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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: jcmac on Sunday 31 October 21 17:05 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to locate the correct Certificate number of one issued @ 27.1.1911 in Lyttelton,NZ.
Would such a Certificate be prefixed by NZ and have no more than 3 digit numbers following ?
Was there any variation to the numbering system in NZ at that time ?
jcmac.
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Hello.
You may be interested in the listed reply #76 on a thread of mine. Spades our Moderator was able to access a restricted file at Wellington, and gain copies of Mr SHEPHERD'S River Steamers Licence for our research. A great illustrative family heritage item to have a copy of.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=839360.msg7098117#msg7098117 [thread post Includes illustration of one of the two pages]
It was issued by the Marine Department NZ (at Wellington) under the Shipping and Seamens Act 1908 and I found reference to it using an Archway search for info re Mr SHEPHERD.
He was Auckland based. If you would like to see a higher resolution copy of the Licence please PM me with forwarding instructions.
Alan.
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PS.
Hunted out the other photo.
The second page had a certificate number of 3720 dated January 9th, 1918. Examination passed at Port of Auckland. Issued, port of Auckland.
Assume similar for other large NZ ports.
Not sure how long the certificate was valid for, nor how often the certificates were issued.
Alan.
* Edit, better phrased
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Alan,
Thank you for the info provided.
I am only able to view one side of the Certificate which has the NZ logo, has no Number & is headed:-
"New Zealand, Certificate of Competency, as, Master, of a, Home Trade Ship" issued by
"Marine Department of New Zealand" and dated
"Wellington 27 January 1911".
I understood Certificates issued Canada, New Zealand, New South Wales are prefixed Can, NZ and NSW.
jcmac.
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Hello.
It's a while since I was doing that local history research. But if prepared to PM me details I will see if I can find an archives listing. I was impressed with the photos "spades" sent me. From memory they were found in a large archived file covering quite a number of years, and "spades" had to search through the file to find the one I was interested in.
As they were in a different (Wellington) branch to the one I visit, I have no idea if the format of the certificates changed over time, BUT as the governing legislation appeares to have been revised in 1908 there were possibly changes.
Later today I will go back to the original photo sent to me, and reduce it's size and post, so that forum visitors can see an example of the certificates as issued at that date.
Alan.
PS copy attached. Because of the ink bleed, it looks like the second photo was taken from the back of the certificate. I'm just now wondering if this is of the actual certificate issued, and not uplifted by the named individual; OR is the office copy of the issued certificate. Will have to return to the archives reference tonight to find out which was the case.
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Alan,
After posting message at 00.23 I went to check "Archway" and see 3 entries for Seaman, 1 for 1906 and 2 for 1911. Will look in the morning (after bedtime !!).
(Still not clear about Certificate number).
Regards,
jcmac.
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When our Moderator sees this thread he may remember looking the certificate up, and be able to offer more advise.
The ARCHIVES reference number for the source of those SHEPHERD certificate photos was R25818379
Did your NZ Archives finds, just referred to, quote that look up reference number or another?
I will step aside now as I believe "spades" will be in a better position to offer you advise.
All the best, Alan.
Alan.
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Hi Jcmac,
Alan has given you a very full explanation of Master's Certificates, thanks Alan! :D
Have you searched Archway for the individual by name? I believe that's how Alan found the file he asked me to photograph.
Spades.
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More info from Archives on the Seafarer's records held, can be found here.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullSeriesHistory.do
My other question is answered;
QUOTE - All certificates were required to be kept in duplicate, with one delivered to the person entitled to the certificate, and one to be kept by the Department/Ministry.
Therefore a surname search should acknowledge the issuing of a certificate.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ItemAdvancedSearch.do
A to Z Surname listing.
Alan.
PS Some of the volumes of certificates have been digitized and are available to view on line.
Is the copy you have similar to this "Mate's" example ?
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE58629413
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Good morning Alan & Spades.
I had been successful last night (after 00.23) with seach of Archway using only name of mariner which brought up 14 items.
Items 2,3 & 4 relate to the mariner concerned - 3 & 4 to his Master(1911) & Mate(1906) certificates.
I haven't gone any further i.e. "order certificates".
Are the certificates (or linked documents) likely to provide details of his ships prior to application ?
Regards,
jcmac.
ps Alan: The certificate looks exactly like you example.
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Alan,
Thank you for the info provided.
