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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Marty2021 on Friday 08 October 21 23:11 BST (UK)

Title: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Marty2021 on Friday 08 October 21 23:11 BST (UK)
We are trying to find some information on our maternal grandmother Rose Kneen who died in the Isle of Man around 1985. Wondering if she has any remaining family? Our own mother has passed away also so we have no way of finding out anything. Thank you.
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: trystan on Saturday 09 October 21 09:37 BST (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat.

We try and not mention living people here on RootsChat, it's to protect the privacy of individuals, and also things can get out of hand sometimes with people chasing wills and estates and the like.

People can contact you by Personal Message however if they have any details of Rose's remaining family if they find any.

All the best in your search,
Trystan
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 09 October 21 09:51 BST (UK)
Rose Kneen died 1985, registered in Douglas. Volume 10265, Entry 23.
(Details from ManxBMD.com)

There may be a relative mentioned on the Death Certificate?
You can order a Death Certificate from The Douglas Civil Registry Office, Deemsters Walk, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3AR.
Cost is 11.00p

https://www.gov.im/categories/births-deaths-and-marriages/order-copy-certificates/
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Marty2021 on Saturday 09 October 21 12:56 BST (UK)
Rose Kneen died 1985, registered in Douglas. Volume 10265, Entry 23.
(Details from ManxBMD.com)

There may be a relative mentioned on the Death Certificate?
You can order a Death Certificate from The Douglas Civil Registry Office, Deemsters Walk, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3AR.
Cost is 11.00p

https://www.gov.im/categories/births-deaths-and-marriages/order-copy-certificates/
Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Girl Guide on Saturday 09 October 21 13:53 BST (UK)
According to Family Search Rose was buried on 12 March 1985 at Castletown, Isle of Man.  Her birth year is given as 1919.

There is an image attached to this but in Latin.  Underneath the surname KNEEN appears to be the words Nobles Hospital.  The place Port Erin is also mentioned.

Link to the image:-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6RS9-QVB?i=37&cc=1784428&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AX8ML-1Q3

You will need to enlarge to see it properly, it's at the top of the page, no. 38

Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 09 October 21 15:07 BST (UK)
Funeral service at St Mary's Catholic Church, Castletown.
Residence - Port Erin.
Place of Death - Noble's Hospital, Douglas. (The old hospital, just a few hundred yards from where I live!).

St Mary's doesn't have a graveyard, so Rose was probably buried at Malew, or Braddan, or Rushen (which is closest to Port Erin).
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: cath151 on Saturday 09 October 21 17:49 BST (UK)
Possible marriage?    https://manxbmd.com/cgi-bin/db.cgi though can t find a corresponding Kneen groom.

Cathy

Possibly married William Henry Bridson 1958 (same ref?)
1968  marriage Rose Bridson , same ref? Thomas Henry Kneen.


 
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 09 October 21 19:48 BST (UK)
Do you have details of a gravestone?
If not, I may be able to find a location and an inscription.

Let me know ;)
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Marty2021 on Saturday 09 October 21 20:08 BST (UK)
Do you have details of a gravestone?
If not, I may be able to find a location and an inscription.

Let me know ;)
No that's why this search started originally. We were trying to find where she's buried so we could visit. You've been great, thanks so much.
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Marty2021 on Saturday 09 October 21 20:09 BST (UK)
Possible marriage?    https://manxbmd.com/cgi-bin/db.cgi though can t find a corresponding Kneen groom.

Cathy

Possibly married William Henry Bridson 1958 (same ref?)
1968  marriage Rose Bridson , same ref? Thomas Henry Kneen.
Thank you so much
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 09 October 21 21:14 BST (UK)
Do you have details of a gravestone?
If not, I may be able to find a location and an inscription.

Let me know ;)
No that's why this search started originally. We were trying to find where she's buried so we could visit. You've been great, thanks so much.

The library at the Manx Museum holds burial records (the ones I have stop in the early 1980s) and Monumental Inscriptions.
The library is closed Sunday, Monday and Tuesday.
So I will take a peek on Wednesday.

It's just a 10-15 minute walk from my flat :D
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Marty2021 on Saturday 09 October 21 21:40 BST (UK)
Do you have details of a gravestone?
If not, I may be able to find a location and an inscription.

Let me know ;)
No that's why this search started originally. We were trying to find where she's buried so we could visit. You've been great, thanks so much.

