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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: suzette stratton on Friday 29 October 21 12:44 BST (UK)
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My husband's grandfather Francis Donald Stuart 1877-1961 was born at the Golden Lion Hotel in Stirling to the proprietor Robert Stuart 1834 - and Ann Elizabeth Watt 1835-1950. The 1891 census has the Ann Elizabeth, widow, in Lincoln running the Great Northern Hotel. Can anyone tell me how to find out when this family left Stirling and The Golden Lion?
Question 2. Robert Stuart 1834 had a sister called Jessie Fordyce Stuart 1826-1881. Jessie F Stuart married David Hall in Glasgow 1848 had issue 1850 but was then widowed sometime between 1850 and 1857 when she marries in Australia. Can anyone tell me why the Fordyce in her name? My husband's DNA is linked to this lady on Ancestry.
Question 3. We have inherited an undated (probably 19C) oil painting which has a label on the back "Robert Alexander Stuart - Gentleman - Raigmore". The Stewart/Stuart Society tell me the Mcintoshs lived at Raigmore. Can anyone tell me how I can find out who this gentleman was? :) :)
Thank you
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Hi Suzette
Welcome to RootsChat :)
The Stuart family was still at the Golden Lion on 8 King Street, Stirling on the 1881 census. Showing as Stewart. If you have the option of wildcards, I would search this surname as St*rt.
There is a reference to a Robert Stuart, Tenant of Stables, 8 King Street on the 1885 Valuation Rolls on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk He may have kept the tenancy going on the stables following a move?
Robert died on 1 January 1890 in Lincoln. He is referred to a Hotel Proprietor on his entry on the Probate Calendar index.
A little history on The Golden Lion Hotel here www.thegoldenlionstirling.com/the-hotel/heritage-history/
Monica
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In order to find a possible connection to the surname Fordyce used as a middle name for Jessie, you need to expand on their family group. Very common to use important family surnames (particularly from the maternal line) for next generations. What do you have on Robert and Jessie's early years? Have you been able to confirm their parents' names?
I see from the 1881 Scottish census that two of their children, John and Marion, were born in the London area.
There is a marriage on 30 April 1868 at St Barnabas, Homerton, Hackney, for a Robert Stuart, provisions merchant and son of Robert Stuart, clothier, marrying an Ann Elizabeth Watt, daughter of Robert Watt, merchant. Is this their marriage? Francis's Stirling birth cert should include date and place of parents' marriage to help you confirm.
Monica
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I see that Jessie's death index entry in 1881 in Australia gives her parents' names as Alexander Stuart and Annie Ada.
How have the links been made to show that Robert and Jessie were siblings?
Monica
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Re Robert and Jessie being siblings - they shared common parents Robert Alexander Stuart and Ann McDonald - all records found in Scotland Select Births and Baptisms. Had issue Helen b1823, Elizabeth b.1825, Jessie Fordyce b.1826, John b.1829, Robert b.1834, Alice Fyfe b.1836.
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Hello Monica
Just to confirm. I have definitely identified Francis's parents via his Baptism Certificate which gives date and place of their marriage.
Thank you very much. I really appreciate your response.
Suzette :)
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Hello Monica
Apologies for troubling you again. On Francis Stuart's Baptism Certificate, Robert is referred to as Hotel Proprietor. In this context does Proprietor simply mean Manager as he is referred to as Tennant on the Valuation Rolls.
Suzette
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I think Robert Stuart was the hotel owner of The Golden Lioin. He is referred to in his 1881 census entry as Hotel Keeper & Port Master.
The reference to the 1884 and 1885 Valuation Rolls only mentioned the Stables at the address, not the hotel itself.
Monica
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I take it back. I left the building number off the search on the VRs on Scotlands People. This gives the building no for the hotel as 10 King Street.
Robert Stewart is showing as a Tenant for the hotel listing. The owner in the 1870s was an Alexander Gibb. By 1885, it had passed to William Crawford.
Robert Stuart, showing as tenant there from at least 1876 - 1885. Guessing the stables were then located at 8 King Street from what we had earlier.
