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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: sueellio on Saturday 02 October 21 12:14 BST (UK)
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Hi. I have a 1921 military record for Charles Ernest Rodgers b 1891. Regiment is the RFA, rank gunner and his number is 58454. At the time he was living in Fence Houses, Durham. The location and year of of birth are how I know that the record refers to the person I'm searching for info' about.
I know little else definite about him prior to this military record, but he MAY have been born in Ireland and come over to England with 2 brothers to join the military when he was aged about 15, so around 1906.
He married in Fence Houses in 1914, but I can't find him on the 1911 census in Fence Houses.
I did find a London parish birth record for a Charles Ernest ROGERS JULY 3RD 1891 , mother Sophia ROGERS. No father listed. The document does record whether legitimate or illegitimate, but that info hasn't been transcribed onto the ancestry record and the image of the doc is chopped off so I can only see the first few letters ,which I think are " ILL.."
I wasn't sure from the record if these were poor law union records or not? Also not sure what images I'm allowed to post here.
Any help greatly appreciated
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Does the birth date 3 July 1891 tie in with your Charles' entry on the 1939 register? I see there is a match in Dearne.
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1911 Census:
Name: Charles Ernest Rogers
Age in 1911: 19
Birth Place: London, Lambeth, Surrey, England
Street Address: Bulford Hut Barracks, Bulford Camp, Salisbury
Rank: Gunner
Military Unit: 72nd Battery Royal Field Artillery
Tony
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Does the birth date 3 July 1891 tie in with your Charles' entry on the 1939 register? I see there is a match in Dearne.
His wife in 1939 matches with a 1914 marriage in Durham as stated in the first post, so it does appear to be his baptism.
Debra :)
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The London "parish record" is not a baptism register. It's headed up "Register of Births" and every birth on the page is illegitimate. Its provenance is not clear.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1558/images/31362_189886-01031?pId=45661
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Does the birth date 3 July 1891 tie in with your Charles' entry on the 1939 register? I see there is a match in Dearne.
Yes, that's him in Dearne in 1939.
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1911 Census:
Name: Charles Ernest Rogers
Age in 1911: 19
Birth Place: London, Lambeth, Surrey, England
Street Address: Bulford Hut Barracks, Bulford Camp, Salisbury
Rank: Gunner
Military Unit: 72nd Battery Royal Field Artillery
Tony
Fabulous👍Thank you.
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The London "parish record" is not a baptism register. It's headed up "Register of Births" and every birth on the page is illegitimate. Its provenance is not clear.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1558/images/31362_189886-01031?pId=45661
Could it be from the work house? Did you see on the transcript there was a column headed something like poor law baptism ? Sorry for rush. Currently fitting skirting boards but wanted to reply with thanks.
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Does the birth date 3 July 1891 tie in with your Charles' entry on the 1939 register? I see there is a match in Dearne.
His wife in 1939 matches with a 1914 marriage in Durham as stated in the first post, so it does appear to be his baptism.
Debra :)
Yes that's correct🙂
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So I wonder where the info re Ireland came from then? I'll have a look for some info on his mother, Sophia.
Thank you everyone.
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One of his WW1 pension index cards has two army numbers: 58454 and 1018859.
There is a Royal Artillery attestation register entry for Charles Ernest Rodgers 1018859 (formerly 58454), a barman, born Lambeth, attested at Stratford 30/8/1909. Married Elsie May Dickinson at Houghton-le-Spring 30/9/1914. Served in France 1915, India 1917, Salonika 1915-1917. Discharged 29/8/1921.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FROYALART%2F1018001-1019000%2F00146&parentid=GBM%2FROYALART%2F39524
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One of his WW1 pension index cards has two army numbers: 58454 and 1018859.
There is a Royal Artillery attestation register entry for Charles Ernest Rodgers 1018859 (formerly 58454), a barman, born Lambeth, attested at Stratford 30/8/1909. Married Elsie May Dickinson at Houghton-le-Spring 30/9/1914. Served in France 1915, India 1917, Salonika 1915-1917. Discharged 29/8/1921.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FROYALART%2F1018001-1019000%2F00146&parentid=GBM%2FROYALART%2F39524
Fabulous info' . Thanks. I don't have a FindMyPast sub'.