The library at the Manx Museum holds burial records (the ones I have stop in the early 1980s) and Monumental Inscriptions.
The library is closed Sunday, Monday and Tuesday.
So I will take a peek on Wednesday.

It's just a 10-15 minute walk from my flat :D
Oh that's amazing. That's so kind of you to go out of your way. We really appreciate it.
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 09 October 21 22:56 BST (UK)
There is this info on the Isle of Man, Burial Index, 1598-2003

Rose Kneen
Burial Date 12 Mar 1985
Burial Place Malew, Isle of Man

And husband,

Thomas Kneen
Burial Date 24 Jun 1982
Burial Place Malew, Isle of Man

For those with access/subs to Ancestry, there is a family tree for Thomas Kneen here www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/32768368/person/18326067491/facts  From this, the reference given for the burial is Rushen churchyard 1926 yard reference 777. A photo is included of the gravestone.

On the family tree linked above there is a photo of Rose and Thomas, also a photo and details on Thomas's first wife Elsie Monaghan. She died in 1967, the year before Thomas and Rose married. Thomas and Rose were buried with Elsie. All three are recorded on the gravestone.

Monica

Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Marty2021 on Sunday 10 October 21 09:25 BST (UK)
There is this info on the Isle of Man, Burial Index, 1598-2003

Rose Kneen
Burial Date 12 Mar 1985
Burial Place Malew, Isle of Man

And husband,

Thomas Kneen
Burial Date 24 Jun 1982
Burial Place Malew, Isle of Man

For those with access/subs to Ancestry, there is a family tree for Thomas Kneen here www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/32768368/person/18326067491/facts  From this, the reference given for the burial is Rushen churchyard 1926 yard reference 777. A photo is included of the gravestone.

One the family tree linked above there is a photo of Rose and Thomas, also a photo and details on Thomas's first wife Elsie Monaghan. She died in 1967, the year before Thomas and Rose married. Thomas and Rose were buried with Elsie. All three are recorded on the gravestone.

Monica
Hi Monica, thanks for taking the time to search. I had a look at the link, This is a different Rose though unfortunately. Our Rose was 66 when she passed away.
Best regards
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 10 October 21 15:00 BST (UK)

According to Family Search Rose was buried on 12 March 1985 at Castletown, Isle of Man.  Her birth year is given as 1919.


These details match the gravestone inscription I mentioned from that family tree. She died on 6 March and was buried on 12 March 1985 as mentioned by GG. From what GG mentioned, she would have been aged 66 or so at her time of death.

I think the tree mentioned in correct in other respects but not so Rose  :-\ I would suggest tree owner has not done much research on her unfortunately. They show Rose with the maiden name of Bridson rather than Byrne. They have searched a little and found a Rose Bridson born 1889 on the IOM and grabbed on to that.

Possible marriage?    https://manxbmd.com/cgi-bin/db.cgi though can t find a corresponding Kneen groom.

Cathy

Possibly married William Henry Bridson 1958 (same ref?)
1968  marriage Rose Bridson , same ref? Thomas Henry Kneen.


I think Cathy's details are likely the ones you have to focus on for now. Would be good for you to check both marriages and confirm the details for Rose from these. Her father's name would be a good start for you to follow up on I suggest.

There is a small family tree for a daughter to a Rose Byrne. Daughter died in Dublin. Is this your mother? If it is your mum, was there anything to help you establish more details for Rose from the birth registration (in Wandsworth?)? Did your mum live her early years with Rose and keep in touch with her?

Did your mum have any photos of Rose to help you compare with the photo on the family tree of Rose in her later years?

Rose's roots may well lie in Ireland.

Monica



Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 10 October 21 15:03 BST (UK)
A clip from the gravestone for Thomas and Rose. The other half of the stone is a memorial for Thomas's first wife, Elsie:



Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Marty2021 on Tuesday 12 October 21 11:03 BST (UK)

According to Family Search Rose was buried on 12 March 1985 at Castletown, Isle of Man.  Her birth year is given as 1919.


These details match the gravestone inscription I mentioned from that family tree. She died on 6 March and was buried on 12 March 1985 as mentioned by GG. From what GG mentioned, she would have been aged 66 or so at her time of death.