Monica
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Hello Monica
Just to confirm. I have definitely identified Francis's parents via his Baptism Certificate which gives date and place of their marriage.
Was this the 1868 Hackney London marriage details?
Monica
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Re Robert and Jessie being siblings - they shared common parents Robert Alexander Stuart and Ann McDonald - all records found in Scotland Select Births and Baptisms. Had issue Helen b1823, Elizabeth b.1825, Jessie Fordyce b.1826, John b.1829, Robert b.1834, Alice Fyfe b.1836.
Still can't see a reference to Jessie b. 1826! Nor have I seen a mention of the middle name of Alexander for Robert Snr.
Taking this family you have, parents' marriage or banns look to be on 1 August 1820 in
Cromdale and Inverallan and Advie, Inverness-shire
This fits with the following children's births (I am including here as there were more than you mentioned). This info is all from the Old Parish Register index entries on Scotlands People:
1821 Alexander
1823 Helen
1825 Elizabeth
1829 John
1831 Ann
1834 Robert
1836 Alice Fyfe
There is a gap in years between Elizabeth and John. Maybe this is where Jessie would fit it?
Struggling so far to see the family in the early censuses. Jessie in 1851 you will have, already married to David Hall and living in Glasgow.
Monica
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In Robert's 1868 marriage entry in London, he gave his father as Robert, a clothier (a.k.a a tailor).
Just found this from 1841. Place and occupation for father would fit. Everyone showing as born in the county except for Robert Snr.:
Robert Stuart 41, tailor b. Scotland
Anna Stuart 35
John Stuart 12
Robert Stuart 7
Elipat Stuart 5 (from transcript, you would need to check original)
Address: Main Street, Cromdale Inverness
1851 and this possible entry:
Robert Stewart 56, master tailor b. Aberlour Banff
Address: Southside, Grantown, Cromdale Inverness
Maybe this entry for his birth? www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYDY-9BV
I can't tell whether he is married or widowed from the transcript I am looking at.
Grantown was the birth place given by Robert Jnr in his 1881 census entry.
Monica
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This is the last census entry for Robert Snr (1871) before his death in 1874 in Nairn:
Robert Stewart 76 clothier and tailor b. Aberlour Banff
Anne Stewart 75 wife b. Inverallan, Inverness
Address: 9 Rose's Close (carpenter's WorkShop Alongside), Nairn Burgh
Monica
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Looking again for Jessie Fordyce Stuart brings up this 1841 census entry:
William Stuart 30 merchant b. Banff
Jessie Fordyce 40 b. Banffshire
Jessie Stewart 15 FS b. Scotland
Address: Charlestown, Aberlour Banff
Haven't figured it out yet except to wonder whether this could be Jessie ::)
1841 census entries are often frustrating aren't they. Not showing relationships within the household doesn't help in many cases.
Added: the 1851 census shows William and Jessie Fordyce to be first cousins (cousin german). This looks to be William's burial details www.findagrave.com/memorial/203530029/william-stewart
These are Jessie Fordyce's details www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY69-QXZ
Monica
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Yes - the marriage details on Francis' Baptism Certificate are of the 1868 London marriage.
Jessie Fordyce baptism: Born 28 Aug 1826, baptised 7 Sep 1826 - Cromdale etc. FHL No 990724.
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1821 Alexander
1823 Helen
1825 Elizabeth
1829 John
1831 Ann
1834 Robert
1836 Alice Fyfe
Geneanet also has a Donald Fyfe Stuart - along with Alice Fyfe Stuart -
Cromdale and Iveralian and Advie,Inverness ,Scotland
- I wonder if he was a twin of Alice and died ??
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Thank you for all your very helpful suggestions. I am new to this game so very inexperienced.
I agree with you about the Tailor connection and feel our Robert is probably the one born 1794 in Aberlour.
Our Jessie was having children in the 1850s/60s so could not be the one born 1795. Where do you think this Jessie fits in? I would love to find out more about William. And of course, who married Robert Alexander of Raigmore?
