Friday 24 September 21 12:21 BST (UK)
Hi,
There is no doubt he is the man in your family. The digitised record makes it clear and there are supporting news items which match his crimes on the record including the assault upon the accused assailant of his wife Susan in 1882.

He even used the alias Brown!

If you would like me to type up the record I can do that tomorrow.

Sue 
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Friday 24 September 21 12:26 BST (UK)
Thanks Sparrett, that would be lovely. I'll look forward to reading about him.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Friday 24 September 21 12:27 BST (UK)
News item about the assault committed by Thomas Briggs in 1882 which is referenced in the gaol oc below
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143385687?searchTerm=%22thomas%20briggs%20assault%22~20



Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 25 September 21 02:48 BST (UK)
Hi
Have sent Personal message to you re the gaol record;  ;D

The assault on Susan
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143385686


This is the link to Thomas BRIGG's revenge attack for the assault
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143385685


Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Saturday 25 September 21 03:28 BST (UK)
Thanks Sparrett, great to see the Trove entries but I don't know how to open the piece in your PM. I'll see if I can figure it out.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Saturday 25 September 21 06:37 BST (UK)
Some time ago I was given a copy of a John Smith discharge papers from the army. It's difficult to read but says he served in the army for 24 years and 245 days.
 
It looks like 30th Reg of Foot (11 yrs,30 days) and 60th Reg of Foot (1 yr,92 days) as well as somewhere else for 5 years and what looks like Royal N.S.W.... 3 yrs, 153 days.
It's dated 22 Aug 1829.
There's another page that I can't read and a copy of a long list of names. it could be length of service or pay, I can't figure it out yet.
I also have a copy of soldiers on board ship Orpheus in 1826 with the name John Smith.

Am I correct in thinking that the first Veteran's Corps was formed in England and disbanded here in the colony in the 1820's and a second Veteran's Corps was formed later in the 1820's and the disbanded early 1830's.

I have been strolling through that reel 3917, and I can find a Private there by name of John SMITH.  Occasionally the clerk has it as John SMYTH, but mostly it is SMITH.   He took his discharge 24 August 1829, same date as many others.  I will take some snips when I am at a proper puter and post.  I will see where that Private John SMITH was posted at that time etc.

ADD,  I have checked, there may be a copyright issue.  I won't post any snips.  Sorry.  I will make a list of some live links to take you to the relevant images. 

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Saturday 25 September 21 10:32 BST (UK)
Thanks Majm, I've looked through reel 3917 a few times and found John Smith. The date of discharge agrees with the document I have here.
I also have a copy of the relevant information about the voyage of the Orpheus in 1826. It names the officers, assistant surgeon and privates of the New South Wales veteran's Corps.
I could see those names in the pay lists on reel 3917.
 
Interesting that John's address was Hyde Park in 1830 when Ann was born.
A possible son John William born 1 Mar 1828 is at Castlereagh St.
Thank you for all the links, I had no idea that even existed.

Sparrett, thanks also for the links and suggestions.
I found a long list of entries of criminal proceedings about Thomas Briggs.
For the moment I have ignored the entries dated before 1882 as the paper with the photo mentions two previous convictions, 1887 and 1882. There were one or two where there was a not guilty verdict and of course, several entries after 1890.
He seems to have made a career of it!
Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 29 September 21 00:11 BST (UK)
Hi Sandie,
I am thinking you are resting your searches at this point and so I will let my notes go.

Too clogging for the computer to keep everything. ;D

However before that, I will pass on these last small random bits in case of interest to you.

SECOND DAUGHTER.  Is Betsey still living 1871. Unmarried?  Letter for one of the name in Sydney
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224332531/12904757

When Alice S L (nee BRIGGS) died, they didn’t really know her parents, names.  Lost connection.
There was a marriage  announcement in 1878 newspaper as daughter of ‘the late Wm Briggs of Goulburn’

Death
ROBSON ALICE Sophia Lee
18407/1942
Father HENRY
Mother NOT KNOWN
At HORNSBY

There was a Mrs BRIGGS in Goulburn in March 1860.  Or at least  she had a an address there at that time
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230041306?searchTerm=%22mrs%20briggs%20goulburn%22~18

This seems to be a letter from William BRIGGS to his wife in 1852. Doing well at the Ovens diggings March 1852
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/101731198?searchTerm=%22william%20briggs%22

Briggs returned safely to Goulburn but told of murder and theft along the way of his journey Dec 1852
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12942410?searchTerm=%22william%20briggs%22

An interesting family story!

