RootsChat.Com

Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Nzinga8 on Sunday 12 September 21 10:40 BST (UK)

Title: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Sunday 12 September 21 10:40 BST (UK)
Hi all, Looking for any info on the parents of a John telfer Hutton born 1856 Edinburgh Midlothian. I know he married a Maggie McIntyre not sure of the date or year of marriage. Most of their children were born in Ireland where John later died in 1915. Been searching for about 2yrs but keep getting nothing. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 12 September 21 10:45 BST (UK)
Where and when was their first child born
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Sunday 12 September 21 11:52 BST (UK)
Hey, in the 1911 census they are living in wishaw and it states that Maggie and all of their children were born in Ireland. I know that John later moved to belfast and died there in 1915. Iím struggling to find any info on Johnís parents.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: djm297 on Sunday 12 September 21 12:41 BST (UK)
John Hutton born 1856 Edinburgh- son of William Hutton and Margaret Bowers.
Also:
John Hutton born 1856 Edinburgh- son of James Hutton and Mary Guthrie.
Also:
John Hutton born 1856 -son of James Hutton and Isabella Nichol at Colinton, Midlothian

What are the names of John and Maggie's children?-It might help to identify the name of John's parents.

djm297
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Sunday 12 September 21 13:07 BST (UK)
The names of the kids are Christina, John, Helen, Samuel, Janet, and David. They had 11 children and at the time of the census in 1911 only 9 children were still living. Not sure of the other kids names. The Guthrie connection would be the right one I think as John had a brother Robert Guthrie Hutton who was transported to NZ, I matched with someone on dna who has Robert as an ancestor. Thank you so much!
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Maiden Stone on Sunday 12 September 21 16:09 BST (UK)
Hey, in the 1911 census they are living in wishaw and it states that Maggie and all of their children were born in Ireland.

Was length of marriage stated?
Do you have birth registrations of all the children? They should tell you John's abode & occupation at the time and may provide clues to time frame & place of marriage.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Sunday 12 September 21 18:19 BST (UK)
It says the length of marriage at the date or census as 27yrs. I donít have birth certificate for Christina as she is my direct ancestor. I have her death certificate but it only states her age at death.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Sunday 12 September 21 18:25 BST (UK)
On Christinaís marriage certificate it stated her father as John telfer Hutton a blacksmith journeyman.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 12 September 21 18:40 BST (UK)
I think I might have been looking at your online a/try tree with the image of the 1911 census, Nzinga8.

This also shows John as a blacksmith by trade. Struggling to see them so far in 1901.

The image is not that sharp unfortunately. I think son David looks to have been born in Scotland (Lanarkshire?). Can you check on your copy (if it is your tree!) what it says for his birth place please?

Their daughter Christina married in Scotland in 1909? Is it from this record that you have been able to confirm her mother's name as being Margaret McIntyre?

Monica


 
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 12 September 21 18:42 BST (UK)
Also, I do not think that John Hutton's birthplace is showing as Edinburgh  :-\ Can this be checked too?

Monica  :)
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: DonM on Sunday 12 September 21 20:36 BST (UK)
The 1911 Census says he was born in Renfrewshire, a blacksmith operating a coalcutter.

In 1846 an Alexander Hutton (Blacksmith) married a Margaret Telfer in Abbey (Neilston).

In 1861 Census the family is in Abbey (Alexander 46) John is listed as 11 birthplace Renfrew plus a many other children.

There is no birth in OPR's for a any of the children. They could have been baptized in another church or did not bother.

I this your John?  Probably but only his marriage or death will verify this.

Don

Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 12 September 21 20:39 BST (UK)
That sounds more likely, Don  ;)

Did you note where son David was born? Maybe Lanarkshire, Motherwell I thought?

John Hutton died in Belfast in 1915. His age is given as 60...so likely lost a few years along the way...

Monica
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 12 September 21 20:42 BST (UK)
From the 1911 entry, they showed as married around 27 years. So circa 1883. Can't see the marriage as yet...nor births in Ireland for their children up to Janet's birth there c.1900-1.

Children for them so far:

Christina b. 1891
Helen b. 1893
John b. 1895
Samuel b. 1898
Janet b. 1901
David b. 1903

All birth years approx as no birth certs found yet for them. So we have 6 names from the 9 living children and two more who died young.

Monica
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 12 September 21 20:50 BST (UK)
Some others have John Hutton born 1850 as having married and died young www.ancestry.co.uk/genealogy/records/john-hutton-24-2dt7hh

Would need to be checked on Scotlands People as always.