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The London "parish record" is not a baptism register. It's headed up "Register of Births" and every birth on the page is illegitimate. Its provenance is not clear.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1558/images/31362_189886-01031?pId=45661
I searched and the citation for that record is:
London Metropolitan Archives; London, England; London Church of England Parish Registers; Reference Number: LABG/174/01
and this page on Family Search has that as from the Board of Guardians Records at LMA
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1390389?availability=Family%20History%20Library
I'd try emailing the LMA to see if they can give any more info about that catalogue reference, I am unsure if they are baptisms or just a list of illegitimate births so they could perhaps get the reputed father to finance the upkeep of the child rather than the Guardians paying.
Boo
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The London "parish record" is not a baptism register. It's headed up "Register of Births" and every birth on the page is illegitimate. Its provenance is not clear.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1558/images/31362_189886-01031?pId=45661
I searched and the citation for that record is:
London Metropolitan Archives; London, England; London Church of England Parish Registers; Reference Number: LABG/174/01
and this page on Family Search has that as from the Board of Guardians Records at LMA
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1390389?availability=Family%20History%20Library
I'd try emailing the LMA to see if they can give any more info about that catalogue reference, I am unsure if they are baptisms or just a list of illegitimate births so they could perhaps get the reputed father to finance the upkeep of the child rather than the Guardians paying.
Boo
Thank you Boo.
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This is his birth registration from the GRO Indexes, he was definitely born illegitimately as there is no mother's maiden name recorded, his birth has been registered under her surname instead.
ROGERS, CHARLES ERNEST Mother's maiden name: -
GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 366
On Ancestry, the reference that ShaunJ found comes up as being associated with the Lambeth Poor Law Union, although it unfortunately doesn't seem to be listed separately under the parishes list for Lambeth, it just seems to come up under Lambeth itself. There are at least two other registers under the same heading, one of which is for births in the Lambeth Workhouse.
It appears that Charles and Elsie also had a son, Robert Steward Rodgers, who was lost in the torpedoing and subsequent sinking of HMS Fearless in July 1941.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2486994/ROBERT%20STEWARD%20RODGERS/ (https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2486994/ROBERT%20STEWARD%20RODGERS/)
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This is his birth registration from the GRO Indexes, he was definitely born illegitimately as there is no mother's maiden name recorded, his birth has been registered under her surname instead.
ROGERS, CHARLES ERNEST Mother's maiden name: -
GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 366
On Ancestry, the reference that ShaunJ found comes up as being associated with the Lambeth Poor Law Union, although it unfortunately doesn't seem to be listed separately under the parishes list for Lambeth, it just seems to come up under Lambeth itself. There are at least two other registers under the same heading, one of which is for births in the Lambeth Workhouse.
It appears that Charles and Elsie also had a son, Robert Steward Rodgers, who was lost in the torpedoing and subsequent sinking of HMS Fearless in July 1941.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2486994/ROBERT%20STEWARD%20RODGERS/ (https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2486994/ROBERT%20STEWARD%20RODGERS/)
Thank you. Yes, that's correct re Robert.
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Hi. I have a 1921 military record for Charles Ernest Rodgers b 1891. Regiment is the RFA, rank gunner and his number is 58454. At the time he was living in Fence Houses, Durham. The location and year of of birth are how I know that the record refers to the person I'm searching for info' about.
I know little else definite about him prior to this military record, but he MAY have been born in Ireland and come over to England with 2 brothers to join the military when he was aged about 15, so around 1906.
He married in Fence Houses in 1914, but I can't find him on the 1911 census in Fence Houses.
I did find a London parish birth record for a Charles Ernest ROGERS JULY 3RD 1891 , mother Sophia ROGERS. No father listed. The document does record whether legitimate or illegitimate, but that info hasn't been transcribed onto the ancestry record and the image of the doc is chopped off so I can only see the first few letters ,which I think are " ILL.."