The connection with Jessie Fordyice is via a DNA match between my husband, grandson of Francis Stuart, and the Hammond family tree in Australia. We also know that Francis' brother John, was sent to Australia and I have found a death record for him in Ballarat - same place where Jessie died, although she died long before he got there. She had a son called William about the same age as this John.
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Hi Suzette, and welcome to Rootschat. :)
I found this article from the Falkirk Herald 07 June 1947 which might interest you:
Heirs or Claimants wanted
Stirling Public Hall Company,
Limited.
(In Members' Voluntary Liquidation)
Undernoted is a list of persons, regis-
tered as holding shares in the above
Company, whom the Liquidator has not
been able to trace at the addresses
given. Some of the persons concerned
are believed to be dead many years
ago.
The article continues on to ask anyone knowing of the whereabouts, or if deceased, to communicate with the Liquidators)
Number 5 on the list was this:
Mrs ANNIE (or ANN) E.
STUART as Executrix of the late
ROBERT STUART. Note.--Robert
Stuart resided about 1888 in the Golden
Lion Hotel, Stirling, and thereafter at
the Great Northern Hotel, Charing
Cross, London. Mrs. Annie (or Ann) E.
Stuart resided at 32 Mildrean Grove,
Mildrean Park, London, thereafter
at Wyneestead, Steyne Gardens,
Worthing, Sussex, and thereafter
at the Old House Farm, Kildenbro,
Kent*. Robert Stuart appears to have
died between 1887 and 1898.
*Edit: the article is of good quality, and it clearly states Kildenbro, Kent. I cannot find any mention of such a place on Google nor in any of the old newspapers.
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Could Kildenbro be Hildenborough? There’s an Old House Farm in Hildenborough.
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Could Kildenbro be Hildenborough? There’s an Old House Farm in Hildenborough.
It could well be; I imagine any information that reached the Liquidator went through quite the chain of people, so along the way it was misheard. I suppose to too, perhaps she was never there; it could have been some neighbour//relative supplying information on where they thought she may have gone.
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My husband's grandfather Francis Donald Stuart 1877-1961 was born at the Golden Lion Hotel in Stirling to the proprietor Robert Stuart 1834 - and Ann Elizabeth Watt 1835-1950.
Suzette, can you double check on where the information on Ann's death year came from? Did she really make 115 years?
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Thank you Bbart for that article. Interesting - In about 1885 Robert and Ann E Stuart left The Golden Lion in Stirling for The Great Northern Hotel in St Mary le Wigford, Lincoln - not Charing Cross. Ann E was widowed in 1890. She carried on running The Great Northern Hotel in Lincoln until about 1910. The 1911 census shows she has moved to Worthing and is living with a spinster daughter. She died in 1915 and is buried in Lincoln.
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The 1950 death date for Ann E Stuart would have been a typo! Does anyone know anything of the Stirling Public Hall Company Ltd. Might they have owned The Golden Lion Hotel?
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Background here on the Stirling Public Hall Company Ltd www.arthurlloyd.co.uk/StirlingTheatres.htm
Monica
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Thank you.
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Please can someone help me decypher the attached marriage record which I downloaded from Scotlandspeople. The couple I am interested in is Stuart/McDonald.
Thank you.
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Robert Stuart Tailor xxxxx married to Ann McDonald daughter to James McDonald Dreggie 1st August 1820
Not sure on place name where Robert was residing at the time of the marriage. Possibly Grantown which fits with location of Dreggie etc.
Monica
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Thank you. That was how I read it and Grantown would fit in with his son, Robert's, birth place; Tailor fits with his stated occupation on son Robert's 1868 marriage Certificate.
According to ScotlandsPeople, Robert Stuart and Ann McDonald had a daughter Jessie Fordice who I have traced to Australia. I have also found an Australian death record for an Alexander Stuart, whose daughter was Jessie Fordice. That makes identifying Jessie Fordice's father very tricky - Robert or Alexander. Robert and Jessie did have a brother called Alexander - so maybe he went to Australia and they attributed him to Jessie when he died. I must check out that line of thought.