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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Champman on Sunday 24 October 21 18:09 BST (UK)

Title: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Champman on Sunday 24 October 21 18:09 BST (UK)
Attached is a birth/baptism search extract taken from another family tree on Ancestry.
I would like to search these but do not know how to.
Any help and links would be much appreciated.

copyright image removed
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Rena on Sunday 24 October 21 18:24 BST (UK)
The official website for all Scottish birth, marriages and deaths plus census is :-

www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

This website had all the details of the Catholic ceremonies in my tree,  plus the one you listed is also on this website.
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: GR2 on Sunday 24 October 21 18:27 BST (UK)
You will find them on ScotlandsPeople:

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

You register and it allows you to search the indexes and see a range of Scottish records. To see and download the actual entry in the register costs 6 credits (1.50). I clicked on "Advanced People Search", then "Church Registers", "Births and Baptisms", then clicked on "Roman Catholic" in the choice of churches, entered "Agnes Priestley" and 1853, but nothing came up. I then clicked the "Fuzzy" option beside Priestley, which brings up alternative spellings. There she was. The details visible, without paying to see the original record, were parents' names, date of birth and baptism and the name of the church (All as in your attachment). Obviously looking at the original entry might give you the names of witnesses, the father's occupation, family residence etc.
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 24 October 21 19:31 BST (UK)
The other thing to note when using SP is that you can use the symbol * as a wildcard. Often helpful with all the spelling variations you find.

Searching this family with the parents' names you have, there looks to be at least 10 entries for their children. I searched for:

RC Baptisms (as explained by GR)

Surname pr*st*l*

Dates 1835 - 1865.

Father shows as either Patrick or Peter (a common first name variant), Latin versions of this as does Margaret. Numerous spellings for her surname.

Monica
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Champman on Sunday 31 October 21 01:00 BST (UK)
Thank you Rena, GR2 and MonicaL. 
I followed your instructions and was successful. The 1851 Census records shows that the bride and groom were born in Ireland.
Searching Catholic marriages I have now identified the marriage of Agnes's parents Peter/Patrick Priestley and Margaret Loan/Loane in the RC Church in Newton Stewart 26 November 1835.

The three images below are the Parish Records of the marriage.  They appear to identify both sets of parents but are written in Latin so I am unsure who is who - parents or witnesses.

Any help translating would be appreciated.

Many thanks
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Maiden Stone on Sunday 31 October 21 01:30 BST (UK)
First image.
Marriage was by banns. (I couldn't see/read beginning of top line.)
Patrick Priestley son of Thaddeus Priestley & Alice Horan
Margaret Loane daughter of Jacobus (James) Loane & Catherine Corron
Both living in the parish (I can't translate first word on last line. It looks like "_ectoriensi"; I can't make out first letter.)
Witnesses Edward Loane, Hannah Maccaffrey
Married by Richard Sinnott

Thaddeus may have been a Latin version of Timothy or Thomas or he may have been called Thady or similar.
Corron surname might turn up in other records as Curran or even Kirwin.
Horan was one of the commonest surnames in my grandad's Mayo parish.

It's beautiful handwriting.

Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Maiden Stone on Sunday 31 October 21 01:30 GMT (UK)
Second extract. Is it a separate document or is it part of the first? Having read it, it seems to me it belongs at the start of extract 1 and may explain why I couldn't see beginning of first extract.
Most of the words are place and date.
At Newton Stewart , twenty sixth day of month of November, year eighteenth hundred & thirty fifth
Final 3 words are facta primis solon. Ending of "solon" might be missing or the ending may be the first letters on top line of extract 1. It makes more sense to me if it belongs to extract 1. Latin word solor may translate as "relieve or ease". If I'm correct, the last 3 words of extract 2 and the first few words of extract 1 are about easing the usual requirement to have banns published on 3 Sundays. In other words a dispensation of banns. Newton Stewart probably didn't have a resident priest in 1835 and there may not have been regular Sunday masses and therefore few opportunities to read banns.