I think the tree mentioned in correct in other respects but not so Rose  :-\ I would suggest tree owner has not done much research on her unfortunately. They show Rose with the maiden name of Bridson rather than Byrne. They have searched a little and found a Rose Bridson born 1889 on the IOM and grabbed on to that.

Possible marriage?    https://manxbmd.com/cgi-bin/db.cgi though can t find a corresponding Kneen groom.

Cathy

Possibly married William Henry Bridson 1958 (same ref?)
1968  marriage Rose Bridson , same ref? Thomas Henry Kneen.


I think Cathy's details are likely the ones you have to focus on for now. Would be good for you to check both marriages and confirm the details for Rose from these. Her father's name would be a good start for you to follow up on I suggest.

There is a small family tree for a daughter to a Rose Byrne. Daughter died in Dublin. Is this your mother? If it is your mum, was there anything to help you establish more details for Rose from the birth registration (in Wandsworth?)? Did your mum live her early years with Rose and keep in touch with her?

Did your mum have any photos of Rose to help you compare with the photo on the family tree of Rose in her later years?

Rose's roots may well lie in Ireland.

Monica
Thanks Monica. She definitely died on the Isle of man, we know that. Born in Dublin but no idea what brought her to the Isle of man. My brother has requested a death cert so that might help.
Where did you see about the small family tree /daughter? I can't seem to find anything.
Kind regards, Martina
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Girl Guide on Tuesday 12 October 21 11:41 BST (UK)
Just to confirm, the image says:-  aetatis 66, i.e. at the age of 66

So that gives a birth year of 1919 depending on when her birthday was.
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 12 October 21 19:16 BST (UK)
Hi Martina

This is the small tree I came across on A/try www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/49121252/person/12960213687/facts  Is it not yours?

This is a useful guide as to what info is contained in Manx BMDs www.manxbmd.com/records.html

You will need to consider ordering one of her marriage certs perhaps to confirm at least her father's name to being to try to trace her family. Her death cert will not give you this unfortunately.

Monica

Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Marty2021 on Tuesday 12 October 21 19:50 BST (UK)
Hi Martina

This is the small tree I came across on A/try www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/49121252/person/12960213687/facts  Is it not yours?

This is a useful guide as to what info is contained in Manx BMDs www.manxbmd.com/records.html

You will need to consider ordering one of her marriage certs perhaps to confirm at least her father's name to being to try to trace her family. Her death cert will not give you this unfortunately.

Monica
Thanks Monica. Yes that's my mother Josephine on that tree, its all correct.
We will try the marriage cert so. I suppose we thought the death cert might lead us to her burial place eventually, or help identify any other relatives.
Kind regards
Martina
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 12 October 21 20:14 BST (UK)
From this, the reference given for the burial is Rushen churchyard 1926 yard reference 777. A photo is included of the gravestone....

On the family tree linked above there is a photo of Rose and Thomas, also a photo and details on Thomas's first wife Elsie Monaghan. She died in 1967, the year before Thomas and Rose married. Thomas and Rose were buried with Elsie. All three are recorded on the gravestone.

Monica

From the info earlier, this looks to be her burial details it seems. What do you think KGarrad?

You have the full picture of the gravestone (including Thomas's first wife's memorial) on the A/try tree linked earlier.

Did your mum have any photos of Rose to compare with the photo on the A/try tree for Rose, wife of Thomas?

Monica
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Marty2021 on Tuesday 12 October 21 20:33 BST (UK)
From this, the reference given for the burial is Rushen churchyard 1926 yard reference 777. A photo is included of the gravestone....

On the family tree linked above there is a photo of Rose and Thomas, also a photo and details on Thomas's first wife Elsie Monaghan. She died in 1967, the year before Thomas and Rose married. Thomas and Rose were buried with Elsie. All three are recorded on the gravestone.

Monica

From the info earlier, this looks to be her burial details it seems. What do you think KGarrad?

You have the full picture of the gravestone (including Thomas's first wife's memorial) on the A/try tree linked earlier.

Did your mum have any photos of Rose to compare with the photo on the A/try tree for Rose, wife of Thomas?

Monica
Yes we have a photo but its from the 60s/70s. Hard to tell. The Rose mentioned on the gravestone, with Elsie, she was born in 1889, which is not correct. Or could details on the Tree have been mixed up? And this gravestone is actually our Grandmother's?
Sorry for all my questions. This is all new to me ???
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 12 October 21 22:04 BST (UK)
I do not think the details on the tree link are correct for Rose. They have her being born on the Isle of Mann in 1889 with a maiden name of Bridson. So, not correct.