I wasn't sure from the record if these were poor law union records or not? Also not sure what images I'm allowed to post here.
Any help greatly appreciated
I'm not sure if I should start a new topic in a different board.
On hunting around for his mother, Sophia/ Sophie, I've found another illegitimate birth to a Sophia Rogers in Lambeth in May 1893. John William Rogers
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1558/images/31362_189886-00114?pId=37227
Also a record for a Sophia Rogers in the London Workhouse admissions and discharges came up in an ancestry search, but I don't have the higher subscription to view it.
If Charles Ernest first enlisted in 1909 would there be a record of his NOK? Presumably it may just be his mother's name with no other details.
Curious regarding the 1911 census record of him in Salisbury, but he's marrying in Fencehouses in 1914 and the lady who's his grandaughter seems to think he was a guest at her grandmother's family's guesthouse in Fencehouses and that's how he and Elsie May met.
I did find a 1901 census record for a Charles Rogers aged 10 at Craven College St Pancras. Looking at the info' available it seems it was a fee paying school , which I found curious. I can't find any other 1901 census record which would be a possibility for him.
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I can't find any other 1901 census record which would be a possibility for him.
In the 1901 census in Islington there's this curious listing at 13 Charlotte Street:
Eliza D Brown age 60 born Rainham Essex
Sarah Adams age 40 daughter born Lambeth
Charles E (no surname) age 9 visitor born Lambeth
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I can't find any other 1901 census record which would be a possibility for him.
In the 1901 census in Islington there's this curious listing at 13 Charlotte Street:
Eliza D Brown age 60 born Rainham Essex
Sarah Adams age 40 daughter born Lambeth
Charles E (no surname) age 9 visitor born Lambeth
Ha ha. Thank you Shaun.
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I searched and the citation for that record is:
London Metropolitan Archives; London, England; London Church of England Parish Registers; Reference Number: LABG/174/01
and this page on Family Search has that as from the Board of Guardians Records at LMA
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1390389?availability=Family%20History%20Library
These records are free to view on Family Search who have included both left side and right side of the page.
The record for Charles Ernest in 1891 is here:
left side:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS2G-BST9-8?i=1026&cat=1390389
right side:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS2G-BST9-V?i=1027&cat=1390389
If you click the Information tab at the bottom of the pages it shows that this record in item 10 on the film and says they are Brookdrive Infirmary births, October 1883-March 1921, LABG/174/01.
Apparently ( I am really unfamiliar with this area) Brookfield Drive Infirmary adjoined Lambeth Workhouse [ADDED Renfrew Road Workhouse] and eventually became Lambeth Hospital
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/4a5e1172-d9b7-4231-9108-3d0abc01d177
I haven't yet found a creed register entry in 1891 or 1893 for Sophia but am firkling through the various records on FS to see if there is anything. They are not indexed so its old style page through the film/images and takes some time
Boo
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LOL and just as I said I couldn't find her this popped up in 1893
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1Y-NSL2-8?i=1725&cat=1390389
see next page too for details
Information tab says its from Renfrew Road Workhouse, creed registers, (surnames N-R), March 1886-October 1893, LABG/167/018
Boo
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Still firkling
This seems to be the register of births entry for John William
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS2G-BSTV-V?i=111&cat=1390389
Plus next image for the right hand side of the record
The Information tab for that entry (within Item 2) gives a ref of Renfrew Road Workhouse, register of births, 1875, 1883, 1892-1895, LABG/168/01
Boo
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Thank you so much Boo ( my son's half sister 12 years younger calls him Boo, because he always used to say " boo" to her when she was very small -lol)
At the moment, I'm not convinced that Sophie Maud b1872, father Edward , mother Harriet Glover, is the mother of Charles Ernest .
Doesn't help that the first name is rarely spelled the same in records, and latterly we seem to change from Rogers and Rodgers. Charles Ernest seems to have been born Rogers
I've just found another birth record for a Sophia Rogers in 1870 in Middlesex so I shall explore her and see where I get.
Also the 1901 census record that Shaun found . How can there be an age recorded but no surname ? Seems odd.