I am only able to view one side of the Certificate which has the NZ logo, has no Number & is headed:-
"New Zealand, Certificate of Competency, as, Master, of a, Home Trade Ship" issued by
"Marine Department of New Zealand" and dated
"Wellington 27 January 1911".
I understood Certificates issued Canada, New Zealand, New South Wales are prefixed Can, NZ and NSW.
jcmac.
Hello again.
Thankyou for the PM acknowledgement. Busy day planned as my area of NZ has today been allowed [just a tad] out to play again. Can now reenter retail shops. Will do more digging tonight.
Re your prefix comments, NZ Au Ca etc, and having looked at some of the certificates available to view on line. I can see no evidence of the NZ prefix being used on the NZ certificates. so wondering if those prefixes were used when foreign ports were recording mariners qualifications. Therefore identifying the country of origin of the certificate number being recorded.
Alan.
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Alan,
I have a list of 105 mariners obtaining Masters & Mates certificates and 5 are numbers prefixed by NSW, NZ and CAN - not a lot !!!!!
NZ409 refers to a Donald McLean b.1856.
The National Archives guide for series BT128 has the "Catalogue Description" for these overseas issues which is rather brief. Didn't look at the National Maritime Museum guide.
I don't expect to get a list of ships linked to these overseas certificates.
What has intreagued me in this case has been the 4 number ticket without a prefix for a foreign issue Certificate - I thought it had to be a mistake !
It looks as if no list of vessels sailed on before date of application is retained for these certificates.
Many thanks for your input.
jcmac.
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Hi again.
Very busy day for me. Not able to reconcile your reference to NZ409 Donald MacLEAN with info supplied herein, and by PM from other sources.
If it is in reference to an item found on a NZ Archives search, please indicate the black typed ITEM ID number or the (Rxxxxxxxx) number that can be found if you consult the order this item page.
I can use that number to go directly to the information you are referring to, and advise if a volunteer may be able to view it for you.
Regards,
Alan.
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Another hello.
I now find tonight, that some of the search links I posted in #8 no longer work for me upon returning to the post.
Using advanced search, and posting W2686 into the ACCESSION box a way down the page should take you to the A to Z list example given. There are over 2,000 surnames therein and only the 1st 1,000 are shown. To find more results the search would have to be refined.
Will return when I can find a new link to the list of types of certificates on offer that I was reading last night.
Sorry about that.
Alan.
Screen capture of the Seamen's Records I was trying to link to is now attached.
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Alan,
Thank you for persevering -
I put NZ409 into the search term for column "Remarks" on my main spreadsheet and 6 NZ ships appeared - Waitemata, Waihora, Waikare, Wanaka, Taviuni & Tarawera.
When I looked at these entries, in full, I found them amongst many more NZ ships, a large number of which come from the limited details obtained from "Mariners and ships in Australian waters" and which also included details from "Lloyds Captains Reg'r Ms18567"
The latter record set entries (Ms18567) for Donald McLean have NZ409 along side that notation.
However, when I look at other Masters & Mates entries extracted from the same source they contain the M & M's normal number - hence my logic to link such as NZ409 in the same manner.
The 3 numbers you asked for are R25744020, R25803388 and R25811342.
I will now try to access the details you refer to in your 10.02 post above.
Many thanks,
jcmac.
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John.
Marintine history and records is not something I have researched, but our Marintine Museum may be able to assist re records kept in NZ.
I do to a lot of NZ press clippings research, and have rounded up some that give evidence of rates of pay within the local coastal shipping trade. 1911 ~ 1915. The ships I have found are different from the above, but my research critera was different.
From the research numbers quoted above, we have been looking in the same area.
Family member was unexpectedly admitted to hospital yesterday, so I have more work in front of me today. Will get back to you when I have a collection that I can on forward.
Alan.
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Alan,
Sorry to hear about your family member hospitalisation - there is no urgency on replies until it suits your situation.
Many thanks for your extra guidance from which I have located the entries for Mate and Master.
page 7.
AAPR 7612 W2686/31 5572 NZ Cert of Comp Mate(HT) Alexander Mackinnon 1906-1911 WGTN
page 16.
AAPR 7612 W2686/12 5572 NZ Cert of Comp Master(HT) Alexander Mackinnon 1911-1911 WGTN
What is your opinion on what information these NZ records will hold ?
I hold partial records for the 6 ships listed above today at 12.12.
jcmac
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In for a cuppa.
Think those are the two certificates I have been referring to via PM. You have come to them by using a different search critera. I have emailed info c/- of the web page you mentioned. Includes screen shots with notations.
