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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Thursday 14 October 21 17:18 BST (UK)

Title: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Thursday 14 October 21 17:18 BST (UK)
Hi, Everyone,
I'm struggling to piece together details of the BUTCHER family who inhabited the Sandy area from at least 1841 through to 1871.  I have not yet come across a marriage (no date, but  suggested on Ancestry Public Trees) for a John BUTCHER, b.c 1794 and a Mary/Marie/Maria HEEP.  They apparently began having children in 1824, but the only possible looking marriage that might fit is one at St Mary's Aldersgate, London on 11th Feb 1823 - which seems rather far from home -  between a John BUTCHER  and a Mary KEEP (sic).
I believe John's wife Mary dies in 1851, and in that Census in Sandy John is noted down as a widower with Emma, Joseph and Samuel as his children, and in the 1861 with just Joseph and Samuel at home still with him.
If anyone can discover a more realistic marriage, I'd be very happy to hear about it!
Many thanks,
Keith
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: QueenoftheWest on Thursday 14 October 21 17:41 BST (UK)
Samuel's birth registration:

BUTCHER, SAM       HEEP 
GRO Reference: 1839  D Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 06  Page 62

Unfortunately, I can't find one for Joseph, which could be useful for comparison of the surname.

Queenie  :)
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: QueenoftheWest on Thursday 14 October 21 17:58 BST (UK)
Mary's death:     

BUTCHER, MARY       43 
GRO Reference: 1842  J Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 06  Page 45

She was buried in Sandy on 16th June 1842. On her burial record, she is listed as 44.

Queenie  :)
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: QueenoftheWest on Thursday 14 October 21 18:13 BST (UK)
I think I've just found something very interesting!

I was looking for Keeps in Sandy (I couldn't find any Heeps) and I found this record:

Joseph Keep, buried 5th February 1832, aged 60 (born c.1772), in Sandy, Bedfordshire.

John & Mary had a son called Joseph, so I wondered whether it could be a relative.

Then I found his entry in the death duty registers:

Testator: Joseph Keep, Executor: John Butcher!

Is this her father?

Queenie  :)
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: QueenoftheWest on Thursday 14 October 21 18:19 BST (UK)
I can only find 1 Mary born to a Joseph Keep in the right time period:

Mary, daughter of Joseph & Mary Keep, baptised 7 Oct 1798 in Westminster, London.

Queenie  :)
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Thursday 14 October 21 18:21 BST (UK)
Queenie,
Thanks so much for that.  I imagine that Joseph's birth was perhaps before general registration started in September quarter 1837.  But I was completely wrong about his mother Mary's date of death.  Hence no further children born after 1839, then...and HEEP seems to be the correct spelling of her surname, too.
Keith
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Thursday 14 October 21 18:26 BST (UK)
Ah, posts crossed there, Queenie,
I wonder whether there is still the possibility that the 1823 marriage is in fact theirs, and something has been lost in a transcription somewhere.  I cannot find the couple and their family in the Sandy area in the 1841 Census, which might say whether Mary was born out of County, ie. not in Bedfordshire...
Keith
...and I've only just seen your previous message, too, the even more fascinating details that might point towards KEEP being more accurate than HEEP as a surname for John BUTCHER's wife.
Lots to ponder and chew over here!

Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: ColC on Thursday 14 October 21 18:29 BST (UK)
Jn BUTCHER   Baptism   10 Dec 1794   Bedfordshire   Sandy : St Swithin : Other Transcript

Parents Sam & Lucy (Freereg)

Colin
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: QueenoftheWest on Thursday 14 October 21 18:31 BST (UK)
Happy to help  ;D

Interestingly, there is a Joseph Keep baptised in Biggleswade, Bedfordshire in 1773 to William & Mary Keep. Also, a marriage between a Joseph Keep and Mary Armitage in Bedford in 1797 (the year before Mary was born). Did the Keep family move to London and then move back to Bedfordshire at a later stage? Is that why John and Mary married in London?

In 1841, Mary is listed as born in Bedfordshire, but it looks like her family was from there, even though she herself may not have been born there.

