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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Clarejk on Tuesday 05 October 21 13:42 BST (UK)

Title: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Tuesday 05 October 21 13:42 BST (UK)
Hi guys

I'm looking for information on a Mary wall from clare not sure exactly clonlasa or clonlara who married a martin curtin from kilkishen co clare
Looking to know who her parents are etc siblings etc any information would be great thanks
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 05 October 21 15:46 BST (UK)
Welcome to rootschat. 

Could we have some dates please
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 05 October 21 15:58 BST (UK)
Welcome from me also.  :)

There is a marriage here - is this your couple?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1874/11234/8118712.pdf

You just need to tick that you are not a robot and sign in.  :)
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Tuesday 05 October 21 16:30 BST (UK)
Thank you for the lovely welcome to the two of you.
Not sure if I'm writing this in the right area still getting used to this site.
Rosie we think Mary wall born around 1852 and died 23rd june 1907 in clonlea graveyard kilkishen.
Heywood thank you so much for the wedding certificate so greatly appreciated.
John wall and hanora hickey is that who her mum and dad are according to the wedding certificate? Is there a way I can find out  who her siblings  were and what's her grandmother name?
Thanks 
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 06 October 21 07:21 BST (UK)
Her father is shown as deceased on the marriage certificate.
The witnesses are John Malley and Hanora Hickey.

This looks like her father’s death. The residence is Coolderra, the same as the marriage certificate and daughter,Mary,  is the informant.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1871/020769/7286105.pdf

It says he is married so mother must still be alive in 1871.
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 06 October 21 07:39 BST (UK)
Where do you have Mary after her marriage?

1901 census shows a James Wall in Cloonlara which you mention

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Clare/Kiltenanlea/Cloonlara/1083225/

And also James Walle in Coolderry (mentioned earlier). The two places are close.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Clare/Cloghera/Coolderry/1082679/

This one married Ellen Ryan and his father shown as John (not noted as deceased but that is not always shown)

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1872/11303/8146916.pdf

Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 06 October 21 07:46 BST (UK)
This looks to be Mary in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Clare/Kilkishen/Killeen/1086272/

And her death in 1907
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05519/4547003.pdf
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Wednesday 06 October 21 09:35 BST (UK)
 Morning Heywood the Census you got in 1901 and 1907 are correct.
Wall no e in her name.
John wall and hanora hickey do you think that's her parents from the 1st  marriage certificate you sent? I dont have anyone after Mary wall thats where I'm stuck.  I wasent sure if her dad was James.
The malley is relating to martin curtin on that wedding piece of paper that's his mum side so I say it could be correct.
Mary wall married curtin in kilkishen.
So maybe hanora hickey is her mum and a John wall?
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 06 October 21 09:49 BST (UK)
The 10 Feb.1874 marriage gives Hanora Hickey as a witness & is unlikely to be her mother (father died 11 Apr.1871 so unless mother remarried right after his death her surname would not be Hickey).

Death for a widow Norah Wall, widow of a James Wall (marriage gave Mary Wall's father as John)- born c1804-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1890/06101/4741284.pdf
It's possible Mary Wall's moved elsewhere after the death of her husband. However, it's also possible that the information on the death certificate is incorrect (son James Wall was informant so perhaps his Christian name put down for deceased husband).
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Wednesday 06 October 21 10:27 BST (UK)
Hi Aghadowey

I must have read it wrong I thought hickey would be her maiden name. As you can see I'm clueless at this.
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Wednesday 06 October 21 10:57 BST (UK)
Hi  Aghadowey
Is there a way of pasting a photo into this. I have her name written down but cannot make out the spelling beside it and also after her are the o malleys from ballyvorgal
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Wednesday 06 October 21 11:02 BST (UK)
Heywood
 The o malleys from ballyvorgal are after the walls. I don't have any information on them.
 I have a spelling for where Mary wall Is from but cannot make it out is there a way of posting a picture in here

Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 06 October 21 11:26 BST (UK)
I had to go out but had found the death that Aghadowey found and I too wondered if it was error because the residence is the same.
I wouldn’t worry about the spelling of the surname either.

Ancestry shows 3 baptism entries for presumably the same person - Mary Wall -all Clonrush parish.

May 1850   Parents John and ‘Monora’ Duggan
22nd April 1849   John and Honora Doogan
26 1851 John and Honora Doogan

It may be that they are the same record from different sources. The records are poor as you can see. It is right hand page - a couple of lines above ‘Frank Madden’ which seems to stand out.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634685#page/11/mode/1up

I can’t see any siblings though.  :-\
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Wednesday 06 October 21 11:50 BST (UK)
 Thanks you are both very good. It really is like trying to find a needle in a haystack hahah it's so hard to know which one etc
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Wednesday 06 October 21 12:07 BST (UK)
Martin curtin and mary wall lived in killeen kikishen and are buried in clonlea cemetery.
Do you think the 1st marriage certificate is not them then.
And the witness  they had hickey and o malley would they have to be parents etc
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: gazania on Wednesday 06 October 21 12:51 BST (UK)
Hi, I do not want to get your hopes up but I have a connection to the Wall family in Clonlara.  It is bedtime here so I will search my notes in the morning and leave a reply.  In 1994 I visited Clonlara and I was shown a headstone in the Trugh churchyard.  A Wall from Coolderry went to Australia and left a will naming family back in co Clare.  I am in Australia,  fingers crossed, I can add some relevant information.  Gazania.
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Wednesday 06 October 21 12:59 BST (UK)
Hello gazania

Great thanks for your message
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 06 October 21 13:09 BST (UK)

The malley is relating to martin curtin on that wedding piece of paper that's his mum side so I say it could be correct.
Mary wall married curtin in kilkishen.