Added: I cannot see a corresponding death for this John on SP so far. Some further details on this family here www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/K2TK-HFV

Janet Stark/Hutton is showing as widowed in 1881 but married in 1891. If the same John Hutton, could he have left her and started a new life with Margaret McIntyre? Hard to say really without further details.

Monica
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 12 September 21 21:25 BST (UK)
From the Motherwell Times 6 November 1908, there is mention of a death of Louisa, daughter of John Telfer Hutton.

Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 12 September 21 21:29 BST (UK)
Louisa Hutton was 8 at the time of her death in January 1908. Please note that her mother Margaret is showing with the maiden name of HAMILTON on this document.

Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 12 September 21 22:08 BST (UK)
Just additional details which I think make the possibility that John, son of Alexander Hutton and Margaret Telfer and husband of Janet Stark may be the same John Telfer Hutton 'married' to Margaret Hamilton/Hamill...

Agnes, daughter of John Hutton and Janet Stark was born in 1874 in Coatbridge Lanarkshire. She married in 1899 in Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire to John Rutherford. Agnes gave her father's details as John Telfer Hutton, Blacksmith (not showing as deceased). She named her first born son b. in 1899 John Telfer Hutton Rutherford.

I thought that after Janet Stark Hutton died in 1909, John and Margaret may have married legally (assuming my guesses are correct  ::)) but no sign as yet of a marriage.

Jury still out as to how their children's births were registered in Ireland.

Monica
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 12 September 21 23:02 BST (UK)
On that 1911 census which is very blurry, it looks as if the youngest David, aged 8 is born in Lanarkshire - then I can't make out the place name. I think it is Motherwell too.
I wonder if he is registered under his mother's name, HAMILTON, and not HUTTON?
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Sunday 12 September 21 23:47 BST (UK)
Yes thatís how I identified her parents as John and Maggie. Itís been a brutal long road but Iím determined to push on.
Yes that would be my ancestry tree, I have put James and Mary as Johnís parents. I canít find James on anything before he has married or had kids.

It shows david as being born in Motherwell Lanarkshire I didnít notice that before. Itís also shows John telfer Hutton as being a blacksmith, coal cutter machine worker. Iv hit a brick wall with James Hutton.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: DonM on Sunday 12 September 21 23:48 BST (UK)
Acquire a original copy of David's death registration it will show you who his parents were.  There is no shortcut.

Margaret died 1886 Falkirk her parents were Thomas Telfer (Blacksmith) and Margaret Smith.  Charles Hutton, son was the informant.

Don

Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Monday 13 September 21 10:04 BST (UK)
Yeah the amount of death certificates Iv had to buy so far is unreal but I suppose itís the only way to get the info you need. Thank you so much, Iíll get the certificate today.

Thank you to everyone else who has posted and helped itís greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 13 September 21 12:31 BST (UK)
Can't see the marriage as yet...nor births in Ireland for their children up to Janet's birth there c.1900-1.

All birth years approx as no birth certs found yet for them.


I couldn't find a birth registration for Janet in Ireland, nor for David but I see now that David seems to have been born in Scotland. I searched a couple of years either side of approximate birth year. There was a Jennie Hutton but father's name not John.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en
Birth registrations to 1920 are free to search and view.   
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Monday 13 September 21 13:04 BST (UK)
I actually called the registrars office in belfast but they had no record of Christinaís birth either. Could it be they registered the birth through the church but not with the official records? I know when I looked for James and Mary Guthrie marriage I couldnt find it in the statutory records however found it in church records.

Thank you so much Iíll have a look at that site.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 13 September 21 13:23 BST (UK)
I actually called the registrars office in belfast but they had no record of Christinaís birth either. Could it be they registered the birth through the church but not with the official records? I know when I looked for James and Mary Guthrie marriage I couldnt find it in the statutory records however found it in church records.

Thank you so much Iíll have a look at that site.

Births in Ireland were registered at local district registry offices. Nothing to do with a church.
Civil registration of births began in Ireland 1864. The Irish Genealogy website in my previous reply is essential for Irish BMDs. Coverage is for the whole country until the Partition of Ireland in 1921.

When was the marriage of James Hutton & Mary Guthrie?  Civil registration began in Scotland in 1855.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Monday 13 September 21 14:23 BST (UK)
Their marriage was 1847 in paisley. Itís doesnít list either of their parents names though. Iíll keep checking.
Maggie is buried in Ireland as is John, I will try and obtain both death certificates as see if they have any more info on them however I fear that they might just contain cause of death etc as Christinaís death certificate doesnít give us any other info other than the day she died and what was the cause.