Do you have Ancestry? https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8978/images/BDFHO107_1_2-0536?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.189765035.1854342728.1634229201-496577236.1634229201&pId=14143

All theory at this stage, but I am certain Mary was a Keep, as she was listed on the 1823 marriage record. I think Sam's birth certificate is a mistranscription.

Queenie  :)
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: ColC on Thursday 14 October 21 18:32 BST (UK)
Lucy CLARKE to Sam BUTCHER   Marriage   12 Nov 1780   Bedfordshire   Biggleswade :
St Andrew : Other Transcript - no detail

Colin
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: ColC on Thursday 14 October 21 18:39 BST (UK)
Other children of Sam a Labourer & Lucy
Lucy BUTCHER   Baptism   18 Mar 1781   Bedfordshire   Biggleswade : St Andrew

Sandy : St Swithin Bedfordshire
Wm BUTCHER   Baptism   9 Jun 1784
Lucy BUTCHER   Baptism   4 May 1787
Eliz BUTCHER   Baptism   23 Oct 1788
Ann BUTCHER   Baptism   16 Oct 1791
Chas BUTCHER   Baptism   22 Apr 1793

Colin
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: ColC on Thursday 14 October 21 18:43 BST (UK)
Burials Sandy : St Swithin, all noted as children of Sam

Lucy BUTCHER      17 Sep 1784   

BUTCHER   Burial   14 Nov 1784 (Unbaptised)   

Wm BUTCHER   Burial   1 Mar 1800   

Colin
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: cuffie81 on Thursday 14 October 21 20:06 BST (UK)
Lucy CLARKE to Sam BUTCHER   Marriage   12 Nov 1780   Bedfordshire   Biggleswade :
St Andrew : Other Transcript - no detail

Samuel, of Upper Stondon.
Lucy, minor.
consent of her father
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Thursday 14 October 21 23:22 BST (UK)
Queenie,
Thank you so much for investigating further into this BUTCHER family.  And I think the evidence you have brought up points more and more to a mistranscription of HEEP for KEEP.  (Was almost expecting the family member Uriah to turn up!).  And also that the 1823 marriage in London is very possibly/probably of significant relevance.
And thank you both, Colin and Cuffie81 for your own further valuable contributions.  The BUTCHER picture has been greatly clarified for me by you all today...
Keith
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Friday 15 October 21 01:17 BST (UK)
...and I've just come across another piece of fascinating evidence...
In the Bedfordshire Archives Services online there is an article about Baptists In Sandy.  Apparently in 1813 the house of a Joseph KEEP, amongst others, was registered as a Nonconformist meeting place.  I wonder if his Nonconformist faith had anything to do with the KEEP family moving to London for a while?
Wasn't it somewhere near Aldersgate where the Wesleys first began their Methodist movement?  All rather wild speculation, but at least the name Joseph KEEP appears in Sandy at about the right time...
Keith
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 15 October 21 06:51 BST (UK)
Ancestry England
Census 1851     Girford  Sandy Bedfordshire
BALDWIN Betsey             head             62y  married          b. Sandy, Bedfordshire
UNDERWOOD Richard      son in law     36y   ag. labourer   b. Sandy, Bedfordshire
UNDERWOOD Nan*         dau              31y   dressmaker    b. Northill, Bedfordshire
UNDERWOOD Susannah   dau                8y                       b. Sandy, Bedfordshire
UNDERWOOD Maria         dau                7y                       b. Sandy, Bedfordshire
UNDERWOOD William       son                4y                       b. Sandy, Bedfordshire
UNDERWOOD George       son                2y                       b. Sandy, Bedfordshire
BUTCHER       John           lodger   wid.  garden ***  58y    b. Sandy, Bedfordshire
BUTCHER       Emma        dau                16y  charwoman   b. Sandy, Bedfordshire
BUTCHER       Joseph       son                 14y rail servant    b. Sandy, Bedfordshire
BUTCHER       Sam          son                 12y gar. lab.         b. Sandy, Bedfordshire

(Nan*...I read this to be Ann)

