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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Essnell on Sunday 12 September 21 01:49 BST (UK)
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Hello all,
Right now I am not happy.. more likely confused.
In the last three days I have received from GRO two death records via PDF. Both arrived on time as expected and that is fine.
However neither contain what I expected to be on them namely "parents of the deceased".
One is totally useless for the purpose of identifying who the deceased related to. Nothing on it not even a brother or sister nor the person's marital status. The informant also is not a relative.
The second is at least somewhat better. Still no parents mentioned, not even a column for that info. I am just lucky with this one as the informant was the persons spouse and only that that information was already known, it also would be useless for identification. In this instance the informant name only has an initial and the last name. A. or R.....could be loads of names.
Now is what we are paying for here a shortened form of a Full Certified Posted Certificate or is it still what the Register shows or what. When did GRO change the format to leave out parents..
The PDF's are from 1940's and 1950's.
Incidentally both have been typed on a typewriter.
I need to know the status at GRO as there are more things to get.
Essnell :)
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https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/50164/family_history_research/1558/civil_registration_records/4
Information given on death certificates
In England and Wales, a death certificate holds the following information:
date and place of death – from the late nineteenth century an address may be given rather than the name of an institution (e.g. City Hospital will appear as 77 Dudley Road)
name of the deceased
sex, age and occupation of deceased and possibly their home address
the cause of death – if there was an inquest it may be possible to obtain a copy of the coroner’s report
the name and address of informant and possibly their relationship to the deceased
If the deceased was a child or a single woman, the name of the father is shown.
From 1969 a death certificate also includes the date and place of birth of the deceased, and the maiden name of a married woman.
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When did GRO change the format to leave out parents
Perhaps you are thinking of death certs in Scotland.
Debra :)
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Hi and thanks to both of you.
Such quick replies.
Dundee, No , not the Scotland ones. These are English and i have in the past made goo use of them. the Scotland Certs are fantastic and so is SP.
For both of you, thanks for the update on what is on the certs. So after 1900 pretty useless unless you know a lot of other information.
I am in Australia and what we see varies from state to state. In my neck of the woods we can search the DB for deaths up to 1991 and the result shows parents if known and sometimes date of birth. So we are a bit spoilt. We are able to get PDF immediately but Certified ones are posted. We also can get source documents. Each state is a little different but basically the same info is available.
So now I need to rethink how to make this work in England.
Cheers Essnell
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Perhaps try newspaper reports as they may provide relatives.
ie: I have a relative who drowned in the English channel and the Welsh newspaper reports provided enough information to confirm he was my 3rd Great Grandfather, however there is no Death Registration for him.
I'm from Queensland here and yes the Eastern states BDM information are usually excellent. I've not purchased any from the other states.
Mick
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Hi bikermickau,
I'm a Queenslander too, yes I have had dealings with NSW and VIC and SA, SA have a Genealogical Soc where you can get Certs etc as well as the Government.
I find NSW harder as their website often is not fully functional. ::)
Such is life.
I think I might see if I can get anything useful out of GRO, worth trying.
Take care and stay safe,
Essnell.
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These are English and i have in the past made goo use of them. the Scotland Certs are fantastic and so is SP.
For both of you, thanks for the update on what is on the certs. So after 1900 pretty useless unless you know a lot of other information.
You really must be thinking of something else as English death certs have never had parents' names on them since the beginning of civil reg. in 1837. You may find it noted in the occupation or informant column in the case of an infant death.
Debra :)
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Hi Dundee ,
Thanks for the Info. Old age must be catching up.
Essnell.
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The GRO only hold copies of certificates, the originals are held by local Register Offices. Original signatures on marriage certificates can usually be seen if you locate the entry in the appropriate Parish Records.
You may find it helpful to view examples of the various certificates and other records on Guy Etchell’s website.
http://anguline.co.uk/cert/certificates.
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Thank you Jebber,
I shall take a look.
Maybe it might be useful to also see what the relevant Local Registry Office has.
The documents look just like someone had type in the information from some sort of source document.
Thank you again
Essnell.
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Be cautious of GRO certificates you see attached to people's Ancestry trees. Some time ago I was involved in a thread where someone was adamant that an English birth certificate contained the date of birth and parentage of the baby's father. It transpired that the poster had not purchased their own copy of the certificate from the GRO but relied on one uploaded to an Ancestry tree. The tree owner had annotated the certificate with details they thought to be correct before uploading. (If memory serves me correct, even the father's name was not on the original certificate, so it may not have been the true father). Those unfamiliar with the content of English /Welsh certificates could easily be misled into thinking that these details were typically included.
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Thank you Jebber,
I shall take a look.
Maybe it might be useful to also see what the relevant Local Registry Office has.
The documents look just like someone had type in the information from some sort of source document.
Thank you again
Essnell.
In my experience of purchasing certificates from local ROs, a clerk transcribes the information onto a standard form from the original register entry, not even a copy of the register entry. Last time I used a local RO instead of GRO was around 10 years ago for 1950s deaths so they may have progressed to a typewriter now. There would be no difference in the information than that on a Certificate from the GRO.
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Thank you Jebber,
I shall take a look.
Maybe it might be useful to also see what the relevant Local Registry Office has.
The documents look just like someone had type in the information from some sort of source document.
Thank you again
Essnell.
Even if you are able to get a photo copy of the original entry from the local RO, on birth and death certificates you will see exactly the same information as the copy from the GRO, except you will see the signature of the informant. There will be no extra information.
Prior to the digitising of the records, any copy from the GRO would be a handwritten or typed copy. The pdfs are at least a digital copy of the entry.