By the way, RootsChat has strict rules regarding copyright. The image in your opening post is from Ancestry and is copyright. Information about copyright can be found via "Help" tab.   
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: GR2 on Sunday 31 October 21 05:07 GMT (UK)
The second extract is the beginning of the first - perhaps the end of one page. The word that is split is solemni: facta prius solemni bannorum denuntiatione (the solemn publication of banns having been previously made).
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Maiden Stone on Sunday 31 October 21 18:26 GMT (UK)
Thanks GR2 for confirming my conclusion that extract 2 should be extract 1. It makes perfect sense now. I incorrectly deciphered "prius" as primis and letters e and m in "solemni" as o and n.
Can you read the word on the last line of extract 1 before "habitantes"?
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 31 October 21 21:37 GMT (UK)
Attached is a birth/baptism search extract taken from another family tree on Ancestry.


With access to A/try family trees, you would have seen the various trees for siblings for Margaret Loan, children to James Loan and Catherine Corron?

The whole Loan family seem to have come over to Scotland (Wigtown area). Likely entry for parents in Wigtown in 1841 with a grandchild?

James Loan 70 farmer b. Ireland
Catherine Loan 70 b. Ireland
Catherine Loan 9 b. Ireland

Monica
   
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: GR2 on Sunday 31 October 21 21:39 GMT (UK)
Vectoniensis is a form of what I have seen in the 17th century as Victonensis = the adjective "of Wigton".

Both living in the parish of Wigton.
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 01 November 21 00:07 GMT (UK)

With access to A/try family trees, you would have seen the various trees for siblings for Margaret Loan, children to James Loan and Catherine Corron?

The whole Loan family seem to have come over to Scotland (Wigtown area). Likely entry for parents in Wigtown in 1841 with a grandchild?

James Loan 70 farmer b. Ireland
Catherine Loan 70 b. Ireland
Catherine Loan 9 b. Ireland


Loan/e baptisms at Newton Stewart began 1829. There were 3 Loane marriages in the parish in 1830s, including Margaret. Possible variant spellings Loune, Lowne, Logne, Loyne.
Corron first appeared in Newton Stewart baptism register in 1828.  Corron baptisms averaged 1 per  year in 1830s. There were Curran/Curren baptisms after 1847.

Congregational records exist for Our Lady & St. Ninian, Newton Stewart. Some may be lists of Easter communicants since the same names were recorded in consecutive years. Transcribed & indexed on FindMyPast. Don't enter full forename when searching this record set. Abbreviations of Latin versions of forenames were used in the early records. Often 3 letters. These might be first 3 letters or initial letter + last 2 letters or perhaps another combination of letters. (Like playing "Countdown"! "Give me a P please." ;D) Examples, "Jac" (Jacobus = James); "Jo" (probably John but may be Joseph); "Cna" (presumably Caterina =Catherine); "Mta" (presumably Margaretta); "Hah" (Hannah? )  Pat Priestley occurs in a consecutive run of years. "Mta" (Margaret?) was in only some of those years. Her missing years coincide with Priestley baptisms, so she was probably staying home being pregnant or caring for baby. 
 
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Champman on Monday 01 November 21 00:59 GMT (UK)
Many thanks Maiden Stone and GR2.  My fault, I should have uploaded the three scans in the correct order.  I take note of the copyright issue and will just upload the text in question in future.  Your knowledge of Latin is indeed impressive.

This marriage record opens up the identity of the previous generation.  Having identified Margaret Loane's parents James Loane and Catherine Corron in the 1841 Census this also identifies Margaret's younger sister Catherine Loan (born 1832 in Ireland).  And searching the RC marriage records identifies her elder brother William Loane (1811) and his wife Anne Dunlop and children.  I have assumed her witness Edward Loane (approx 1825) is another older brother.

Returning to my original 24 October scan (since removed).  This was obviously not from a Scotlandspeople search but probably taken directly from the Scottish Catholic Archive.  How is it possible to directly search this Archive?  Any ideas?

Thanks  Alan
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 01 November 21 03:44 GMT (UK)

Returning to my original 24 October scan (since removed).  This was obviously not from a Scotlandspeople search but probably taken directly from the Scottish Catholic Archive.  How is it possible to directly search this Archive?