You, or a relative, has published a low resolution photocopy of half of one of those certificates. If requested between SPADES and I, we can arrange to obtain good quality photos of both sides of the MATE and the MASTERS certificate. I have already published photo samples to this link, and it is possible to online scroll through many such certificates, where that particular bound volume has been digitised, but unfortunately the two certs you mention are in one that is yet to be done.
A request to the NZ Maritime Museum could also be helpful as they should have experience with marine records. My hobby is farming pioneers, and the early land settlement around me. My Gt Grandfather having come from Clydeside in 1842.
Now have a collection of press clippings mentioning Alexander. Signing on and off various costal traders, plus detailed descriptions of pay rates being paid by the local shipping companies. Will post a link late tonight.
Alan.
RE MARITIME DISPUTE - Arbitration Court Hearing. Press report. Lengthy, with interesting evidence re rates of pay / working conditions.
PapersPast search Subject Alexander MacKINNON [Limit search to date and publication if only wanting the court hearing account]
NZ HERALD April 27th, 1915, page 7, and probably covered by other large papers.
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John.
Over my morning cuppa, I have had a quick look at the link forwarded. I am now aware that your PRIMARY research focus is for 'Registers of Seamen's Tickets' and 'Crew Lists & Agreements' from around the world, to fill the gaps in the British Archived records that you have been accessing.
This is not my field of expertise, but I assume our Marintime Museum volunteers would have some knowledge of NZ civil records that have survived. From experience I have learnt that not all records in our National archive system have been individually indexed when it comes to individuals named therein OR their contact/enrollment details; but all held files, or bound books of old records will be with regard to the type of contents.
The historic Seamen's certificates, apparently over 16,000 of them, are in bound volumes which have been indexed, and some have also been digitised, and can be viewed on line. The certificates in the remainder can be viewed at the holding branch and photographed by the public for free. A few carry notification of access limitations due to preservation requirements. One such SPADES was still able to photo a copy of for some former research of mine.
These are the certificates I have been discussing on this thread and the thread I linked to. They are the official office duplicate copy and contain no other info about the sailor's employment.
The 1915 Arbitration Court press report that I found, I find very revealing about the conditions on the West Coast shipping trade out of Onehunga port on the Manukau, and as it supports some of my pioneer research, have compiled a group of press cuttings based upon the service of Alexander MacKINNON, into a short bulletin. You are welcome to a copy, and I will eventially forward a copy to the local Museum whence he came.
Must dash.
Alan.
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Alan,
Thanks for update and after an evening on NZ Times 1910-20 Ships & Shipping have been gathering info on Tarawera, Huia, Hawera & Takapuna.
Managed to get through 60 lists with 180 to continue tomorrow (now today !!!!).
Will update more fully in morning.
Regards,
John.
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Hello there.
Anyone with a little spare time on their hands, and access to NZ electoral rolls. I am interested in the following to back up my collection of press clippings.
Subject elector: Alexander MacKINNON
Years 1900 – 1920
Have evidence of him on the NI West Coast 1909 – 1915
Ship’s junior engineer, Sailor, Mate, up to Master in that period.
Home port ONEHUNGA, or a Taranaki Port / Roadstead Landing. Probably included Wanganui as a port serviced. Definitely as far south as Patea.
Could have had an interest in a land title at OHURA – OAKURA ?
Not A MacKINNON of Huntly, nor A MacKINNON of Otago, in that period of time.
Must dash.
Thanks if you can,
Alan.
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Hello,
Alexander MacKinnon ss "Hawera" Mariner, 1914/1919 E/R Wellington Central.
Cheers
KHP
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Gee thanks. KHP.
That is him as that was the ship he is recorded as serving on most. Was not expecting Wellington though. Might have to revisit two press clips. Will study late tonight. My busy day not over yet.
Thanks.
Alan
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John, in for another cuppa.
Had a quick look at a copy of A CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE that had been didgitised, and to my eye it appears to offer little info as well. Some interesting letters on file though of some applying for a Masters Certificate being declined because it was believed the full term (3, 4 years etc had not been fullfilled) Saw one where an official noted that quite a few months had been spent sailing a small vessle from the port of Tauranga to a nearby Island. The official deemed that DID NOT qualify as time spent gaining experience in NZ Coastal shipping.
Attached copy of one that has been digitised. Not sure if you have found access to these certs.
Alan.
For the record. John RUSSELL (Home Trade, UK) 1873 attachment.