Yeah I had a look at the website you posted the link for and canít really find anything either, Maggie was 64 when she died in 1929 so estimated her birth as 1864 or 65.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 13 September 21 20:44 BST (UK)
Irish death certs unfortunately won't provide any further details re parents for John and Maggie.

John's 1915 death reg https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1915/05283/4467968.pdf

I can't see Margaret's death on there with the details you gave (1929, aged 64).

If you haven't used this site before, just tick the recaptcha box and add your name and tick to view the image.

Monica
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 13 September 21 20:58 BST (UK)
I actually called the registrars office in belfast but they had no record of Christinaís birth either.

What maiden name did you give the registrar's office for the search? You have mentioned that Maggie's maiden name was McIntyre, but this was Christina's middle name. Maggie's maiden name from Christina's marriage and Louisa's death in 1908 is Hamill or Hamilton.

I have just found daughter Louisa's birth reg under the surname of TELFER, mother HAMILL. See image here https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02054/1786088.pdf

Daughter Janet's registration from 1901 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1901/01957/1755551.pdf

Monica
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 13 September 21 21:04 BST (UK)
And this is son David's birth registration:

DAVID HATTON TELFER
1903
625/3 129
Bellshill Lanarkshire

Monica
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 13 September 21 21:17 BST (UK)
I think this might be the family group in 1901 in Belfast under TELFORD www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000718181/ Their address of 23 Pitt Street Belfast matches with the address for the registration of daughter Janet's birth a couple of weeks later.

Some of the older children we had no details on there.

Your Christina is showing as born in Derry City from her census entry.

Monica

Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 13 September 21 21:44 BST (UK)
Finally, the marriage https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11006/8024477.pdf

This confirms that John Telfer Hutton, not surprisingly by now, was the son of Alexander Hutton, blacksmith, and his wife Margaret Telfer.

John married in Scotland in 1872 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTGC-4XT to Janet Stark and had three children. He doesn't show with the family on the 1881 census...because he was in Belfast marrying Maggie Hamill  ;) Some avoidance of the use of the name Hutton by using Telfer (his mother's maiden name) sometimes written as Telford in his family's records.

His marriage implies I think that John was illegitimate. Nzinga8, hopefully you will be able to establish the facts when following up and researching John's family  :)

From this registration, you now also have Maggie's father's name to help you develop and connect to her family also.

Monica
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 13 September 21 21:45 BST (UK)
Oooh Ö Monica! What brilliant finds!  ;)
You have no idea how long I searched for them in the 1901 census and for the births of children.
I didnít think about looking under Telfer.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 13 September 21 21:51 BST (UK)
I thought I had tried the other names yesterday, but obviously not! Hard group to find with all the different names.

Monica
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 13 September 21 21:57 BST (UK)
A reminder of Don's earlier post. So, John was not illegitimate as parents married in 1846. He likely stated this to explain his use of the surname Telfer rather than Hutton for his marriage registration.

He was obviously trying to cover his tracks a bit...he could have given a false name for his father too  ::) At least he gave enough correct details for us to know now who he was!

An A/try Hutton family tree here with a number of original images attached you might want to have a look through www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/31206797/person/432311915686/facts


In 1846 an Alexander Hutton (Blacksmith) married a Margaret Telfer in Abbey (Neilston).

In 1861 Census the family is in Abbey (Alexander 46) John is listed as 11 birthplace Renfrew plus a many other children.

There is no birth in OPR's for a any of the children. They could have been baptized in another church or did not bother.

I this your John?  Probably but only his marriage or death will verify this.

Don

Monica
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 13 September 21 22:12 BST (UK)
There are birth registrations for the Hutton- Telfer children, just no parish records pre 1855 registration, so nothing for John.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?q.surname=Hutton&q.birthLikeDate.from=1850&q.birthLikeDate.to=1880&q.fatherGivenName=Alexander&q.motherGivenName=Margaret&q.motherSurname=Telfer&f.recordCountry=Scotland&m.defaultFacets=on&m.queryRequireDefault=on&m.facetNestCollectionInCategory=on&count=20&offset=0

The census shows the first children born were Andrew 1848 and John, and Janet & Isabella all born in Abbey parish before 1855.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 13 September 21 23:19 BST (UK)
Now Monica has done all the hard work, I will breeze in with the easy stuff Ö.  :)

Birth and Death records for Johnís parents Ė Alexander and Margaret
DEATH
HUTTON   ALEXANDER   65   mother- DUNCAN   1886   479/1 46   Falkirk Burgh

BIRTH
HUTTON   ALEXANDER   
ANDREW HUTTON/  ISOBEL DUNCAN FR1403 CHILD 9 (FR1403)   
M   27/09/1818   622/    50 456   Barony