Catholic registers are on Scotland's People, as others have said.
Scotland's People Guide to Church Registers
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/church-registers
It has a link to National Records of Scotland guide to Catholic parish registers
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/catholic-parish-registers
These guides explain the various records.
Some are also on Find My Past.
You're fortunate with the Newton Stewart marriage register. Names of both parents. Neat handwriting.
There was a Catholic church in Dumfries a couple of decades before Newton Stewart. When the R.C. Diocese of Galloway was formed, the cathedral was at Dumfries. Catholics in Ayr met in a pub 200 years ago until they had a church built. Early Catholics in Newton Stewart may gathered for services in a building which wasn't a church. One priest may have ministered to a whole county.
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 01 November 21 21:33 GMT (UK)

James Loan 70 farmer b. Ireland
Catherine Loan 70 b. Ireland
Catherine Loan 9 b. Ireland


I would suggest that Catherine is likely a granddaughter rather than daughter to James and Catherine.

Monica
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 02 November 21 00:14 GMT (UK)

 Having identified Margaret Loane's parents James Loane and Catherine Corron in the 1841 Census this also identifies Margaret's younger sister Catherine Loan (born 1832 in Ireland).  And searching the RC marriage records identifies her elder brother William Loane (1811) and his wife Anne Dunlop and children.  I have assumed her witness Edward Loane (approx 1825) is another older brother.

Do you mean Catherine Loan who was with James & Catherine on 1841 census? Relationships weren't shown on 1841 census. I agree with Monica that she was most likely a granddaughter of James. She was too young to have been Catherine Loan's daughter.
Keep in mind that ages of many adults on 1841 are a guide only. Census enumerators were supposed to round ages down to a multiple of 5 although they didn't all follow that instruction. So if you estimated William's birth year from 1841 census, he may have been 30-34, or he may have been younger or older if he didn't know his exact age.
Where does a birth year of 1825 come from for Edward ? That would make him younger than Margaret. It would also make him too young to have been Margaret's brother, if both his age and Margaret's mother's ages were accurate. Calculating ages from 1851 census should give a better indication of birth year.   
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Champman on Sunday 07 November 21 17:19 GMT (UK)
Re: MonicaL of 01 Nov:

Many thanks for your reply and my apologies for the delay in replying.

I am inclined to agree with you that Margaret Loane (from the 1841 Census) is probably the grandchild of James Loane and Catherine Corron.  Similarly Edward Loane was a guesstimate of position and age to elicit the search algorithms to turn something up.  There is no record of any in the 1851 or subsequent BMD or census records so they may well have returned to Ireland so will keep a watching brief.

Another conundrum surrounds Mary Marks (see attached 1884 marriage extract).  Firstly the 1891 census gives her birth as 'Garliestown, Wigtownshire' whilst the 1901 census as 'England'.  Although born in 1856 I can find no birth or any earlier record than her 1884 marriage nor any record at all of her parents Robert Marks or Jessie Hutton.  Another arrival from Ireland perhaps but why the error or deception.

Many thanks
Alan
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 07 November 21 20:02 GMT (UK)
Looking around for Mary but not yet finding anything for her. Garliestown is in the parish of Sorbie. There looks to only be one couple with the surname of Mark/s, a Hugh and wife Elizabeth (Heron).

There is, however, a possible sibling...maybe? A Jessie/Janet Hutton Marks. She married a David Kay in Birkenhead (4th Qrt, 8a/730). Looks to have been a Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended, so nothing for the marriage on the parish registers to help with confirming her father's name. She died, aged 43, early 1899 in Birkenhead area.

The 1881 and 1891 censuses give her birth year c. 1855 in Scotland. www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q272-TQ9K You can also link to the 1891 entry from here.

Monica

Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 07 November 21 20:49 GMT (UK)
Wondering whether Robert Marks, father to Mary, could be connected to this Marks family. From the 1851 census, there is this entry in Garlieston, Sorbie where your Mary stated she was born in one of her census entries:

Hugh Mark 58 garden lab. b. Ireland
Mary Mark 54 b. Sorbie...I think her maiden name was Smith
Ann Mark 17
Mary Mark 12

Address: Cowgate, Garlieston, Sorbie

Likely the Hugh and Elizabeth I mentioned earlier were son and daughter in law to this family?

Monica
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 07 November 21 20:59 GMT (UK)
The 1841 census entry for this family with both a son Robert and son Hugh mentioned www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a158feaf4040b9d6eac422c/hugh-mark-1841-wigtownshire-sorbie-1796-?locale=en

Daughter Isabella, looks like she married in an RC ceremony in Liverpool in 1859 (St Anthony).

Parents' marriage/banns showing on 25 Dec 1826 Sorbie,Wigtown.