I think the tree owner has gone by the marriage registration from 1968 where she did show as Bridson. I am guessing they don't have the original image of the marriage and have not been able to see that she is likely showing as either divorced or widowed and that her maiden name was Byrne. This is a common problem and you should only ever look at others' research as a possible clue, particularly where original key documents are not included.

But now I am guessing as I too have not seen any original documents!

From Cath earlier you have two possible marriages for her, with a Rose Byron showing as marrying a William Henry Bridson in 1958 and then a Rose Bridson marrying a Thomas Kneen in 1968.

You also have the burial details that GG has found which give Rose her correct age (66 in 1985 when she died, ie born c. 1919).The details GG posted were from the burial register. The gravestone details match what has been found so far.

You need now to really get some original documents to help you confirm and verify  :)

I think you are on the right trail to find out about Rose's later years. Her marriages will hopefully give you details to be able to identify her parents and siblings back in Ireland (you think she was originally from Dublin herself?).

Monica

Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 14 October 21 14:56 BST (UK)
I haven't forgotten you!

Manx Museum have no info, as it's too recent.
Contacted Bereavement Services (Douglas) - they have no records of Rose.
Now trying Bereavement Services in Castletown.

If no joy there, I will drive down to Kirk Rushen (on outskirts of Port St Mary) as the sexton was very helpful the last time I had a question.

I'll post an update as and when I get info.
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 14 October 21 14:58 BST (UK)
I do not think the details on the tree link are correct for Rose. They have her being born on the Isle of Mann in 1889 with a maiden name of Bridson. So, not correct.

Monica

Kneen and Bridson are 2 very common Manx surnames - very easy to get confused!
N.B. Bridson is pronounced "Bride-son". ;)
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Marty2021 on Thursday 14 October 21 21:16 BST (UK)
I haven't forgotten you!

Manx Museum have no info, as it's too recent.
Contacted Bereavement Services (Douglas) - they have no records of Rose.
Now trying Bereavement Services in Castletown.

If no joy there, I will drive down to Kirk Rushen (on outskirts of Port St Mary) as the sexton was very helpful the last time I had a question.

I'll post an update as and when I get info.
Thank you so much.
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: KGarrad on Friday 15 October 21 13:29 BST (UK)
As usual, the sexton was very helpful!
Rose is buried in the 1926 Yard at Rushen Cemetery; plot no 777.
This is a family plot.
The gravestone needs cleaning - something that Rushen Commissioners can arrange.

I have taken photos of the grave, close-ups of the 2 gravestones, and the MI transcription from the Manx Museum Library.

If you could send a PM with your email address, I will forward on the photos.
They are all more than 500kb.

But the MI Transcription is small enough.
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: KGarrad on Friday 15 October 21 16:05 BST (UK)
The other stone in the large family plot is numbered 776.
Francis & Mary Monaghan; also James & Eleanor, son & daughter of the above.

Elsie Monaghan married Thomas Henry Kneen in 1937; Roman Catholic marriage.
I assume parents of Rose?
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: MonicaL on Friday 15 October 21 19:40 BST (UK)
I think you meant Elsie's parents.

On the family tree previously mentioned, Elsie's father is showing as Frank. No mother's name given for Elsie but guessing the name Frank may have come from Thomas and Elsie's 1937 marriage?

That fits well, KGarrad  :)

Monica
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: KGarrad on Friday 15 October 21 20:48 BST (UK)
Oops! Yes I did mean Elsie's parents

There is a death in 1911 for a James Monaghan, age 22.
Also a death in 1945 for Eleanor, age 37.

Manx Museum don't hold much in the way of Catholic records :(
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: Marty2021 on Friday 12 November 21 22:08 GMT (UK)
Hello, just a quick check in to thank you all for your help with my search. Thanks to you we have located my grandmother's grave and will visit the IOM next year to visit in person. After requesting a marriage and death cert we now have a insight into her life too. The death cert has my mother's details so it is definitely a match. Thank you all.
Title: Re: Searching Rose Kneen nee Byrne Isle of Man
Post by: MonicaL on Friday 12 November 21 22:38 GMT (UK)
That is great news  :) Thank you for coming back and letting us know.

Enjoy all the new discoveries.

Monica