Parents Andrew and Isabel were married 1803 in Lochwinnoch

1841 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59057240e9379091b1476eb4/andrew-hutton-1841-stirlingshire-fintry-1786-?locale=en
1851 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590579fee9379091b14cc285/andrew-hutton-1851-stirlingshire-fintry-1784-?locale=en

_____

DEATH
HUTTON   MARGARET   60   mother- SMITH   1886   479/1 18   Falkirk Burgh

BIRTH
TELFORD   MARGARET   
JOHN TELFORD/  JANET SMITH FR2090 (FR2090)   
F   24/07/1825   559/    60 190   Abbey

Parents John and Janet marriage 26/09/1824 in Abbey

1841 census for the Telford / Telfar family
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a154c66f4040b9d6e5eb679/john-telfar-1841-renfrewshire-abbey-paisley-1786-?locale=en
1851 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a15542bf4040b9d6e67520f/john-telfur-1851-renfrewshire-abbey-paisley-1782-?locale=en
1861 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59c549d0f4040bbce0d1bdab/janet-telfer-1861-renfrewshire-abbey-paisley-1794-?locale=en
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Tuesday 14 September 21 10:16 BST (UK)
Hey Monica, this may be another Maggie as I know that Christina was involved in an incident and was brought before the court in Hamilton, I have the newspaper clipping somewhere that gave her sister in law as Margaret Hamilton Hutton. Not sure if that would be the connection? Christina was born in 1891 donít know an exact date of birth. Christinaís maiden name is Hutton her married name is Manson.
Margaret is in the same grave as her husband I was able to find this through Belfast city government page and searched for burial records.

Christinaís husband was a George manson however his name at birth was Daniel Perrie born Dunoon 1883, his birth was illegitimate.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Tuesday 14 September 21 10:19 BST (UK)
David Hutton (John and maggies son) died in Belfast when he was around 20yrs old. He is also in the same grave as his parents and two other children (they were both babies when they died) the two babies in the grave are my mums aunts. Well at least we think they are as they have the name Manson and Perry.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Tuesday 14 September 21 10:21 BST (UK)
Neale1961 Blimey are we related? It seems you have had as much trouble as I have lol.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Tuesday 14 September 21 10:26 BST (UK)
Monica you are an absolute star! Thank you so much. Bellshill is not too far from where they were living in Wishaw. Alexander Hutton was one of the names I matched with on dna so Iím on the right track now thanks to you. Wow! Iím starting to think I should have posted this sooner.

Thank you to everyone who has commented and shared info, you donít realise how much I appreciate this.
My mums parents died when she was young and we didnít have any contact with this side of the family so no stories to be carried down. You folks are amazing.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 14 September 21 13:40 BST (UK)

John's 1915 death reg https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1915/05283/4467968.pdf

I can't see Margaret's death on there with the details you gave (1929, aged 64).


Margaret's death was after the Partition of Ireland so registration won't be on there.
BMD registrations after 1st January 1922 are at the General Registry Office of Northern Ireland.
Explanation here:
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/Northern-Ireland-civil-registration.html
Irish Genealogy Toolkit is a very good guide to Irish family history research. It has frequent updates.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Tuesday 14 September 21 14:00 BST (UK)
Belfast city have the burial records online and when you press on the grave section it also shows who else is in the grave, Margaret Hutton aged 64 was buried on 6/3/1929 died 4/3/1929. It also gives the address as 100 Lord street Belfast. My gran was born at 102 Lord street Belfast.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Kiltaglassan on Tuesday 14 September 21 14:10 BST (UK)

Margaret & John Hutton's grave in Dundonald Cemetery.
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx?GraveSection=F5&GraveNumber=811&CemeteryName=Dundonald%20Cemetery

From GRONI online https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
D/1929/58/1007/39/14   Margaret Hutton   4th March 1929       64     Female      Belfast

KG




Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Nzinga8 on Tuesday 14 September 21 19:30 BST (UK)
Yes thatís the one. It was this website that we found my gran and great grandmas burial place. Such an amazing site for info.
Title: Re: Huttons of greenside Edinburgh
Post by: Neale1961 on Wednesday 15 September 21 02:54 BST (UK)
Just adding a bit for the son Hugh, born in England

Birth Registration:
TELFER, HUGH  HAMMIL                 mother: HAMMIL 
GRO Reference: 1883  D Quarter in SOUTH STONEHAM 
Volume 02C  Page 56

Hugh, age 18, occupation blacksmith, Attested 21st Jan 1902 Belfast, & joined the Royal Irish Fusiliers, Number 7402
There is a small file on Ancestry Ė He was in trouble for desertion 18th April 1902.