Do you have a marriage in Kilkishen?  Here they are in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Clare/Kilkishen/Killeen/1086272/

Martin curtin and mary wall lived in killeen kikishen and are buried in clonlea cemetery.
Do you think the 1st marriage certificate is not them then.
And the witness  they had hickey and o malley would they have to be parents etc

If the surnames are common to the area, it could be that there is more than one marriage.
With regard to residences, couples moved - maybe followed husband’s family land or wife’s side etc.
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 06 October 21 13:22 BST (UK)
Martin curtin and mary wall lived in killeen kikishen and are buried in clonlea cemetery.
Do you think the 1st marriage certificate is not them then.
And the witness  they had hickey and o malley would they have to be parents etc

If the 1901 census is the correct family then the 1874 marriage posted earlier is correct (the birth registrations of their children confirm mother's maiden name, etc.)

Witnesses could be anyone- generally I've found more often siblings than parents. In our church there were what I call two perpetual witnesses- time after time they both appear as witnesses- but there was a simple explanation- one was the schoolteacher at the school attached to the church and the other the church sexton who lived across the road. Both men would have been handy to the church and both were able to sign their name (not a requirement) so were called over if witnesses were needed.
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 06 October 21 13:24 BST (UK)
Here is the parish record for that marriage
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634667#page/133/mode/1up
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 06 October 21 13:27 BST (UK)
Here is the parish record for that marriage
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634667#page/133/mode/1up

If I'm reading the record correctly then residences (townlands) for witnesses are included in the church register.
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 06 October 21 13:33 BST (UK)
Yes  :)
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Wednesday 06 October 21 13:58 BST (UK)
Heywood and Aghadowey  thanks so much at least now I have a marriage record and can try and go from there . Its a great help thank you so much
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 06 October 21 14:37 BST (UK)
There is another birth here for a Mary Wall and the mother is Hickey  :-\
It is Broadford parish where that  marriage took place.

20th April 1847
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634667#page/27/mode/1up
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Wednesday 06 October 21 15:04 BST (UK)
Not sure now at all what line or side is it on I can't see it.?

I know that there is o malleys or mealys in the link u sent before this one  from ballyvorgal in the curtin side . What was the name of the place hanora was from and whats showing as her 2nd name cannot read it ?
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 06 October 21 15:33 BST (UK)
On the left hand page, there is a diagonal stain and the Wall/Hickey baptism is under that - the fourth one down.

Which Hanora do you mean? Do you mean the first baptism I posted where Hanorah Duggan is the mother?
Or Hanorah Hickey, the marriage witness?
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Wednesday 06 October 21 17:20 BST (UK)
Heywood

I read that wrong is it hanorah duggan who is her mum then? And thanks
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 06 October 21 17:55 BST (UK)
Well …
There is a Mary Wall born abt 1850 to John Wall and Hanorah Duggan in Clonrush parish

https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0773

but also Mary Wall born 1847 to parents John Wall and Mary Hickey in Broadford parish
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0767

If you look at the maps, Broadford is the next parish to O Callaghan’s Mills parish where I think I saw some of your Curtin baptisms.

The Curtin/Wall marriage took place in Kilbane church and Martin gives that as his residence (at the time). Looking at Kilbane it is close to Broadford. Looking at Killeen that is also the right area.

However Mary, on marriage, gives her residence as Coolderra which I think is also Coolderry.


Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Wednesday 06 October 21 19:12 BST (UK)
Heywood thanks so much what is your gut telling you which is the right one hahah. I know there was a farm in kileen kilkishen from the curtin side and some of there children got baptised in killeen. I'm thinking maybe the broadford marriage is the one.
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: gazania on Thursday 07 October 21 00:55 BST (UK)
I am back.
PREAMBLE: my gggrandmother is Mary Wall (1834? -  1885) b Clonlara to James and Mary Wall according to Oz records. No record has been found for her birth. She is possibly adopted.
In 1994, I visited Clonlara and met with James Wall (died 2o13) who had extensive knowledge of his Wall family of Clonlara and extended Wall family at Coolderra. And of those who migrated to the USA. Other relatives and my self have since researched the family.

The most pertinent piece of info I can give you with relation to what has been discussed so far on Rootschat is information from the Will of Patrick Wall who died in Melbourne. The Will is dated 1923.
Patrick is from Coolderra, originally.

Patrick was unmarried and his heirs are his nieces and nephews. One nephew is John CURTIN.  I hope this helps. According to James Wall, the money from the Will was used to build a house on the Coolderra Wall farm. James took me to the farm which was sold to Hannan. The house is now used as a barn. I have photos.
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: Clarejk on Thursday 07 October 21 11:42 BST (UK)
Hi gazania

Thanks for the message

Could you email me the information you have its *  and we can chat then thanks so much


Moderator Comment: Email address removed to prevent spam, please use PM instead.
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: gazania on Friday 08 October 21 06:04 BST (UK)
Hi,
There is a tree on A…….y.which summarises what has been found so far:

John Wall and Mary Hickey had the following children:
 
James b 1841 buried Trugh 1916 ( death notice in Melbourne paper by P J Wall, brother)
MARY  bap April 1847 Broadford.    See previous post   She married Martin Curtin
Patrick Joseph b ?1848  died 1923 aged 75 Melbourne Vic Oz father, John Wall.  (left will naming      nephews and nieces)

Please feel free to PM me. Gazania.
Title: Re: Mary wall information from clare
Post by: gazania on Friday 08 October 21 06:34 BST (UK)
Hi,
Other nephew and nieces named in the Will of Patrick Joseph Wall, jeweller,dated 1923:

Patrick Wall

Mrs Hanorah Gallagher

Mrs Anne Wall Beatty (or Beattie). Of Lowell, co Middlesex, Mass., USA. Widow died 3 Apr 1927