Census 1861   Downham, Cambridgeshire
BALDWIN       William          56y  head  gardener        b. Sandy, Bedfordshire
BALDWIN       Elizth            74y   wife                        b. Sandy, Bedfordshire
UNDERWOOD Susannah      19y  g.dau                      b. Sandy, Bedfordshire
UNDERWOOD William Gray  14y  g.son                      b. Sandy, Bedfordshire           
UNDERWOOD E. Ann            3y  g. dau                      b. Sandy, Bedfordshire

Freebdm  DecQ 1842  Biggleswade  Vol 6 pg119
BUTCHER Ann   marr.  UNDERWOOD Richard

Who is grandmother Betsey/Elizabeth BALDWIN?.  What was her name before she married William BALDWIN?
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Friday 15 October 21 08:04 BST (UK)
Wivenhoe,
Thanks so much for this, I must say that I hadn't quite noticed that the widowerJohn BUTCHER was lodging with the BALDWIN/UNDERWOOD family in Girtford Village, Sandy in the 1851 Census with three of his children.  Quite a large household therefore.
And I'm not sure about the family connections here, and also the age difference of 18 years between Elizabeth and William BALDING in that 1861 Census in Downham, Cambs is rather odd.  Very interesting to see that BUTCHER/UNDERWOOD marriage, though...
Keith
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Friday 15 October 21 08:16 BST (UK)
Wivenhoe,
It could well be that the Betsey/Elizabeth individual was the Elizabeth BUTCHER, daughter of Samuel BUTCHER and Lucy CLARKE, bapt. 23-10-1788. Mentioned earlier in this thread.  And therefore she was an elder sister to John BUTCHER, bapt. 10-12-1794.   Her marriage to a Mr BALDWIN must occur somewhere...
Keith
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: ColC on Friday 15 October 21 09:57 BST (UK)
William on 1861 census?

Wm BALDWIN   Baptism   22 Jul 1805   Bedfordshire   Sandy : St Swithin : Other Transcript

Parents Edw Baldwin & Eliz.

Colin
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: ColC on Friday 15 October 21 10:09 BST (UK)
Eliz FAGE to Edw BALDWIN   Marriage   31 Jul 1796   Bedfordshire   Sandy : St Swithin

Edw & Eliz also had 4 more children in Sandy 1798 & 1810.
Second son Jn 1800 died 1801 & Edw a Labourer was buried 19 Apr 1812, I presume husband of Eliz?.

So I guess not Elizabeth Butcher 1788.

Colin
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Friday 15 October 21 10:14 BST (UK)
Colin,
Thanks for continuing to search and probe!  And yes, that 1796 marriage a generation too early to fit the possible one we are looking for...
Keith
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: johnP-bedford on Friday 15 October 21 10:23 BST (UK)
William Baldwin bachelor married Elizabeth Butcher spinster at Sandy on 21 Oct 1832

Baptism at Sandy of William Baldwin on 22 July 1805, son of Edward & Elizabeth Baldwin
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Friday 15 October 21 10:59 BST (UK)
Hi again, johnP-bedford,
Ah, there it is, the very wedding we were looking for.  Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble.  Another piece of the jigsaw neatly fitted into place...and thanks also for putting William BALDWIN's first rite of passage into the equation.  So it does look indeed as though there was a 17 year gap difference between bride and groom.  Isn't it rather unusual that the wife is that much older than her husband on marriage?  Usually if there's a large age gap it's the wife who is the younger individual.  I need to look back over this whole thread and see whether the narrative still holds together now...
Keith
...the blushing bride 2 days short of her 44th birthday...
Title: Re: BUTCHER family of Sandy, 18th-19thC. John BUTCHER/Mary HEEP/KEEP marriage 1823?
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Friday 15 October 21 11:11 BST (UK)
I'm beginning to wonder if the Ann UNDERWOOD  who appears with her husband and young family in that 1851 Census entry in Sandy, and who marries Richard UNDERWOOD in 1842 is actually Ann BUTCHER,  the daughter of Elizabeth BUTCHER b. 1788.  Born perhaps illegitimately to another father before mother Elizabeth gets married in 1832.  In that 1851 Census she is described as "daughter" to head of household Elizabeth, and aged 31, so born in about 1819/1820.  In Northill.  Must look that up on the map...
Keith