I should add, now everything is computerised you don’t even see the signature on certificates. The certificates I have for recent deaths I have had to register, the certificate doesn’t show my signature, Just the printed information.
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HI Everyone,
Thank you all for taking time to explain the GRO Death Cert info.
I will have to find another way to identify a dead persons parentage.
Cheers All and many thanks.
Essnell.
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Provided you don't give the names of living people, why not post the name and information you have on the person you are trying to research. There are many people on here who will probably be willing to help. It is surprising what Rootschat members can uncover when the odds look remote.
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In my experience of purchasing certificates from local ROs, a clerk transcribes the information onto a standard form from the original register entry, not even a copy of the register entry. Last time I used a local RO instead of GRO was around 10 years ago for 1950s deaths so they may have progressed to a typewriter now. There would be no difference in the information than that on a Certificate from the GRO.
That's not always the case. Some local register offices provide a scan of the original entry, which can be extremely useful if there are signatures. And of course you can judge for yourself if there has been a mistranscription in the index or the GRO copy.
Some years back I started a thread for people to list what kind of copies they were getting from local ROs. I thought it would be a useful reference tool, but sadly it was closed by a moderator for no good reason and sank without trace. >:(
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=441803.0
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Hi Jebber,
Thankyou for being so kind and thoughtful as is everyone else. This time I actually don't need to have the chasing done. I would have asked if it was required and I have had heaps of amazing help from Rootschatters in the past.
I have the birth info and marriage info and on the PDF is the spouse's name so I will be able to connect them together. Added to that the address matches the 1939 register. So all good.
So ,yes, no parents on Death Certs from England.
Sloe Gin. Well that's what I was thinking about the local RO's . I still might give it a go. you never know what night turn up.
Cheers Essnell
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In my experience of purchasing certificates from local ROs, a clerk transcribes the information onto a standard form from the original register entry, not even a copy of the register entry. Last time I used a local RO instead of GRO was around 10 years ago for 1950s deaths so they may have progressed to a typewriter now. There would be no difference in the information than that on a Certificate from the GRO.
That's not always the case. Some local register offices provide a scan of the original entry, which can be extremely useful if there are signatures. And of course you can judge for yourself if there has been a mistranscription in the index or the GRO copy.
Lucky to get a scan, admittedly my Local RO experience is limited to an RO in Staffordshire and several certificates for the same office in Hertfordshire.
Interestingly the cert from Staffs had more information than the certificate that the couple took home after their marriage. The bride's age was missing from their copy - evidently a mistake by the vicar.
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You can occasionally get a parent named on death certificates in England/Wales - those for children and unmarried women may name their father....as in this example (for the death of a six year old child, in 1918).
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I have seen similar, as you say usually a child or unmarried female. Neither would have a rank or profession (although that is a debatable point with an adult unmarried female), so the Registrar just wanted to put something in the box on the form.
And of course it depended how much the informant registering the death knew about the deceased.
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.. so the Registrar just wanted to put something in the box on the form.
It was GRO instructions - not something the registrar decided. Still applies to children under 16, but would now include the mother and the father.
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.. so the Registrar just wanted to put something in the box on the form.
It was GRO instructions - not something the registrar decided. Still applies to children under 16, but would now include the mother and the father.
But was that always the case right from 1st July 1837? I know more and more has been included over the years on B,M and D certs. Early certs I have only give a town or village for people's residences, even though they have at least a street address on censuses. Marriages don't record actual age for those who are 21 or over, and the bride rarely has an occupation listed.
If I sent for the death certificate of someone who died in 1845 aged a few months would it confirm who her father was?
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That's not always the case. Some local register offices provide a scan of the original entry, which can be extremely useful if there are signatures. And of course you can judge for yourself if there has been a mistranscription in the index or the GRO copy.
All those I have are from Lancashire and are scans of original entries.
My grandmother's maiden surname has been incorrectly transcribed for my dad's birth in GRO index. Maiden surname of an aunt also incorrectly transcribed for 1 birth. Death registration (1841) of a baby son of my 3xGGM has him aged 5 years instead of 5 months on GRO index.
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The instructions given to registrars can be found in the RG series files at Kew, but take some digging out and they have changed a lot over time.
If I sent for the death certificate of someone who died in 1845 aged a few months would it confirm who her father was?
I'd be very surprised if it didn't...
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The instructions given to registrars can be found in the RG series files at Kew, but take some digging out and they have changed a lot over time.
If I sent for the death certificate of someone who died in 1845 aged a few months would it confirm who her father was?
I'd be very surprised if it didn't...
Thank you, I can only find the RG41 series, but that doesn't seem to go back further than 1909
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I have a death certificate from 1838 where an un-married female (my 3rd great aunt) died aged 36, and both her parents are named. Not got the actual copy saved on the computer where I'm working, but the info from the certificate which I added to my tree says.... 'daughter of Jonathan Foreman (farmer) and Susanna, formerly his wife'. I already knew this but very helpful for anyone researching the family as Susanna had died and Jonathan was married to his 2nd wife when his daughter died.
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But was that always the case right from 1st July 1837? I know more and more has been included over the years on B,M and D certs. Early certs I have only give a town or village for people's residences, even though they have at least a street address on censuses. Marriages don't record actual age for those who are 21 or over, and the bride rarely has an occupation listed.
If I sent for the death certificate of someone who died in 1845 aged a few months would it confirm who her father was?
I've got a death cert from 1838 for an infant, and it gives father's name and occupation in the "rank or profession" column. The informant was the mother, so her name is also confirmed.
It also includes the address under "When Died".