Sue
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Wednesday 29 September 21 00:35 BST (UK)
Thank you Sparrett for all your help. I've been very busy adding information to my tree and trying to confirm exactly which William Briggs is the correct one.
I believe he is the convict who came to the colony in 1826 on the ship England.
I've just found a couple of times he may have been in gaol here as well.
I would love to find out where he was placed after he arrived in 1826 so I can piece together his movements around N.S.W.
He was 42 when married to Ann Smith. it seems a bit older than usual so it would be great to find out what he was doing before that.
There are a few trees online that have him married to a Mary Curtis earlier than 1848 but he said he was a bachelor in 1848 marriage.

I had already found some of the Trove articles but the one about Betsy in 1871 is interesting. She's a mystery. Some tree's have her married to Mr Archibald.

I wonder if Alice, Charles and John had any contact with their mother after she left them at the Asylum.  She certainly stayed around the Goulburn area.
Such sad stories with some people.
Thank you once again,
Sandie.
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 29 September 21 01:26 BST (UK)
Just popping some info here, in case of .... 

I had decided he was not:   
William BRIGGS per the Speke (3) arriving Sydney 26 November 1826 died Parramatta 30 Sept 1862.  He had been tried at York 18 March  1826, highway robbery, born Lancs,

I am still undecided if he was:
William BRIGGS, settler, and husband of Eliza BRIGGS, of Sydney whose son, Albert Dowling, was born 19 June 1840, and baptised 30 August 1840, St James C of E, by Rev Robert ALLWOOD ... 

It is important to remember that the clergy wrote the information on their parish registers and that quite possibly the clergy decided ''bachelor" without even asking the express question... OR perhaps only asking 'do you already have a wife'...  if there was a prior marriage, if it was back in England, then it had effectively been terminated, hence a clergyman would describe a single male person without children requiring his support, as a bachelor. 

I am sure that on the day I married, NO ONE asked me to 'read everything on this entry, double check if it is correct' before you sign here...  I am sure I was simply instructed ... sign here and all the completed info was actually 'blocked' by the person's hand showing me where to sign ....  :)  :) 

There are many threads re the various laws often thought of as the 'seven year rule'...    Here's one    https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=699561.0

JM  :D :D  :D :D  :D
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: Sandiehawk on Wednesday 29 September 21 10:34 BST (UK)
Continuing on with William Briggs.
His death certificate states he was 53 when he died on 25 Dec 1858.
The burial entry says 52 years.
Born in London.  33 years in the colony. ( on death cert)
Death cert also says he married in 1842. Australia marriage Index says 1848.
I had presumed he was a convict but now not sure. If he had been in the colony for 33 years (approx.) then he would have arrived in Australia in either 1825 or 1826.
Is there a way of confirming whether he was a convict or free settler and if so, when and  what ship did he sail on?
Sandie.

Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Wednesday 29 September 21 11:00 BST (UK)
Passenger lists .... not the easiest to find for 1825 or 26 or 27 to NSW, and if arriving as a soldier .... or a supercargo or steerage.... likely you were not even named on any official document ... ... IF transported, you were well documented on convict indents.  Even if you came as a cabin passenger you may be Mr A. SURNAME,  but no native place, often only an initial for given name.... 

From around 1828, NSW government admin started to keep better details on passengers arriving, as more land was surveyed, and thus able to be settled ....

NSW 1828 census should have status GS for Government Servant still serving a sentence,  or FS if free by servitude .... or CF if came free (whether as garrison  or of own accord passenger) or BC if birn in the colony...

Trove newspapers will have names of ships arriving VDL and NSW ... 1828 census with have ships of arrival for all not born in colony  :)

From about 1818, ships transporting female convicts did not carry male convicts on same voyage, but all convict ships had garrison troops on board, you only learn name of sailor or garrison personnel IF they are found to have onboard relationship with female convict .... with or without consent of female, and only if it becomes public knowledge ... e.g. sailor jumps ship to stay with his lass....

JM
Title: Re: Charles henry briggs.
Post by: majm on Tuesday 05 October 21 05:42 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Here is a link to the journal of the Surgeon for the voyage of the England in 1826.

 https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-1597158592/view
 
Its reel 3195 from NSW State Archives.   That's likely the voyage that your William BRIGGS was transported on.   

ADD https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853818.0   someone else interested in William.   :)
 

JM