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Alan,
My reply #16 has entry details and I have attempted to view records but the result was that the entry for no.5572 is not yet digitized.
I am about to continue search in NZ Times extracts "Ships & Shipping" from 101(5.12.1910) of 180(1920) so looks like a few more days work !!!
So far I am linking up McLean and McKinnon men on Tarawara, Talune, Huia, Hawera, Takapuna, Kurow & Rakanoa.
jcmac.
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Morning all.
Does anyone have ready access to the following books.
‘Little Ships of Patea’ by Ian CHURCH; Dunmore Press, Palmerston North 1977.
‘Little Ports of Taranaki’ by Margaret de Jardine; New Plymouth 1992.
Interested in any mention of sailors with a MacKINNON [McKINNON] surname.
Cross checking. Wishing to sort out what I can only assume are typo’s in the conflicting press of the day, regarding the initials of MacKINNON seamen signing on, or off duty, on vessels serving the West Coast Posts.
In particular ss Awahou to Foxton, and ss Hawera to Patea. Press clippings so far found are in the period 1910 to 1918.
A generation earlier there was a Captain Alexander MacKINNON who died at Dunedin in July 1879, As well as being a local settlor of note, he formerly had an interest in the Greenock, Scotland, built ‘Albion’ a two funnel ship trading between New Zealand and the UK.
Alan.
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Morning all.
Can any one locate where Alexander MacKINNON who died [1968/42238] 11/11/1968 aged 79 was buried/cremated.
As the MacKINNON spelling is not that common, in NZ archived records, it could be the same mariner that KHP found on the Wellington electoral roll 1914 - 1919.
I now have evidence of Captain Mc/MacKINNON doing the Patea run in the Hawera and sister ships right up to 1945.
Thanks,
Alan
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Karori
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/221587835/alexander-mackinnon
Added.. tree on ancestry has his 1914 attestation in UK.
If that is correct May not be your man.
My husband’s master mariners coastal trade, were exempted from WW1 as essential workers.
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Thanks.
Interesting reply mckha. Yet to make contact with descendants who provided the original certificate to the Island Museum. There were a number of same named gentleman / mariners on the go, so a little difficult sorting out which was which. However the Mc/MacKINNON name is associated with the Patea to Wellington trade from 1913 to 1945, and the two certificates in that name for NZ coast pre date that.
Already noticed that quite a number of names in the Wellington and Taranaki area WWI BALLOTS where a marine occupation was stated, did not have a listing on CENOTAPH. It was while researching names I came upon the "Ineligible" requirement stipulated in WORKERS WANTED adds.
Must back to the farm accounting, but could not resist seeing, when I paused for a cuppa, if some one had had the time to help.
Finding the history of the little port of PATEA very interesting. In many ways similar to previous Whakatane and Tauria shipping research. Early settlements were heavily reliant upon access by sea.
So Thanks.
Alan.
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When researching shipping in 1918, it is very interesting to see the impact of a pandemic sweeping across a country, and how Public Health reacted, compared to today's COVID experience.
Sailors came into port and unknowingly caught the flu. Ships were disinfected and fumigated, before heading to sea again.
A few days out, and the remaining able bodied sailors on board were forced to seek refuge at the nearest port.
At Wellington emergency hospitals were set up. The Harbour Board turned a cargo shed into an Inhalation Chamber processing 100’s of warfie’s and sailor's per day.
Wharfie’s elected to stand down for a week, and pushed for ships to leave their berth, and ride out the flue, at anchor, in the road steads and channels.
A couple of clips attached.
PS Thankyou KHP for follow up info for Alexander MacKINNON, seaman on the ss Kairaki. Lyttleton, Christchurch for the 1911 electoral roll.
Alan.
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OOps not the one I ment to attach. Try again. Alan.
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My original query has clarified the issue on the numbering of the Certificate and that it is one issued in/by NZ and does not have a NZ prefix - it actually bears a 4 digit numerical registration.
Thanks to F F and KHP.
jcmac.
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Greetings again jcmac.
Thanks for the challenge your request has given me, to occupy myself during lockdown. Another chapter added to my interest in our pioneers.
I will privately forward an update to Tiree etc, should I find more to positvely identify Alexander MacKINNON, and his service on the NZ coastal trade ships. It's a pitty there is no provenance available, about the record retained by the Tiree Museum. I gather it was lodged in the early days.
If warrented, at that time, I will start a new thread in the name of Alexander as I expect this one will have joined the rankes of a "NZ completed thread" by then.
All the best with your on going research.
Alan.