RootsChat.Com

Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: StephenA6 on Thursday 14 October 21 15:53 BST (UK)

Title: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: StephenA6 on Thursday 14 October 21 15:53 BST (UK)
Hi all

I have just come across a Board of Supervision record which indicates my 2xg grandmother applied for access to the Old Monkland poorhouse in 1872/3.

Hoping to now track down the poor law record ... does anyone know if the Old Monkland registers survived and if so where they are now held ?

Alternatively are there any other sources people would recommend for Old Monkland (E.g. parish records) which could help shine a light.

TIA 
Title: Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: Rena on Thursday 14 October 21 17:51 BST (UK)
I found this online baptism database extremely helpful. It gives information of baptisms, parents and places of work (eg. Clyde Ironworks) prior to Old Monkland having its own Presbyterian kirk.

https://www.glasgowfamilyhistory.org.uk/ExploreRecords/Pages/Online-resources.aspx

"An index to the baptismal registers of St Andrew’s by the Green Episcopal Church, Glasgow, 1800-1854.  (Earlier  volumes survive which are not included in this index).​"
Title: Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 14 October 21 19:05 BST (UK)
I found this online baptism database extremely helpful. It gives information of baptisms, parents and places of work (eg. Clyde Ironworks) prior to Old Monkland having its own Presbyterian kirk.
Someone must have got confused somewhere along the line.

The Church of Scotland has been a Presbyterian denomination since 1638 and the C of S baptism registers in the Parish of Old Monkland start in 1695. These registers are among those available on Scotland's People.

So the (Presbyterian) C of S has been the dominant church in Scotland, and in Old Monkland in particular, for the best part of 400 years.

The Clyde Ironworks were established in 1786, long after Old Monkland Parish Kirk became Presbyterian.

Title: Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: Rena on Thursday 14 October 21 20:21 BST (UK)
I found this online baptism database extremely helpful. It gives information of baptisms, parents and places of work (eg. Clyde Ironworks) prior to Old Monkland having its own Presbyterian kirk.
Someone must have got confused somewhere along the line.

The Church of Scotland has been a Presbyterian denomination since 1638 and the C of S baptism registers in the Parish of Old Monkland start in 1695. These registers are among those available on Scotland's People.

So the (Presbyterian) C of S has been the dominant church in Scotland, and in Old Monkland in particular, for the best part of 400 years.

The Clyde Ironworks were established in 1786, long after Old Monkland Parish Kirk became Presbyterian.

For those who don't have very deep pockets - the free online baptisms supplied by Glasgow FHS is very welcome.   Actually, I was rather surprised to find some my famiy mentioned, but the address of "The Green"  gave me a clue as to how and where my gt.grandparents could have met.
Title: Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 14 October 21 21:06 BST (UK)
Yes, they are very useful. From the ones I have looked, they seem to be from churches other than the mainstream Church of Scotland - assorted Episcopal, Free and Dissenting denominations.

I was merely pointing out that there was a Presbyterian Kirk in Old Monkland long before the dates of any of these baptisms.

Some people have the idea that 'The Presbyterian Church' is or was a specific denomination. It isn't. It is a system of church hierarchy adopted first by the Church of Scotland in the 17th century and later also by the many denominations that split off from the Church of Scotland.
Title: Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: StephenA6 on Thursday 14 October 21 21:49 BST (UK)
Thank both.

any view on whether the Old Monklands poor records have survived and where they might be ?
Title: Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 14 October 21 22:36 BST (UK)
North Lanarkshire Archives https://culturenl.co.uk/museums/archives-and-local-history-museums/north-lanarkshire-archives/ is your first port of call.
Title: Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: Rena on Thursday 14 October 21 23:09 BST (UK)
Yes, they are very useful. From the ones I have looked, they seem to be from churches other than the mainstream Church of Scotland - assorted Episcopal, Free and Dissenting denominations.

I was merely pointing out that there was a Presbyterian Kirk in Old Monkland long before the dates of any of these baptisms.

Some people have the idea that 'The Presbyterian Church' is or was a specific denomination. It isn't. It is a system of church hierarchy adopted first by the Church of Scotland in the 17th century and later also by the many denominations that split off from the Church of Scotland.

I partly guessed that was the reason you took time to post your comments, which was very kind of you.    As an aside, I was glad to be able to look through the list of baptisms because it cleared up a query about the first child of one John Crum family, plus had a surprising number of military couples with head of household called  John Crum who may or may not be directly related to my John Crum, stationer of Glasgow..   I don't have them on my tree, but at least I now know where their records are.

My Mckenzie relatives  used the Old Tollcross church, which is not now standing and it's kirkyard seems to have been overlooked.  I say that because I've twice enquired of a couple of councils plus the Mitchel Library and was told the family burials were too early to be in the "Monkland" cemetery.  The fact is that the Tollcross kirk graveyard is within the Old Monkland cemetery.  The late, lovely, ApAnderson unexpectedly came across a couple of my Mckenzie headstones in the graveyard but I think there could be at least one other for an Allan Mckenzie (who also lived on the Clyde Ironworks estate).