This would be son Hugh and family's 1871 census entry www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590672dae9379091b1f4974d/robert-s-mark-1871-wigtownshire-sorbie-1869-?locale=en

Monica
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Champman on Tuesday 09 November 21 17:51 GMT (UK)
In the GRO online births Janet Mark (mother: Hutton) Jun 1854 (Liverpool 8b 147).  She appears to show up on the 1861 Census with her Hutton grandparents James and Mary Hutton in Kirkcudbright which may account for the place of birth discrepancy.

I have not found a baptism record in Liverpool so shall purchase a copy of the birth certificate and see who her parents were and if they tie in with Mary's.

Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 09 November 21 19:55 GMT (UK)
Just some notes from what I have found.

Liverpool does look a good possibility for where Robert Mark and Janet Hutton may have headed off to after their marriage.

There is an 1860 baptism there for a James McCall Mark, father Robert, a painter, and mother Janet.

There is also an 1866 RC baptism for a Maria Anna Mark, parents Robert Mark and mother Janet Hutton.

A burial for Janet?

Janet Mark, aged 50
Death Date: abt 1883
Burial Date: 23 Dec 1883
Burial Place: Liverpool

Monica
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 09 November 21 19:59 GMT (UK)
This may be Janet and son James in 1881:

Janette Mark 45 widow, charwoman b. Scotland
James Mark 20 General Labourer b. Liverpool

Address: 1 In 6 Court Christian St, Liverpool

Monica
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 09 November 21 20:02 GMT (UK)
This looks like Janet's birth details:

Janet Hutton
Birth 30 Sep 1829 Kirkcudbright, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
Father: James Hutton
Mother: Mary Smith

By co-incidence, Robert Mark's mother was also a Mary Smith.

Monica
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 09 November 21 20:13 GMT (UK)
Sorry! I am jumping about with the info  ::)

We have I think Robert Mark in Liverpool for 1851:

Robert Mark, 23, lodger, painter b. Garlustown, Scotland....must be how it sounded as this is from the original. Must be Garlieston, Wigtownshire. Robert showed as single at the time of the census.

Monica
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 09 November 21 20:37 GMT (UK)
A listing of children for Robert and Janet (needing confirmation)

MARK, MARY  SMITH      HUTTON     
GRO Reference: 1852  D Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 185

MARK, JANET        HUTTON     
GRO Reference: 1854  J Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 147

MARK, ROBERT        HUTTON     
GRO Reference: 1857  J Quarter in WEST DERBY  Volume 08B  Page 276

MARK, JAMES        HUTTON     
GRO Reference: 1860  J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK  Volume 08B  Page 302

MARK, ANN        HUTTON     
GRO Reference: 1862  J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK  Volume 08B  Page 382

Can't see an entry for Maria Anna who was baptised on 14 Sept 1866. Could she be Ann b. 1862?

Monica
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 09 November 21 20:52 GMT (UK)
There is a marriage in Liverpool on 25 Feb 1889 for son Robert Marks, a mariner. Father Robert Marks, a painter. Bride a Mary Ellen Mooney.

You have also Mary and sister Janet's marriage details.

Brother James, there is a possible marriage in 1882 in Liverpool. Two brides listed (Margaret Burke of Mary Kerr) so hard to know which one. 1891 has him likely at the Liverpool Workhouse and lodging in 1901.

Monica
Title: Re: The Scottish Catholic Archives - How to search them?
Post by: Champman on Saturday 13 November 21 00:57 GMT (UK)
Thanks again MonicaL

A number of updates to your last two messages:
1)  Maria Anna Hutton (1862):  of the five baptisms all showed the dates of birth and baptism except hers which omitted the DOB.  The parents are Robert and Janet Hutton.
2)  James Mark (1860) did marry Mary Kerr (1861, Tranmere, Cheshire) in 1882 and they had a child Mary Ann Mark (Q3 1883, Liverpool, 8b 74: mother Kerr) - it is possible she married in (Q3 1906 W. Derby 8b 989) either John Sullivan or Alphaeus Frederick Nye.
3)  Janet Hutton (1829 -1883) was identified as the daughter of James Hutton (1796 - 1866) and May Smith (1803 - 1883) of Kirkcudbright. And another family tree on Ancestry shows a further two generations.

So I think we can call this job done and close this post
Once again many thanks for your help and advice
Alan