Title: Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 15 October 21 10:46 BST (UK)
I've twice enquired of a couple of councils plus the Mitchel Library and was told the family burials were too early to be in the "Monkland" cemetery.
Old Monkland Parish Kirk dates from 1790 and has its own kirkyard. Next to it is the enormous Old Monkland Cemetery which was opened in 1875.

Compare https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=55.84558&lon=-4.05374&layers=5&b=1&marker=55.84284,-4.17223 (1859) with https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=55.84558&lon=-4.05374&layers=6&b=1&marker=55.84284,-4.17223 (1897).

In the panel to the left of the map is a blue button. Slide this to the left to see how the cemetery has expanded since 1897.

See also https://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/directory/cemeteries/old-monkland-cemetery

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/138405 shows Old Monkland Parish Kirk and part of the kirkyard.

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/6409658 shows the cemetery as it is now.

Quote
The fact is that the Tollcross kirk graveyard is within the Old Monkland cemetery.
That does surprise me, because Tollcross is three or four miles west of Old Monkland Cemetery. It is in the parish of Barony, not the parish of Old Monkland, and is now in the City of Glasgow whereas Old Monkland Cemetery is in North Lanarkshire.

There is more than one surviving kirk at Tollcross, the oldest being Tollcross Central https://canmore.org.uk/site/164917/glasgow-1088-tollcross-road-tollcross-central-church. There is a burial ground next to this kirk. Of course this is not the only Tollcross in Scotland, and it's always possible that there was another Tollcross in the parish of Old Monkland, though so far I haven't found it on any maps.

This map https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400128 shows the parish boundaries as in 1832. I don't know if it will open for you as the full map, but I have zoomed in and can see Tollcross at upper left and Old Monkland Parish Kirk at lower right of my zoomed-in view, and the Old Monkland/Barony parish boundary (yellow on the O/M side, orange on the Barony side) between them.

See also http://parkheadhistory.com/surrounding-areas/tollcross/tollcross-burying-ground/ and http://parkheadhistory.com/surrounding-areas/tollcross/the-old-historic-church-of-tollcross-and-tollcross-district/
Title: Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: Rena on Friday 15 October 21 12:17 BST (UK)

Compare https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=55.84558&lon=-4.05374&layers=5&b=1&marker=55.84284,-4.17223 (1859) with https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=55.84558&lon=-4.05374&layers=6&b=1&marker=55.84284,-4.17223 (1897).

============

I'm pretty sure my Clyde Iron Works ancestors are buried in the Corbett Street Cemetery. One headstone (Ken McK) is against the wall that separates the old church graveyard from the rest of the cemetery and the other known headstone (Ken's parents & grandparents Donald Mcks) is opposite that one.
Title: Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 15 October 21 12:24 BST (UK)
I'm pretty sure my Clyde Iron Works ancestors are buried in the Corbett Street Cemetery. One headstone (Ken McK) is against the wall that separates the old church graveyard from the rest of the cemetery and the other known headstone (Ken's parents & grandparents Donald Mcks) is opposite that one.
Ah. That's the Tollcross cemetery, not the Old Monkland one.

It comes under the City of Glasgow. See https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=37573&p=0 so the older burial records there are probably on microfilm in the Mitchell Library.
Title: Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: Rockford on Friday 15 October 21 16:01 BST (UK)
Hi all

....

Hoping to now track down the poor law record ... does anyone know if the Old Monkland registers survived and if so where they are now held ?

....

Hello,

The North Lanarkshire Poor Law Applications and Registers, 1849-1917 are available through Ancestry - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61702/ - if you give me your gg grandmother's name, I'm happy to have a look to see if there is a record for her.

Best wishes

Rockford


Title: Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
Post by: StephenA6 on Friday 15 October 21 23:42 BST (UK)

Hello,

The North Lanarkshire Poor Law Applications and Registers, 1849-1917 are available through Ancestry - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61702/ - if you give me your gg grandmother's name, I'm happy to have a look to see if there is a record for her.

Best wishes

Rockford




Thank you for the offer Rockford. Thats very kind.

I already have an Ancestry subscription though and unfortunately the online poor law records for North Lanarkshire on there don't include Old Monkland.

The reason for this seems to be that the poor law records for Old Monkland were originally held by Glasgow Council and housed in the Mitchell Library. The records have now been transferred to NLC and can be viewed in the Motherwell museum, but this happened after the records were digitised for Ancestry .

Sadly I also understand not many of the poor law records from Old Monkland have survived.

Planning a visit to the Motherwell museum in the next few weeks so fingers crossed.